The Bands That Were Never Nirvana

I think we can all agree that, whether you like them or not, Nirvana is one of the most popular bands in the world, despite Kurt Cobain being dead for over ten years and the fact that perhaps half of the new mainstream listeners out there have never even heard of Nirvana (or any of their contemporaries). The reason for this continued popularity? Well, there's the argument that Kurt Cobain's songs meant a lot to many people and continue to do so (a true statement) and there's the fact that Nirvana have basically become another Metallica: a street cred band that kids will flock to and buy all the records of (the highly regarded ones anyway... after all, it's grossly uncool to like any Metallica after the self-titled album) so they can feel superior to all the kids that listen to the rock music provided by the mainstream pop stations (roughly all the big bands that came out after 1998). You know these types. They're usually the really defensive ones who'll tell you to "eat shit and die" over the internet (but never in person, because they lack the testicular fortitude) if you say one wrong thing about Nirvana or in one way infer that Kurt Cobain wasn't the best song-writer ever.

And don't get me started on those who consider Cobain to be as good as John Lennon. Not that you don't have any right to think it or that I don't respect such an opinion, but I think you're crazy. =)

So regardless of what we think of them, we can agree that Nirvana has legacy. Whether we think Kurt Cobain was one of the best song-writers of all time, if not the, or if he and his band are just half a step above regular mall punk, we can all agree that Nirvana were and perhaps still are a musical force to be reckoned with, if only for their popularity.

However, this article isn't about Nirvana. It's about three bands that made the roughly the same records they did, many years before in two particular cases. For one reason or another, they didn't achieve the comercial success that the quality of their work deserved (perhaps because the terms "quality of work" and "comercial success" arguably haven't gone together much since the 70s). All of these records are fairly obscure, underrated, and perhaps not even rated at all. This is my attempt to get the average music fan to expand their horizons, to steer the hardcore Nirvana fan away from crappy imitators like Bush, Staind, and Nickelback, and to bring to light three records (and bands) that I think should be more known and more respected.

Alright, enough with that pretentious crap. I felt like writing the article, so here it goes:

The Band That Would Not Be Famous

The Wipers "Is This Real?" (1980)

Time Period: 1979-1989. The band was briefly revived during the 90s.

Geography: Portland, OR

History Lesson: The Wipers had a revolving door for rhythm section players during their first existence from 1979, but their two constants was their sound: an intense yet melodic post-punk guitar attack and their leader, singer/song-writer/guitarist Greg Sage. Sage was obviously inspired by the speed of the Ramones, but also incorporated pop, rockabilly, and heavy metal into his guitar playing. His songs tended to emphatize rhythm, melody, and lyrical message above all, but he was also a killer soloist, capable of turning an already great song into an excellent one just by bending a few strings, and an intense vocalist, who Kurt Cobain copped a few of his vocal mannerisms from. Arguably, Sage had a better range. "Is This Real?", the Wipers first album, was originally recorded cheaply, but their record label insisted that they go rerecord it in a professional studio. Sage would later say that recording in a real studio disappointed him greatly, but the record remains their definitive punk rock statement before the band would move on to other things. During this time period, the Wipers were considered to be "logger town punk" - the exact image Sub-Pop adopted in the late 80s/early 90s.

The Record: If you've heard Nirvana's "Bleach" (and I trust you have), then you've heard a slightly slowed down version of "Is This Real?". Songs like "Return Of The Rat", "Up Front", "Tragedy", "Don't Know What I Am" and "Window Shop Of Love" are the album's faster songs, expressing feelings of paranoia, hope, and alienation while never letting up their musical intensity. The highly melodic "Mystery" can be considered the Wipers' equivalent of "About A Girl", while "Let's Go Away" and the title track show off the band's 60s roots. There's also the darkly melodic "D-7", the metalish, post-punkish "Potential Suicide", and the visceral closer "Wait A Minute". Lyrically, the album speaks of alienation and finding your place in the world. Samples include: "I don't know what I am/So I'll just put on another sham" and "I promised myself I'd never get hurt/so what am I doing crawling in this dirt". Simply put, this record is punk for gloomy nights stuck inside.

Why They're Unknown: Several Reasons:

01. Greg Sage was severely independent minded and didn't care at all for conforming to things, whether it be the punk scene or the mainstream. He also disliked touring, preferring only to make records and then put them out (though he did play plenty of shows anyway).

02. Geography. They were from Portland. Los Angeles and New York were the happening places in the mid-80s and they was no internet. Believe it or not, your location back then determined how successful you could be.

03. Lack of acceptance. You don't hear the Wipers in the same breath along with contemporaries like Black Flag, Minor Threat, and the Dead Kennedys because their music was considered too "weird" for punk audiences back then and, as such, was never fully acceptted into the genre. They did, however, find a home on college radio.

04. Musical climate. Major labels had given up on trying to get a hit out of punk rock before 1980 rolled around. They would wait until "Nevermind" and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" before they tried again in earnest.

Legacy: Like many 80s indie groups, the Wipers were unknown in their day, but their legendary status has grown over the years. Just don't expect a reunion tour any time soon. Sage also has a (deserved) rep as an alternative guitar god and a great song-writer (as well as a great producer). So committed was he that he actually invented new equipment for himself to use for every record. He felt it important that every record have it's own "feel".

Random Nirvana Connections: Nirvana covered both "Return Of The Rat" and "D-7" from "Is This Real?" during their Sub-Pop era. Both covers were extremely faithful.

Kurt Cobain talked up Greg Sage in the press and even invited him to open for them on tour. Sage politely declined. He then reformed the Wipers and made a mellow, acoustic based album, alledgedly to drive away whatever fans he gained from the Nirvana connection. It worked and once the spotlight was off him, he made a traditional sounding Wipers album and then ended the band for good. Don't let anyone ever tell you that every band/artist wants huge comercial success because obviously that person has never heard of Greg Sage and the Wipers.

The Band That Gave Away Their "Nevermind"

In 1991, "Nevermind" came out and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" became a hit. Mainstream people thought they were hearing a new breed of metal band, while those had their ear to the underground thought that the "college rock sound" had finally made it to the mainstream. While the masses clung to it like they had clung to GnR's "Appetite For Destruction" four years prior, some of the more jaded figured it for the "major label punk album that no one before would make". However, a band did make that major label punk album several years prior... and then kept it from their major label, in favor of their less compromising (and ultimately less comercial material). That band was Husker Du.

