The Guide To Goth. Part 2: Subculture

Hello again, hopefully you will have read the article entitled The Guide To Goth Music, well people complained that there was nothing about subculture, so today we (Me and Erling) will do our best to explain the basis of the culture, what it is to be a Goth and related things, obviously, we cannot speak for everybody and there will always be differences so just keep that in mind.

We decided that it would be simplest to present a good portion of this article in the FAQ format, so if you wish ask your own questions feel free to do so.

Oh, anyone who wishes to pose "G0thFs su*ckkk" read the article first, and/or keep quiet. Lets begin.

History

The Goth style has evolved from being a 80`s phenomenon to becoming a way of life for many. Unlike Punk culture, where a lot of Goth comes from, there is a much bigger age difference: a lot of Goths are people between 14-40 years.

The Punk origin was focused on individuality and acceptance, this is something the Goth culture never have left, being Goth is not about being or not being accepted, and unlike Punk, which always was about acceptance.

FAQ

Do I have to wear just black to be a Goth?

No, if black don’t suits your skin you shouldn’t wear it. Although it is a rather popular colour, it’s usually used with red, purple and blue, or vice versa.

Do I have to smoke or take drugs to be Goth?

The answer is of course no, unlike the "New Romantics" that used a lot of drugs in the 80`s, the modern Goth style has a lot less drug abuse. Goths don’t smoke anymore than anybody else does, it is a dead comparison.

Do you have to be involved involved in sadomasochistic sex to be a Goth?

One could ask himself exactly where people get it from that Goths are into sadomasochistic sex by default. Obviously there are Goths who are very much into and involved in S&M, but the majority are not. The porn industry is the one to blame for the concept of all Goths being S&M freaks, do a Google search on "Goth Sex" and see how many hits you get, yeah, thought so.

Can I listen to Rap & Trance and still be a Goth?

Indeed you can, but if you’re mainly into those genres, Chances are you don’t want to be a Goth anyway.

When you are in a subculture that’s 99% based upon a musical genre, you should really listen to at least one major Goth band, and I’m not talking about "Cradle Of Filth" here, I’m talking about The Cure, Bauhaus or Sisters Of Mercy, ect, See our last column for the musical side of things here.

Are all Goths depressed?

No, but I don’t blame people for thinking so. Many people act that way to fit in to the subculture because that’s how they think we are.

Are all Goths Satanists?

Goths are hardly ever Satanists and are usually Atheist or some way involved with the Occult. Scribbling 666 everywhere is not Satanism anyway, and is often a trait used by "Mall Goths" who know nothing about Satanism itself.

I have heard expressions like "Mall Goth", "Poser Goth" and "Wannabe Goth" what are they?

A "Mall Goth" is a wannabe, a fake, a fraud. If you buy all your baggy clothes at Hot Topic and consider these bands to be Goth you just might be a "Mall Goth".

Korn
Slipknot
Good Charlotte
Linkin Park
Mudvayne
Marylin Manson

What are some Goth jobs?

One could think that maybe DJ, Artist, or Musician are really Goth jobs but no, the truth is that most Goths have just as boring jobs as the rest of us, Office Worker, Cashier, Postman ect..

But Goths are ment to be so creative?

Most Goths are very creative but that doesn't mean we can make a living on it. Like everyone else we have ambition, no one gets to the top by definition.

Why do people become Goths, because the society won’t accept them?

That’s not the case for most of us, but yes that’s supposedly the reason for some. Since Goth is a music based subculture most of us have been introduced to Goth because of Goth bands or other dark/heavy bands.

Is Mr. Manson a Goth?

It depends; his make up does not make him a Goth, if he is a Goth offstage and in his own time it’s entirely up to him.

Goths looks like freaks, are they doing this to get attention?

Now we are back on the "Mall Goth" character again, many "Mall Goths" dress the way they do to get attention but if you are a real Goth, you dress the way you do because you enjoy it yourself, if we wanted attention we could have worn big floppy shoes and rainbow wigs.

Article copyright of Alix D. and Erling.

Comments

[jedidude]

goths r clowns, but they make others laugh in a different way.

[Freepower]

1st - decent article. nice, to the point

[An80sAbortion]

Oh I have a feeling this is gonna get some negative feedback from some elitists.

[Spr1ggan]

I don't think anyone can really classify themselves as a "goth"... and this article is strange, is basically rules everything out, and then says that "if you like these bands, you're probably a mall goth" which is kind of bullshit... there are people who like those bands who are indeed mall goths, but there are also people who enjoy (some of) those bands that actually can get real meaning from the songs, and aren't just trying to be cool. Mudvayne happens to be an incredibly talented band, and some of their songs are truly meaningful. Of course some aren't, but who's perfect?
Good Charlotte goths? LMAO
Manson's not a goth anymore? Whoah, what cave have I been living in... have you ever seen videos of him offstage, or listened to some of his lyrics? You can't just look at a band and say that, "well, since they dress weird, they must be poseurs." Look a little deeper, buddy.

Also, I liked how you connected Atheism and the Occult... :@

And The Cure? What? Okay, now what the hell... so it's black, stringy hair that makes goth? But seriously, tell me what makes The Cure goth.

Anyway, the bottom line is, everyone has a different idea of what a goth is, and just because you posted this article doesn't make you an authority. Sorry, mate.

[benjaminr]

yeah the fact that there is nothing there....the elitists are gonna have a field day.

[Rockytoilet]

meh

[ctb]

Coool... it's good

[Valkyrie]

Nice article. Wannabe goths are soooo pathetic.

