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The Trouble With Modes, date: february 05, 2009
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The Trouble With Modes

author: frigginjerk date: 02/05/2009 category: music theory
rating: 9.6 / votes: 20 
POSTED: 02/05/2009 - 02:56 am
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 34 
 comments posted
Cmd. Cool :
Very good and well explained article. I feel perhaps you could have included the use of modes in chord progressions that do not start in the tonic of the key they're in; for example the chord progression D major, C major and G major is in G, but a D mixolydian would work wonderfully over it.
POSTED: 02/05/2009 - 10:12 am / quote |
frigginjerk :
^
i thought of that, but it's still just re-ordering the scale... if you're in G major, which you are for that progression, playing a D mixolydian scale is really just playing a G scale. D is the fifth of G, and the mixolydian is the fifth mode, so it's tempting to say that D mixolydian works in this case. Because you start on D, it's possible to use a D-based lick to start off the lead melody.

but when the music resolves in G, you always have to look at your scale as some kind of G. Yes, it has the notes of D mixolydian, but those are the same notes as G major, and your music is in G major. i guess i'm saying that it works because it's the same scale, and you're resolving to G, or to D in the context that it's the dominant chord of G major.

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 12:55 am / quote |
ShadesOfNight :
man this is confusing. But is very helpful nonetheless. I just started learning all this the other day with the circle of 5ths etc. I think I started a bit late seein as I have been playing without this knowledge for 8 years lol
But I guess it never did Keith Richards or Sid Vicious any harm

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 02:42 am / quote |
dayzofdesire :
okay...that's brilliant. Modes have been confusing me for a long time...and I've been looking all over the net...and getting conflicting answers...so i finally tried to struggle through it myself...and this proves to be pointing in exactly what I have found personally...so I'm going to follow this for sure! thank you very much.
POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 03:06 am / quote |
Cymbaline :
ummm not much pure modal music? Miles Davis had a series of albums based on modal progressions... check it out... Kind of Blue would be a good place to start
POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 05:04 am / quote |
swinghead :
good and very well written! compared to other articles bout modes ...its crystal clear (at least before messing with examples)
POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 09:30 am / quote |
xitlight :
this is a giant example of tl;dr. modes are boring imo, and they don't get more interesting with time.

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 09:40 am / quote |
The_String_Man :
great read, gave me tips on soloing.
so for example your playing strictly in the key of F minor, could you throw in some notes in the F major scale,say an A note ?

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 10:09 am / quote |
ShredderOmega :
Dear god... O_O
This is why I normaly don't bother with set scales, modes etc... I just play something I think sounds good and only occasionaly check to see if I'm in key when I get stuck. I still don't stick to it though.

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 10:16 am / quote |
emich :
most of the modal misconceptions that you talk about are because modes are taught the wrong way. deriving them from other major scales. you should always derive your modes from the major/minor scale of the key you are playing in. ie: know that D dorian is simply Dminor with a #6 and not referring it to an enharmonic scale. at least thats what we were told when i was studying music
POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 11:58 am / quote |
TW909 :
modes canimpact the music and spice up solos. yes they are the same notes rearranged but it gives a different sound to the piece.
Great article.

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 12:47 pm / quote |
Lefty7Stringer :
but the notes that will sound strongest to the listeners are still the ones the band is emphasizing (ie: the root, fourth and fifth chords of E major).


over a major chord the 4th is a dissonant tone, it has a slight pull to the 5 and a strong pull to the 3rd. you would want to emphasise chord tones

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 02:46 pm / quote |
gizmodious :
hahaha way to rip UG a new one, ****ing theory noobs lol
POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 03:14 pm / quote |
c21vin :
hahaha way to rip UG a new one, ****ing theory noobs lol


Totally useless comment.

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 05:41 pm / quote |
Diablo1986 :
Wow this is one of the most useful articles I've read on UG. Well done.
POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 06:49 pm / quote |
liledman_76 :
sounded a bit like you were discouraging the use of modes first but you were spot on. good article, definately one of the better "theory" articles.
POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 07:37 pm / quote |
airliner :
gizmodious wrote:

hahaha way to rip UG a new one, ****ing theory noobs lol


and who are you? just another stupid ass guitarist were not gonna need in the world. your just another one of those kids thats gonna learn a few songs, brag to everyone that their self taught, and then quit the guitar after high school. if you wanna go anywhere in music learn theory

POSTED: 02/06/2009 - 08:42 pm / quote |
drunken ninja :
wow, very insightful article. probably the most helpful i've come across here. great job, looking forward to more
POSTED: 02/07/2009 - 03:28 am / quote |
NemX162 :
Well that's nice; the use of modes never made sense to me for pretty much the reasons you said. Thanks for confirming some stuff.

Good Article.

POSTED: 02/07/2009 - 11:10 am / quote |
mergapoot :
good article cleared a few tings up
POSTED: 02/07/2009 - 05:23 pm / quote |
frigginjerk :
Cymbaline wrote:

ummm not much pure modal music? Miles Davis had a series of albums based on modal progressions... check it out... Kind of Blue would be a good place to start


i know you can use modal notes in progressions to imply modes... but what i was getting at is that some people mistakenly think that all they have to do is harmonize a modal scale into the triads the same way you would for a major scale, and everything will be all good. But i know what you're getting at. another guy in MT wrote an article about how to do stuff like that, and it should be coming soon.