Husker Du - "Flip Your Wig" (1985)

Time Period: 1979-1987

Geography: Minneapolis, MN

History Lesson: Husker Du, along with R.E.M., the Replacements, and Sonic Youth, are considered one of the best and most influential underground bands of the 80s. Like the Wipers, Husker Du (consisting of guitarist Bob Mould, drummer Grant Hart, and bassist Greg Norton) were inspired by the original wave of punk, especially the Ramones. They started off as an extremely fast, extremely intense thrash band, but eventually started writing more melodic material (without sacraficing their intensity) and broke into college radio. Their 1984 album "Zen Arcade" and 1985's "New Day Rising" got rave reviews and are now considered alternative rock classics. They also attracted major label attention. Husker Du was one of the first indie bands to sign to a major label (Warner, by the way) and that label wanted the new album they were working on, titled "Flip Your Wig". With "Flip Your Wig", Husker Du had intended to get away from the lo-fi sound of their previous records (they had taken it as far as it could go) and embrace better production values and studio effects. As all fans of the band know, song-writing/singing duties were split between guitarist Bob Mould and drummer Grant Hart, each having an distinctly different voice and attitude.

The Album: To get an idea of Husker Du's sound (though you've doubtlessly heard bands they've influenced), you'd have to understand how their influences clashed. They were inspired to play music by punk rock, but also grew up on tuneful 60s pop music (especially evident is the influence of the three Bands - Beatles, Beach Boys, and the Byrds) and the more lyrical, expressive sound of folk music. Think melodic and loud. All the songs on "Flip Your Wig" are delivered with a loud, distorted, fuzzy guitar and pounding drums, but they all can (and have) been broken down into convincing acoustic versions. Songs like the title track, "Green Eyes", and "Private Plane" have balance between high energy, great riffage, and melodic sense that would dominate the radio a few years later, while "Makes No Sense At All", "Hate Paper Doll", and "Flexible Flyer" basically amount to loud pop songs (a notion Pavement would pick up on). Bob Mould's key moments on the album are the trilogy of "Divide And Conquer", "Games", and "Find Me", all angry/sad reflections on politics, society, and the human soul, while Grant Hart's highly melodic "Keep Hanging On" sees the singer go into a screaming, passionate frenzy (of happiness, believe it or not, rather than heart ache or despair). Two instrumentals conclude the record: the first is loud and grungey, while the second is a beautiful backwards guitar piece that you'd expect more from the Beatles than from a post-punk band. Perhaps the epitome of a loud pop record (and I mean pop in the good sense of the word).

Why They're Unknown: Again, Several Reasons:

01. They gave the damn thing to their indie label. Warner felt they could market FYW, but the band gave it to their indie label out of loyalty. Instead, their major label debut was 1986's "Candy Apple Grey", which was mostly unradiofriendly and depressed.

02. Musical climate. Husker Du's style of music just didn't sell back then. Mainstream listeners were more into Whitesnake and Poison.

04. Unwillingness to compromise. Husker Du were more apt to let the mainstream come to them. It eventually did, but the band had been broken up for several years at that point and thus they couldn't enjoy it.

Legacy: Husker Du and Bob Mould's solo projects are still extremely well known (and played) in the universe of College Radio. They are fondly thought of as one of the best underground bands of the 1980s and as a huge influence to the "alt.rock" explosion of the 90s. Bob Mould is considered an indie guitar god, though he only does acoustic tours and electronica nowadays because of hearing problems.

Random Nirvana Connections: "Territorial Pissings" is an obvious Husker Du homage/rip-off.

Dave Grohl references "New Day Rising" in the lyrics of "Times Like These".

The Little Band That Couldn't (But Remained Cool Anyway)

Mudhoney - "My Brother The Cow" (1995)

Time Period: 1987-present

Geography: Seattle, WA

History Lesson: Before Nirvana became immensely successful, Mudhoney was considered THE Seattle band and the flagship band of the Sub-Pop label. Inspired equally by 60s garage rock and bands like Black Flag and the Stooges, who proved that punk music could be slow moving and still extremely powerful, Mudhoney broke into college radio with their debut single, "Touch Me I'm Sick", but never broke into the mainstream music along with their Seattle contemporaries. When Sub-Pop couldn't afford to pay their bands because of poor fiancial descisions, Mudhoney, like Nirvana, signed to a major label (Reprise, whom they chose because their heroes, Devo, were on that label). Mudhoney made a trio of albums for Reprise before the label dropped them. "My Brother The Cow" was the middle of this triad and was written in the aftermath of grunge's comercialization and Kurt Cobain's suicide. As some know, the guys in Mudhoney were tight with Nirvana (and Pearl Jam, for that matter) as they used to play on the same bills before Nirvana got famous.

The Record: All Mudhoney records are cut from the same cloth, though they each have different leanings. This one is a classicist "grunge" record with heavy roots in punk rock, blues, and 60s pop/garage music. What makes this stand out from other Mudhoney records is the large amount of palpable anger present in the songs and lyrics. Typically, Mudhoney were just extremely obnoxious, occasionally sentimental, and often full of reckless abandon. MBTC, however, is an angry record, tempered with a kind of maturity that Nirvana arguably lacked. "Generational Spokesmodel" tells the honest truth about the corporate grunge acts that co-opted the Nirvana/Pearl Jam sound with lines like "I wanna thank the kids for making me what I am/80% of the gross goes straight to the man". "Fearless Doctor Killers" comments on the murder of an abortion doctor by so-called "pro-life" activists ("I'm all for life/until the bastard's born/after that, he's on his own"). "In My Finest Suit" shows singer Mark Arm gracefully accepting the reality of his own eventual death. "1995" is a homage to one of their greatest influences, Iggy and the Stooges, and it's followed with a 30 minute untitled noise jam that would've made them envious. Perhaps the album's key moment is "Into Your Shtik", a veiled rant at someone who's apparently kissed a lot of ass on the way to success. One could make their own assumptions as to who that person might be. If MBTC isn't the best grunge album of the early 90s (and I'd argue that it is), it's at least the most topical and the most down to earth (something unfortunately rare in music). It's not as famous as "Dirt", "Superunknown", "In Utero", or "Ten", but there's no reason why it shouldn't be.

Why They're Unknown:

01. Mudhoney aren't unknown per se, but most are only aware of their early work. Mudhoney were actually modestly successful in the 90s, usually attracting a big gate number, but that never translated heavily into album sales.

02. Lack of band interest. The guys in Mudhoney weren't particularly careerist. They could've jumped to a major back in 1988 or 1989, but stayed with Sub-Pop until it became unreasonable to do so. Like Husker Du, they were content to do their own thing and let the mainstream come to them.

03. Changing of the trends. By 1995, grunge was on the way out and pop-punk was on the way in.

04. They toured with Pearl Jam. Mudhoney audiences and Pearl Jam audiences were hardly one in the same.

Legacy: Mudhoney are well thought of among Seattle fans and on college radio, but they've sadly seemed to be overshadowed by Nirvana in recent years. Still, they are back on Sub-Pop and remain elder statesmen in the underground.

Random Nirvana Connections: aside from the obvious...

MBTC was produced by Jack Endino, who produced "Bleach". Endino produced many Seattle groups and also led the band Skinyard, which predated Nirvana, Mudhoney, and Green River by several years.

Nirvana used to open for Mudhoney back in the day.

Arguably, "Negative Creep" stole it's chorus from Mudhoney's "Sweet Young Thing Ain't Sweet No More".

POSTED: 12/10/2004 - 10:21 am

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Comments

[kjohnson08]

that was a dumb article

[Klayy]

crap as hell.whats the point, anyway_?

[Bu||eT]

Cool article

[Jello6025]

ummm the Dead Kennedy's aren't weird?

[metalneck]

dude your a dork. Get over it.

[Anachronism]

The guy has a brain and knows his shit. The 10% who'll actually read beyond the slagging nirvana might appreciate it, not much love from anyone else though I feel...

[Encore_God]

I'm glad I finally found an article that demonstrates how unoriginal Nirvana were.

[rockinlewis]

i stopped when you started slagging nirvana. bitch.

[arsonite]

i stopped reading this when you stomped on nirvana. nirvana was an awesome band go put your half ass shitty opinions somwhere else.

[Came As I Was]

..I think this guy has some points..but you cant say Nirvana were unorigional. Either way..Mud Honey and Nirvana, like you said were 'tight'. Their styles were similar, and Mudhoney was on of Cobains favorite bands. If anything the chorus to Negative creep is more of an honor to mudhoney than theft.

and please..do not compare Pearl Jam to Nirvana, especially saying they were on the same level..thats like comparing good charlotte and Metallica..

[Arucard]

arsonite:
i stopped reading this when you stomped on nirvana. nirvana was an awesome band go put your half ass shitty opinions somwhere else.

theres your problem, dickheads like this who refuse to read because you disagree with them. grow up ffs.

good article, has once again made me want to listen to mudhoney. keep meaning to, but...im so lazy...

[AnnaPlaysGuitar]

dude, wtf, kurtz wuz a god!!!..


Just kidding... Thank you for pointing out that Nirvana was nothing special whatsoever- besides that fact that an interesting "suicide" case followed.

Their songs are cute and catchy, but again, nothing special.

[HuskerDu]

Husker Du are excellent! *looks at name*

[Diceman42]

Yay for Anna(playsguitar).

[Nirvana12390]

MAN Kurt Cobain can easily be compared to John Lennon. And if you don't think so you're an idiot. And I would tell you that in person Cause I don't lack the testicular whatever it is. I give this article a 0 out of 100

[Unseen_hero]

2 paragraphs and i didn't bother reading the rest.. don't want to hear more ranting.

oh yea, eat shit and die.

[adam_sg]

i skipped through to look for parts i understood and ended up missing the article. maybe this guy is way ahead of his time :p

[antonmb]

Sunny Day Real Estate should have been mentioned up there.

[rocket_queen888]

huh what the ***?!?!?!

[im not mental]

antonmb:
Sunny Day Real Estate should have been mentioned up there.

yeah, i think they should've.

[i enjoy guitar]

Hahaha to Nirvana13290: You're right. Nirvana CAN be compared to John Lenon. Here I'll do it right now. Nirvana compared to John Lenon is like Mark Hoppus compared to Steve Vai.

heh

[Blood_Covered]

LOL

[NirvanamanX]

I think this guys cool, crazy but cool.you must be into contrversy. to blatantly state that you don't think that Kurt was an awesome songwriter. That other Nirvana Kid was a retard by the way. I wouldnt go so far as to say that Kurt to Lennon is Hoppus to Vai. because honestly "I wanna Hold Your Hand" has got nothing on "Heart Shaped Box" The beatles are terrible, Twist and shout was good tho

[rockpunkzer0]

.....stupid?

[kookooboy_752]

hey, eat shit and die, and if i heard you saying shit like this in public, bet your ass i would say it to your face.

[atc228]

nice, i just thought ud be slamin nirvana (and u sorta did a bit) but if u get passed that i enjoyed it, ima see if i can find some of those guys' stuff, thnks

[PlasticChair123]

MAN Kurt Cobain can easily be compared to John Lennon. And if you don't think so you're an idiot. And I would tell you that in person Cause I don't lack the testicular whatever it is. I give this article a 0 out of 100

Well if that means im an idiot then so be it...but John Lennon was (in my opinion) a considerably better lyrisist than Kurt Cobain, mya i also add that i like Nirvana, and Kurt was quite original

[Bustout90]

i give this guy credit he stated his opinion just waiting for you guys to critisize him i agree with him on some things but if you look at lennons solo career he had a secret meaning behind each of those songs but cobains song were easy to get a meaning out of see i like nirvana dont get me wrong but some of his song were kindof ripoff like listen to killing joke and the song eighties then tell me what that song sounds like because killing joke was before nirvana for those who dont know so talk to me then one of nirvana most popular song sounds like a song no one ever got to hear because they just got to mainstream

[Bustout90]

o yeah just a little correction for everyone it was kurdt not kurt just like how krist was not spelled chris

[Srg_Elvis]

Nice article,and for you hardcore nirvana fans should relly get past the intro to discover new band,but how could you not mention pavment but once,you could do a whole article on how they infuenced Nirvana(id just like to note that my dad is a big grung fan and loves pavement and has sayed on numorus occasions that nirvana borrowed a lot from them).

[Srg_Elvis]

I think this guys cool, crazy but cool.you must be into contrversy. to blatantly state that you don't think that Kurt was an awesome songwriter. That other Nirvana Kid was a retard by the way. I wouldnt go so far as to say that Kurt to Lennon is Hoppus to Vai. because honestly "I wanna Hold Your Hand" has got nothing on "Heart Shaped Box" The beatles are terrible, Twist and shout was good tho

Dude,the beatles best songs are the ones that where not popular,also Lennon solo career had some of the best lyrics,better than nirvana did. I dont like nirvana,but thats only because i usualy like mostly upbeat music or something relly weird.