POSTED: 02/07/2009 - 09:28 pm / quote |
frigginjerk :
The_String_Man wrote:

great read, gave me tips on soloing.
so for example your playing strictly in the key of F minor, could you throw in some notes in the F major scale,say an A note ?


you could do that, but it wouldn't be modal... you'd be adding a major third, which is more like borrowing from the parallel major key, rather than using a mode. Most modes don't alter the third, because it's such an important interval in determining the major-ness or minor-ness of a scale. In F minor, I would try a major sixth or major seventh if you're looking to make it a bit more modal.

POSTED: 02/07/2009 - 09:30 pm / quote |
gunther_sucks :
Thanks for this, it helped a lot.
POSTED: 02/08/2009 - 12:20 am / quote |
JBEADAM :
Hm...just starting out on theory, it took a couple of reads to get the gist of it, but once I did get it, it was good. If it wasn't for this article, I would've fallen for it too.
POSTED: 02/08/2009 - 04:12 pm / quote |
frigginjerk :
frigginjerk wrote:

In F minor, I would try a major sixth or major seventh if you're looking to make it a bit more modal.


whoops, i mean try a major sixth or a flat second. major seventh would be harmonic minor, which is a whole other story.

POSTED: 02/08/2009 - 04:14 pm / quote |
Nemesis260 :
Very good article. That proved what I thought but never said.
POSTED: 02/08/2009 - 07:13 pm / quote |
hendrixism :
This made my head feel weird
POSTED: 02/09/2009 - 01:24 am / quote |
PoopChute :
Ok uhh frigginjerk you confused me, in your article you said you dont ever play the other modes when you play in the key of E, how can that be true? How would a soloist be able to travel around the fretboard then, but if he were to land on the resolving note with the resolving chord it would work wouldnt it?
POSTED: 04/12/2009 - 01:58 pm / quote |
Emo-Slayer :
You forgot about modal vamps. Are you sure you know everything about modes?
POSTED: 06/22/2009 - 08:00 pm / quote |
SpeedCacophony :
The article is helpful in redressing certain points of misinformation on modal theory, but I disagree with the insistance on avoiding playing a derived mode over its tonic scale. Poly-modal music. and poly-modal chromaticism as pioneered by Bartok, is an incredibly interesting path to take with regards to music theory, and as his article to an extent alluded to semi-advanced theory, I think it puts the readers who can fully comprehend this at a defecit not to further elaborate on modal theory.
POSTED: 08/24/2009 - 01:01 pm / quote |
guitarrocks123 :

gizmodious :
hahaha way to rip UG a new one, ****ing theory noobs lol


wow 0_0

POSTED: 08/24/2009 - 07:02 pm / quote |
frigginjerk :
PoopChute:

what you're describing is just a regular solo... if the music is in E, you can play an E scale anywhere on the neck all you want... and always resolve to an E... This is because the music underneath will definitely be pulling towards an E resolution, and if your solo doesn't follow it to E or some strong harmony with E, then it will sound like the soloist has missed his cue. Modal scales are not fretboard positions... they are just a note substitution within a scale. You still can't play an F# phrygian scale over the key of E and expect it to sound good of course

SpeedCacophony:

what i'm emphasizing in my article is that it's a misconception to think that the standard, modern application of modal theory to western music is not to just play a scale with a root note different than the key and call it modal. Progressive music will always defy the rules, and do so on purpose, and often in brilliant form...

but the problem we see on UG is that the kids hear Steve Vai and Satch playing these crazy-melodic riffs, and in interviews, they usually just refer to it as being modal... they don't explain that they are subbing in an accidental, borrowed from a parallel modal scale to the key they're already in.

then when the kids first look up "modes" on the internet, what do you suppose the first thing they see is? it's somebody writing out the different modes of the C major scale, and they misinterpret that exercise as being the magical key to the kingdom, so to speak... you can learn these modes and then play them just as they scale pattern appears, but still over the tonic key, and it will automatically sound good. so they try it, and it does NOT sound good to them, so they come to UG and make a thread, and then a bunch of other misinformed folks will back up the misconception.

so my article wasn't really aimed at the more advanced theory geeks... though I'm glad some of them are reading it.

Emo-Slayer:

modal vamps are a cool subject, but what i've tried to do is dispell the idea that you can create regular 7-chord keys by harmonizing a modal scale into triads, and that this is something that happens all the time. Most modal vamps are only a chord-or two, or several carefully chosen altered grips of those two chords, so as to comply with the requirements for true modal music.

POSTED: 09/02/2009 - 10:33 pm / quote |
Jonthecomposer :
Wow, that was a great read. You're right, it amazes me just how little people actually know about scales and modes.

I choose to approach melody and harmony from a chord-tone standpoint. I feel that, if you take the idea that triads are made from every other scale degree and flip it so that you look at it as though scales are constructed by placing tones between each chord tone, it helps with note identification when playing (although you still have to know your scales first). Plus, that way you can get a line to "fit" all the important chord tones while still sounding modal.

For instance, if you are in C7, you can still hit the E and Bb as chordal tones, but use an F# or an Ab when negotiating melody. Of course... used tactfully.

POSTED: 10/06/2009 - 06:00 pm / quote |
TroyA_Easson :
The_String_Man wrote:

great read, gave me tips on soloing.
so for example your playing strictly in the key of F minor, could you throw in some notes in the F major scale,say an A note ?


No, not really. You could play G# major, because it's the relative minor. Depending on what the other guitarist/mbass player is playing you could also maybe get away with F Dorian. If you're the only guitarist and the bass layer is just pumping out an F note, you could play pretty much anything in F minor, even Phrygian or Harmonic Minor (not a mode - a scale in it's own right that has it's own set of modes) or Phrygian dominant or a diminished scale. Depends on the context of the song really.

POSTED: 11/10/2009 - 09:12 am / quote |
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