[ooohyeah]

i hate nirvana. you cant compare lennon to cobain. end of

[letitbenaked]

lennon and the beatles were spokesmen for a post-war generation (WWII) and the anti-war generation (vietnam). cobain, at best, reached out to teenagers looking for people to share in their misery. nirvana was good, but lennon and cobain are on totally different levels.

oh, and twist and shout was a cover song.

[rachellee]

Ok article.. i hate bands that become popular and everyone loves them.. It takes away the edge or something.. But Nirvana will never die, thats for sure

[backinblack478]

look, I love Nirvana, but damn, Kurt's dead, you can't keep worshipping him.... Secondly, to all those people who hate bands that made it big, you shouldn't hate all bands that are popular, I mean look at Metallica or Maiden or even Nirvana.... there must be something there, or they wouldn't be popular, don't bite someone's head off just because you do or don't like someone else's music.

[shaqwheelchair]

nirvana just simply isnt that good if your gonna whine about comparisons im mad they compared nirvana to husker du. any the only good thing to come out of nirvana was grohl.

[scumfuc_69]

The only thing I liked about this article was that the author tried to teach us about some unkknown bands...but it was a poor list of bands.

Plus comparing them with Nirvana - what's the point
there?!?

[mtl's_god]

that was WAY to long
what the hell (qoute):
it's grossly uncool to like any Metallica after the self-titled album
who gives a shit about whats cool

[Luy]

'Return Of The Rat' was recorded on 4/7/92, aka, more than 2 years after signing with Geffen. Get your facts straight.

[agracer]

What the ***s that all about

[razorkiss]

it is so sad that none of you think.
you all make up your minds with no thought put into it.
you like to bitch and moan about something you couldn't finish reading due to your A.D.D. and macho insecurity.

but then again you guys are all probally only 12 or 13
with little or no reasoning or social skills.

[sleevenote]

Good article, man.
You are right, Kurt Cobain was not even half as good as John Lennon was and also didn't have half of the cultural influence that Lennon had.
I hate those people listening to Nirvana just because some idiot in school does...
Go listen to some real music!

[ShoeLaces907]

Hey, here's a few responses:

Re: Dead Kennedys. They had some weird songs, but they were also the most popular punk band of the 80s. How weird could they have been?

Re: Sunny Day Real Estate. I'm not really into them, so therefore I shouldn't be writing about them.

Re: Pavement. Great band. Considered including "Slanted and Enchanted", but didn't because the article was long enough as it is.

Scum_fuc: Sorry you didn't agree with the bands I covered. The Nirvana comparisions exist for a few reasons: 1) All three bands had similar sounds, but not nearly as much comercial success and 2)I felt the article needed a common thread. The overall point was to intro the average Nirvana fan to more obscure bands of good worth. Not very well-thought out you might say? I agree. I wrote the damn thing in about fifteen minutes.

Luy: Meh.

mtl'_god: Mostly everybody. Anyway, you took it out of context. I was being sarcastic. If someone likes new Metallica, then fine by me.

Came As I Was: Where the hell did I compare Nirvana and Pearl Jam?

[Michaelpalkowsk]

Kurt cobain is a legend and nevermind is an utter classic POINT MADE

[pagemonkey]

i like nirvana but i wish they weren't so overrated

[Vinura]

i dont get it

[deadpresident]

What about FLIPPER?

[EarthAD]

pagemonkey:
i like nirvana but i wish they weren't so overrated

my thoughts exactly. Half of you Nirvana fans dont even know the names of the bandmembers other than Kurt.

[Scourge441]

Interesting article.

But people have to stop insulting Kurt Cobain. Yes, I admit he wasn't that great of a guitar player, and I admit he can't compare to Lennon, but he was a damn good songwriter in his own right and should be respected.

I'll have to check out those bands. I've heard of Mudhoney, but not Husker Du and The Wipers.

[Scourge441]

my thoughts exactly. Half of you Nirvana fans dont even know the names of the bandmembers other than Kurt.

Krist Novoselic on bass and Dave Grohl (who is now leading the Foo Fighters, who rock) on drums. Chad Canning did drums on Bleach. Pat Smear did some stuff with the band. Jason Everman was their first real rythym guitarist, even though he didn't do any work on any of the albums.

I guess that means I'm one of the Nirvana fans that knows who the other members were.

[Metalology]

what?

[nirvana666]

this guy rlly knows his shit yet everyone critisizes him...ironic...i too wish nirvana wasnt so overrated

[Melchior]

The reason people like nirvana is so other annoying "alternative" kids will like them, the music is shite and kurt is a whiny junky

"i hate myself and i want to die" - Kurt
"i hate you and i'm glad you died" - Me

this is a great article,not becasue of the nirvana stuff but because of it tries to get shelterd teen spirit fans to open their myoptic little eyes and see that a band dosn't have to be stupidly famous and overated to be good...

*deep breath*

[brokenhopes001]

The reason Nirvana became such a huge hit is because they were one of the first grunge bands to hit the mainstream. Kurt's guitar playing, although it may be simple power chords, did bring power chords into majority in most songs afterward. Before then bands like Guns and Roses and Metallica played the kickass solos that where in every 80's-early 70's song there was.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say here besides the fact that Kurt had a keen sense of thinking on the world and subjects around him. His lyrics prooves this.

But we can go on and on about all the bands ever on there good sides and bad but really if the music makes you happy then screw what everyone else says.


..-The Guy In The Corner

[LoveBuzz]

Krist Novoselic on bass and Dave Grohl (who is now leading the Foo Fighters, who rock) on drums. Chad Canning did drums on Bleach. Pat Smear did some stuff with the band. Jason Everman was their first real rythym guitarist, even though he didn't do any work on any of the albums.

I guess that means I'm one of the Nirvana fans that knows who the other members were.

HA! You also forgot that Dan Peters of Mudhoney was a Drummer for Nivana, he can be heard on the song "Sliver"

I personally found this to be a good article.

[levicomics]

What?

[stellardude531]

all u tards who couldnt uderstadn this are exactly that- tards. his point was completly clear, adn was easy to read. nice articel, good point

[fender rocker16]

lol that was pretty funny. the thing about nickelback is so true too. theres some other shit new grunge nirvana imitation band but i cant seem to think of the name right off hand.(haven't listened to the radio for a while) oh well. good article!

[scottish]

stellardude531:
all u tards who couldnt uderstadn this are exactly that- tards. his point was completly clear, adn was easy to read. nice articel, good point

first learn to type secondly any one who spells understand -uderstadn shouldn't be calling anyone a tard

[ZuluWarrior182]

d

[ZuluWarrior182]

did that to see if my account was workin

[ZuluWarrior182]

ok i thought this was a good article and u shouldnt trash it cause u dont want to hear someone talk bad about nirvana. come up with a better arguement like me.
One thing i have to say about this article is that what punk/grunge band wasnt influenced by Husker Du? Nirvana defiently wasnt the only band. So Nirvana played a song with fuzzed distortion( terroristal pissings) that doesnt mean they stole it. Nirvana was influenced by the beatles too does that mean they stole 'about a girl' from them? All bands have to get an idea from something and just because Nirvana sounds like a few bands that didnt make it big, doesnt mean...
1) they stole their idea
2) they dont deserve the attention they got
Kurt was known for wearing shirts that had underground bands on them to support them! I have listened to the wipers, husker du, and mudhoney and personally i tihnk Nirvana is much better. ALthough i think here comes sickness is an excellent song. Check those bands out though they are worth a lsiten.

[Nirvanadude777]

Nirvana was and is awsome. I do agree that John lennon was better than Kurt but Nirvana's music is a lot better than most music nowadays.

[nirvana138]

you used too many big words this article was hard too understand, i like nirvana alot but ill admit they are very very very very overated

[aloveforenemies]

i enjoy guitar:
Hahaha to Nirvana13290: You're right. Nirvana CAN be compared to John Lenon. Here I'll do it right now. Nirvana compared to John Lenon is like Mark Hoppus compared to Steve Vai.

heh

A. Mark Hoppus is a bassist, Steve Vai is a guitarist.

B. Nirvana was just horrible. All Their songs sound the same, Kurt Cobain had a very annoying voice.

C. When I will admit Kurt Cobain was a good song writer, who was the idiot who voted him one of the best guitarists ever in some ridiculous magazine. Saying Kurt Cobain was one of the best guitarists is just like St Anger was good quality recording with tons of talent and work behind it with many many solos. Kurt was FAR from the most amazing guitarist. All their songs are very easy to play, and don't show off that much musical skill.

I Like this article cause it showed some good talented bands.

[aloveforenemies]

And I don't care if I pissed anyone off with that post.

[Prospect]

Nirvana = Unoriginal ***wits

[ShoeLaces907]

ZuluWarrior: Stolen from Husker Du? No, I wouldn't go that far. Was Kurt trying to imitate Bob Mould's trademark blankets of fuzzed out distortion? Yes, I think so. That's why I called it a "homage/rip-off" and not just a rip-off.

[Eddy Vanhalen]

Good Artical you really did your resarch

[pearl_fangs]

First of all you guys, who cares about what people think about Nirvana, whether you think they were/are "great" or "shit". Everyone has an opinion; the whole world is not going to agree on one thing. I mean look at the stupid War Against Terrorism. Ok off the subject a bit, but i for one think that Nirvana are great. And for a fact there isn't going to be a band that you can say are totally original. You have to learn something from somewhere! Saying Kurt is as good/not as good as John Lennon is total bullshit. Come off it guys, they are two totally different people. It seems like nowadays people spend more time bitching/comparing/criticising other bands and whatnot, and less time appreciating the actual music and talents (or no talent eg. Pop Britney spears etc. etc). All I'm trying to say is that its just an article, its just someone else's opinion. This is my opinion. And the thing about Kurt Cobain being the best guitarist, sure I'll agree he isn't the best guitarist, he just managed to make people feel something. (Well someone voted for him as best guitarist). Good article. Great statements. Just don't take everything so seriously. Whatever makes you happy . Cheers!!!

[slash=king]

man, good article,

[srimental]

wat was dat about

[rasker]

man, how do you dumbasses manage to breathe? this is an excellent article written in a good and interesting way (a bit long though, could leave some things out). and regardless of oppinions that the author or you all have the article is good. music is and will allways be about oppinions, and most people don't agree with you so stop beeing a dick about it. I liked the read, but I suggest to the author never ever to post something on this site ever again. since only a marginal percent of the people who read it actually gets it.

[Dark ARTT]

o yeah just a little correction for everyone it was kurdt not kurt just like how krist was not spelled chris

Wrong Kurt chose to spell his name Kurdt Kobain, his real name was Kurt Cobain....btw although a crazed Nirvana fan i think that some of the guys on here should accept other peoples veiws...Kurt isnt everyones god..also i actually quite enjoyed the artical

[levicomics]

aloveforenemies:
And I don't care if I pissed anyone off with that post.
[POSTED: 12 December 2004 - 20:33]|

You don't? Okay.

[levicomics]

YOU PISSED ME OFF YOU SON-OF-A-BITCH, BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN BURN, U SUK.

[DavetheInvincib]

no mention of the pixies or jesus and mary chain? good article though 5*s

[clichealias]

Excellent article

[IdrinkBleach]

Good article, but you skipped a lot of really kickass bands, and not to sound like your definition of a nirvana fan but, eat shit and die, hah. But really, there are some really good bands you skipped out on, the melvins, janes addiction, the pixies. Nirvana didn't try and be what it became, it didn't want to be the "Band of generation X" they wanted to be a sub band. And even kurt in his journals admits he hates smells like teen spirit - becouse it has a uncanny resembelence to Blue oyster cult's Godzilla. And that come as you are was basicly a pixies rip off. Nirvana was a sweet band, Kurt was really talented, and one of the best song writers of any time. They are my favorite band, but there not the only band that deserves credit, the whole seatle scene was pretty sweet, but grunge/hardpunk goes all the way back to the stooges, even velvet underground if you think about it. Good article though. You didnt give enough people enough credit though. 5 stars my friend.

[ShoeLaces907]

^Supposedly, "Come As You Are" was actually a rip-off of an 80s band called Killing Joke. There was even a law suit over how similar the riffs in each song were, but the members of Killing Joke dropped the suit out of sympathy for Frances Bean after Kurt died. I haven't heard that particular Killing Joke song myself though. For those interested, the song is called "Eighties".

I figured the Pixies would get mentioned. I considered writing something about "Trompe Le Monde" (their least popular record), but again, I think it would make the article way too long (more so than it already is) and besides the Pixies aren't all that obscure anymore. Ditto for Jane's Addiction.

[Nirvana12390]

"This guy knows his S***" My buttocks. He knows nothing. If he knew anything about Nirvana he'd know they are one of the greatest bands ever. Sure Kurt wasn't the best guitarist in the world but if you learned the words to the songs and understood their story then you wouldn't be writing this crap. GAH this article confuses me and p's me off at the same time

[Jerman]

I lost all respect for the world when somebody said "the beatles were terrible."

God.

[dandynik]

Hahaha to Nirvana13290: You're right. Nirvana CAN be compared to John Lenon. Here I'll do it right now. Nirvana compared to John Lenon is like Mark Hoppus compared to Steve Vai.

ah man, i about pissed my self when i read that.

this was an awesome article,i love nirvana and Kurt was a good song writer, but in all honesty they were crappy musicians (minus dave grohl) and comparing him to lennon is f?ucking blasphemy. And uh, nirvana 12390, it confuses you because you're a f?ucking moron.

[CryingNut]

Nirvana12390

to say nirvana is the greatest band is just an opinion
how could you have the greatest band without a great guitarist or musician?
to say any band is the greatest is just an opinion
this article deserves more than these stupid comments
what confuses you anyways?

[Nirvana12390]

I just said that Kurt Cobain wasn't the best guitarist in the world, now you're putting words in my mouth by saying I said he wasn't a great musician. Jimmy Page wasn't the best ( he was close) but that doesn't mean Led Zeppelin wasn't great. I'm confused naturally and you're right i guess it is opinion

[Xerothunder]

Nirvana sucks dick compared to the Beatles.

[Slash-Page]

your a strange article writer

[Somthin chronic]

Excuse me, your saying nirvana is about kurts good lyrics. lets take Smells like teen spirit, i love the song, its got a good rythem and kurts grunge voice does well for the song, but i'll be the first to say the lyrics in that song are darn bull****. He goes on about mosquitoes n ****. From this i'd have to say that people don't like them because of kurts "brilliant" lyrics. Overrated

[Duff_McGee]

Norvana is thee most overrated band in history and this article was pointless.

[Duff_McGee]

Nirvana* ^^

[levelwisedallas]

Lol, the eat shit and die thing in this was funny. I almost felt like I might be one of those, but I'd definitely say it to someones face. In fact, I live for that. I disagree, and as for annaplaysguitar, Nirvana was something special. Millions of intelligent, non-bandwagon types ***ing agree. There's NO way the popularity was by accident. It may be nothing special to you, but it is special to alot of people. So stfu for once, I'm sick of people putting down Nirvana, especially considering Nirvana and Kurt stand for everything you ***ing don't.

[RockThe40oz]

Who somebody mentioned Flipper in these responses? That band that made that "ha ha ha" song? God that song gets on my nerves.. as for Dead Kennedys being weird.. yes.. they were very weird.. if you said they aren't, check out songs like insight and kill the poor and pretty much any other song.. not so much weird as controversial, but if you've ever seen biafra perform live, he's the weirdest guy ever..

By the way.. Nirvana sucks, grunge sucks, suicide sucks, and Kurt Cobain sucks

[PageEnthusiast]

personally, if i were a band, i'd consider "you were never nirvana" to be a compliment.

[vinniebeast]

C. When I will admit Kurt Cobain was a good song writer, who was the idiot who voted him one of the best guitarists ever in some ridiculous magazine. Saying Kurt Cobain was one of the best guitarists is just like St Anger was good quality recording with tons of talent and work behind it with many many solos. Kurt was FAR from the most amazing guitarist. All their songs are very easy to play, and don't show off that much musical skill.

Just because they are easy to play it means they arent good? You really ought to slap yourself for saying that as some classic songs are simple melodies such as the intro to 'Smoke on The Water' and 'Whole Lotta love' those two are classics but everyone and there step sister could play them on geetar.

[Dlawso]

I hate this article, besides when you diss Nirvana, because Nirvana is overrated like FUCK!!!
They dont diserve so much credit.

[Scourge441]

HA! You also forgot that Dan Peters of Mudhoney was a Drummer for Nivana, he can be heard on the song "Sliver"

Cool. I never knew that.

[deapcyfer]

OK, I really hate Nirvana and all you sheepish Nirvana fans, but this article sucked. Although it does point out the fact that Nirvana wasn't that great to even come up with comething original. The comments posted however are intriguing. Pearl Jam is by far a better band than Nirvana, they just didn't have the Pop sing along melodies that Nirvana had...and comparing Kurt Cobain to John Lennon? Give me a ***ing break. There is no comparison, You stupid Nirvana ***ers just need to get it through your head, just because someone killed themself, doesn't make them a great musician. Anyway you look at it, Nirvana was just force-fed MTV bullshit that all you sheep just latched onto for dear life and now because of them, the trend of not learning how to play your instrument before you record an album was started, look what they started, DEATH TO NIRVANA!

[deapcyfer]

oh wait, that already happened, lol

[hypocrisy]

horrible article, no point in it at all.

[MisterChainsaw]

hm...Nirvana was a good band. But, he doesn't hold a candle to John Lennon, I mean come on, if you take the best Nirvana lyric every written it could not hold to Blackbird or Imagine.

[deapcyfer]

uhh, Paul McCartney wrote Blackbird there bud MisterChainsaw

[MisterChainsaw]

I meant as a whole, The Beatles and John Lennon, then Lennon and Coabin with Imagine

[MisterChainsaw]

Cobain*

[p00dy]

Anachronism:
The guy has a brain and knows his shit. The 10% who'll actually read beyond the slagging nirvana might appreciate it, not much love from anyone else though I feel...

yea. people are entitled to their own opinions. "i stopped when you dissed on Nirvana. take your opinions somewhere else" what because you like nirvana and he made a negative comment towards them, he's not allowed to post? shut your mouths seriously. they were a great band, as is the melvins, mudhoney, all them suckers. they aren't nearly as popular as they were only because the style died out. although everyone says grunge died when nirvana died, it's not true whatsoever. all the other bands that were grunge were not as popular as nirvana, and jsut didn't want to become 'sellouts' and join big record labels and go touring. blah blah blah. people need to open their eyes.

[p00dy]

back in the late 80's and early 90's, if you were a seattle based band, you were popular. that's just how it was.

[guitar&drumguy]

how can people compare lennon and cobain? they are in 2 different genres. Lennon was great, Cobain was great. Lennon wrote better lyrics and could sing quite better but Cobain had those pounding, angry riffs and a unique voice. I hate those posers who say a band is the best band ever when the only song they have heard is "Smells like teen spirit". They don't know what music is, atleast enough to critize another band. f-ing idiots

[Nirvana12390]

HEY. I can name more Nirvana songs than you can count man. Don't test my loyalship to them. I bet you can't name 10.

[SaveFeriss]

Great read. And you're right Cobain cannot be compared to Lennon.

Thanks for reminding me of Mudhoney too. Cheers.

[WaitinForMyRuca]

This has some meaningful stuff, but alot of it is crap, by the way BUSH KICKS ASS!

[hardcore_mike]

i never thought cobain was thats good i think it was vince neil who said "i never understood the whole nirvana thing why is it good music, its depressing shit" and i agree cobain dosent have any thing on lennon pete townshed jimmy page rober plant john paul jones. also he was bad guitarest any one could play like him i dont see what the big deal was.....

[DE Guitar]

Nirvana=Overrated

[breadfan82]

Let's dissect this, shall we? This article should have been called "Why I'm angry about Nirvana's Success" or "Gee, I Wish People Liked the Same Bands as I Do." The whole Lennon vs. Cobain thing? How can you compare two completely different styles well enough to construct a valid argument? Well, I suppose in the 60's "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" was kind of like saying "Rape Me" today. Neither Lennon or Cobain were really plagiarists, so suffice to say that they both brought good and inspirational music to millions. So Mudhoney and Husker Du didn't have as much stroke as Nirvana or Pearl Jam. Sorry! We can't direct the masses. People liked Nirvana and Pearl Jam, not to say they didn't like the others, but the pop music engine was being spearheaded by those bands back then. There's always going to be a large number of bands who float around under the radar that never get the exposure that they may or may not deserve. With all the who-opened-for-who crap and sickeningly opinionated points referring to 'who's better?' aside, the bands he mentioned were around before grunge blew up. Personally, I hear alot more Alice In Chains songs on the radio than any of the bands in the afforementioned article. Nirvana and Pearl Jam were credible and legitimate musical talents. Whether they were overrated or corporate rock whores is your desicion as the listener. Why not sample all of this music and decide for yourself? That is what it's all about....or have we all forgotten?

[Nirvana12390]

Thank You Breadfan you should write your own article

Deguitar= Idiot

[ShoeLaces907]

Breadfan, you didn't dissect anything. You just put a lot of words in my mouth.

Tell me, where in the article did I make a complete anti-Nirvana stance and say they didn't deserve their success? Hmm? Nowhere. I was fair and represented both views pretty well I thought. Ex: I said that Cobain's songs meant a lot to many people, which was true. It just proves my point: if you don't slip in, "COBAIN WAS THE BEST SONG-WRITER EVER" in there somewhere, people will give you shit for whatever reason. I don't have anything against anyone who loves Kurt Cobain's music and wouldn't think snidely of that person's taste in music at all (unless they also liked Creed), but I personally don't think he was all that great and therefore I will never write anything inferring that he is great. But I never outright bashed him or his song-writing either. So, please, all you "STOP HATING NIRVANA"...please *** off.

Secondly, where did I ever explicitly say that Wipers/Husker Du/Mudhoney should have been in Nirvana's place? Again, nowhere. Maybe in some alternate universe. They didn't breakthrough for various reasons and I listed possible reasons as to why in each case. The point of the article was not to say that these groups should've been famous (could the Wipers have ever been a mainstream band anyway?), but rather that they should not be overlooked AND, hey, why waste your money on corporate pushed crap like Nickelback when there's plenty better out there "under the radar" that many haven't heard of yet?

Lastly, you can't write an article without some form of your opinion seeping in. I thought I kept most of my "sickening" points down to a minimal, but I honestly think that my article was far less "sickeningly" opinionated than the post you replied to it with. Nirvana and Pearl Jam were credible musicans? Alright, because you say so? See what I mean? Everything on the internet related to music (at the very least) is completely opinion based. If you don't like, I advise you get over it.

[Strummin4him]

wtf mates....what was this for...left me very confused...but good job typing it up`!

[mongbrain]

mudhoney unknown?

[Bulletbass man]

hey wats ur ***n problem saying nirvana aint good and shit i like all thos other bands but they aint near as good as nirvana and its not sweet little thing ain't sweet no more its daddys little girl ain't a girl no more thats the ***n song ass hole or atleast thats version i heard ass wipe hey by the way ur a prick

[AC/DC-KID7]

good job

[Mullet28]

Whoeva rote this u were rite one of the first posts is "i stopped readin it afta u started slaggin nirvana. bitch". i personlly think nirvana is one of the greats and i was drawn to them by smells like teen spirit but unlike most little numptys i didnt stop there i listen to everything by nirvana i can get my hands on. but the point is that the guy who rote this justed wanted to share bands he thought were like nirvana. no harm in it. u dont like it tough its been posted on the site now not much u can do bout it sept bitch from ur house behind ur comp. i liked it gives a insite into new stuff i havent heard before. if ulot were real music fans u wud start lookin for this stuf to try and broaden ur horizons instead of living in the cocoon of pop rock mainstream. shoelaces907 could you tell me where i could find these albums please. (and if that dont make sense then meh)

[Bulletbass man]

yes he did like to say bands that were like nirvana but they still weren't as good but i do like em exspeically mudhoney

[Bulletbass man]

oh by the way mullet28 do u really have a mullet

[ShoeLaces907]

Mullet28: You can probably find the records at your local indie music store. If you're especially interested in the Wipers record, I'd suggest buying it from zenorecords.com, which is Greg Sage's record label. It comes in a box set along with two other classic Wipers records and Sage only charges $17 for it, so it's pretty much like getting three records for the price of one. The Husker Du and the Mudhoney record can both be found fairly cheap as well.

Bulletbass man: You're not even worth responding to.

[Bulletbass man]

yeah i am u ass

[FlyingFuc!<]

kurt cobain was a horrible guitar player. and as for songwriter,ehhh.....I don't know what's the big fuss over Nirvana. it's nothing wonderful.

[Nirvana12390]

It's obvious you don't know crap about Nirvana so I would stop judging.

[Jerman]

Bulletbass man, I hate your life. Go away.

[GLADIATOR]

WHO CARES ???..

[NoFxMIke]

Informative article. Its obvious (by the "admiration" our fine writer of this article has endured) that Nirvana touched many lives with their music.

I would also like to point out that power chords were discovered in the 1970's. MANY rock, metal, punk, (insert favorite genre here___..) songs used power chords before Nirvana. Lets face it. Power chords sound well, powerful. Thats why bands use them!!!.. If it is simple to play and sounds good...so be it.

[NoFxMIke]

Oh and if you want to burn me on the time period...have at it. I'd like for someone to say the 60's that great!!! even earlier.

[NoFxMIke]

thats*

[Axl_Duff_Izzy]

Hahahahaahaaaa, erm that was laughter at the state of bulletbasstard's intelligence,
and to the people like rockinlewis that can't even begin to understand that Nirvana were NOT special
you should really get some balls and a decent sized cock

[ShoeLaces907]

NoFXMike: I've heard Kinks and Stooges songs from the 60s that used power chords, so there ya go.

[daryljmorris]

I'd jus like to say that Kurt might not have played some of the greatest guitar solos ever, but the rythym and energy in his guitar playing is rarily matched. I think he was voted one of the best guitar players ever because of his live performances not his recordings.

[Donahue2]

you're all idiots.

[jamers_]

i love Nirvana, thanks for the article. to me, any article on Nirvana and the likes of are worth reading.

[Something_Vague]

Kurt was a hack at playing guitar, he was a hack at singing, and the only thing decent he did was write lyrics, were almost mediocre by todays standards. Dave Grohl will always be the best thing of that band period, Kurt Cobain was a selfish drug attic that commited suicide for his own bands success, knowning he will be considered a martyr for the new age and a "god." This is by all means rediculous, his music is mostly rip-offs of such bands as / The Pixies, Mudhoney, Husker Du, The Cure(lyrics), and many other bands including Tears for Fears and Dead Kennedys, Nirvana was a lucky band like say, Good Charlotte, that hit it big with a major label and scored gold because of production values and major label editing, but alas that is not a bad thing, I fully support major record labels, the only thing I despise is bands like "Nirvana" becoming basically the greatest band in the past 20 years basically in most of "kids" eyes. I say kids because anyone with 1/2 a brain would know all this, Nirvana was mediocre at best...

[daryljmorris]

lol wot a dick. You might not be a nirvana fan but if you can't see that they were a great band, then maybe u should find a different hobbie rather than music coz u obviously dun know shit about it. I have a mate that doesnt like nirvana's music but he still appreciates wot they did. Have you seen Nirvana live? their leeds/reading performance in 1991 gets voted the best live performance ever in most decent magazines.

[JC 2K3]

cool, you mentioned Husker Du, I love them! Their indie label was SST, don't diss them for not wanting to be mainstream, it was what they wanted.

Oh and Grohl was not the only good thing to come out of Nirvana, Krist Novoselic joined Curt Kirkwood, the lead singer/guitarist one of Kurt's most admired bands, Meat Puppets(Remember Lake of Fire, Plateau and Oh Me from Unplugged?) and Bud Gaugh, the drummer from Sublime to form the alt rock band Eyes Adrift, unfortunately their album only sold 20,000 copies and they split up now, but they are a pretty good band, and since they released their album independantly you can download the whole thing from their site(www.eyesadrift.com), I particularly like the song Alaska.

[Nirvana12390]

hackatplaying guitar

Your an idiot. If you had half the talent Kurt had when playing a solo or anything, then I wouldn't be posting this comment. Good Day!... I said good day

[nirvana4lf]

ok this article is a little biased against nirvana. considering nirvana unoriginal is really ignorant. they just built on top of what they had, the evolution of music. also you forgot in the end that Aaron Burkhart (mudhoney drummer) was their drummer in 1987 at their first show.

[Jerman]

Nirvana, if anything, had more fame than they should have. Which is pretty much why Kurt couldn't handle it. I still am of opinion that Dave Grohl was the best thing to come out of Nirvana, but I won't go as far as saying that Kurt's suicide was intended as martyrdom. He was definitely a talented individual, but, like Hendrix, I definitely do not think everything would be better if Kurt's death hadn't happened. So I think it's about time everybody wrapped up this discussion and go back to either enjoying Nirvana or not enjoying Nirvana by themselves. This thread is so tired.

[breadfan82]

To ShoeLaces907,

Let me first begin by apologizing. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear on what I thought were 'sickeningly opinionated' points. I was referring to comments posted earlier on the board, and not to your article. The "dissect" comment was also directed towards all of the people who always think they have the facts and chop everyone else's input to slivers. I personally don't think that Cobain could even sharpen Lennon's pencil, let alone compete in songwriting, so why rape yourself by saying Cobain is a songwriting god if you don't believe it? I for one never asked that of you. Pearl Jam and Nirvana achieved their credibility not because I say so, but because their fanbases (not unlike Mudhoney, etc) began while they played crappy little keg parties and clubs, and then expanded to the point where they became megastars. The other bands are credible as well, whether I say so or not, because it is no one person's yay or nay that makes them great, it is the collective fanbase that deems them credible or otherwise. Before you throw this "because you say so?" garbage at me, why is Nickelback so terrible? Because you say so? I hate Nickelback as much as you do, but someone else may not. If it is corporately-backed shit, then fine, but let it be that because it is, and not because you say so.

Your 'random Nirvana connections' lead the reader to believe that you think Nirvana owes something to the other bands. (i.e. 'Territorial Pissings is an obvious Husker Du homage/rip-off') and "The Band That Gave Away Their Nevermind". The very name of the article is "The Bands That Were Never Nirvana", which tells me and maybe others that you either resent Nirvana's success or the other bands' failure to appeal to the mainstream. You said it yourself. "Major labels had given up on trying to get a hit out of punk rock before 1980 rolled around". Maybe the only reason these other bands didn't hit it big was because of timing. Maybe it's because they didn't have anything in their arsenal to compete with the likes of "Smells Like Teen Spirit" or "Jeremy". None of us really knows.

To close, I didn't think your points were 'sickening', but maybe you just need to clarify a little more, as I am now. You wrote a damn good article, man, and you seem to know your music pretty well. I don't know about the other readers, but I enjoyed finally reading an article that wasn't loaded to the gills with half-truths and word-of-mouth information. Keep the articles coming. I'll try to be more fair. So for all the words I might have put in your mouth,