[battleofla]

Yeah they are going to have a field day, there is a fair bit missing but we couldn't go into depth on everything.

Comment on WHAT IS THERE! Thankys.

[erling]

where are the flames?

[battleofla]

:p, come on, we are ready for ya

[kill 'em pretty]

kul article

[axeslinger01]

do one on Punks!!!!

[KSM]

Ok, so if being a goth is nothing to do with any of the above, just what exactly DOES make ANYONE a goth other than saying "I'm a goth"? If someone is creative, wears what they feel like, listens to The Cure and is into the occult, are they goth by default, even if they don't describe themselves as such?

And The Cure have constantly said they are NOT goths, that was a title bestowed upon them by the media.

[battleofla]

The fact that the cure have said they are not goths has nothing to do with it, they were very influential to goth rock and so on.

You can be goth by default, but only if you want to be, you don't have to be into the occult though, just mearly a common practise.

I would give you a full answer but my net is about to boot me off Lol. PM me if you must

[battleofla]

I just reislised the huge contradition in there sorry.

[aXn666]

I C.....

[Twilight]

I don't understand what it means to be a goth though. I realize the idiots walking around the mall with make up listening to Korn and Manson are poser goths, but what constitutes a real goth?

[The Oceanborn]

this article sucked, the answers to these "FAQ"s were so obvious I didn't even have to read them to be able to tell the answer
no offence but that wasn't really good work, the first article was way better

[jose kaempffer]

nice job explaining what is not a goth... and i say it in a positive way beacuse many people out there think there are goth.... but the thing is that what you do to be considered a goth or what a true goth is?

[An80sAbortion]

Hmm...So according to this, my parents are pretty much goths just because they enjoy the Cure. Not that I include myself in the group, but this is WAY to general to define a subculture. You should have added something like, "One would obviously have to be an active member in the subculture by going to the clubs are having a huge collection of the music etc." Just because someone says they're a "goth" doesn't mean they are. I could say I'm a cow and like one cow activity like eating grass, but that doesn't mean I'm a cow.

[TwistedLogic]

Very good. Thanks for posting this piece.

[Curved]

are good charlotte goth? meh

[steezer]

Your pathetic thinking you can take out who is a poser or not, who the hell are you? ex pez head reagan. your part of every other dumba** thinks they can stereo type, look yourself in mirror tell yourself who yourare. all you ***s agree with this can eat their ****s. a poser is someone who is doing something as a trend. just shutup, never do that again.

[Led Zeppelin201]

whats s & m?

[DanThompson]

I think Steezer just got branded a 'Mall Goth' by this article somehow...

The article itself is pretty good, a bit vague in places though, but still nice.

[erling]

lol,steezer...lmao

[LedZeppelin]

This is why I disagree with the whole "goth" mindset. If you can wear floppy shoes and rainbow wigs and still be a goth, hell, I could be a goth. What does it mean to BE a goth if it isn't in the clothes, the music, the S&M, the drugs, or the depression?

[lesismoreSG]

i dont care what anybody says the cure is not goth

[blackwaterridge]

state of mind
its just like being an anarchist
its all in what u do/dont belive
u dont have 2 do anything to be goth. shit u can be goth by not doing something. most of the goths i know r that way because they say it reflects how they feel. and if wearing black makes u a goth my hats off to Jhonny Cash, the man in black. people try way to hard to fit into a group. they also try too hard to say what people do or dont fit into a group. *** classificatins be yourself. and live the way u wanna, lifes 2 short not 2

[blackwaterridge]

*classifications*

[Joe Blow]

this is a fuclking stupid article, like honestly what makes you one to thin kyou can classify people as goth just cause they listen to korn and what not. music is music, if you like those bands you're not a "poser" you just like those bands. music has become a fight now a days to see whos real by liking bands that no ones ever heard of, and liking them just cause they're underground music. mainstream is good too, but honestly *** off. and goth originated not in the 80's bucko but in the mid evil days

[MaliciousIntent]

I enjoyed the other article better, but again, this is good work.

I think people are getting worked up about the band thing... maybe misinterpreted - he said if you like these bands and think that they're "Goth" you might "Mall Goth", etc. Note the words "might" and "if you think they're Goth"

I agree with blackwaterridge. A state of mind... that fits so perfectly.

[nirvana138]

terrible terrible article

[Atreideslegend]

to be honest i always though goths were people directly influenced in their sense of artistry and dress by the gothic artwork and architecture of the late medievil periods that was designed to represent the darker side of christianity....but im probably just being silly, they didnt even have korn in those days so i must be wrong :P

[Kroach]

hum, what is the point of being goth:S?

[Shaundom88]

That was VERY accurate. manson is not goth. He's a glamor artist. He acts wierd to get attention.

[Shaundom88]

and good Charlotte are most defenantly NOT goth. think more along the lines of the cruxshadows.

[fractured]

I don't get it, you just said what ISNT goth mostly, you didnt get into what IS goth at all.

The definitions of 'gothic' are all over the place on the internet, none of them fit even remotely close, maddox has already told everyone that. Just go on with the classification and stuff, it'll get you REAL far.

[areguzanda]

huh they dosile as a muther .. good artiicle

[brokenbenjamin0]

I AM SICK OF %$^#^&@ stereotypes....people are like...i am a goth, i am a prep, i am a punk....people are people...there is no escaping the truth...our society is based on sterotypes and i am getting damn tired of me....if you want to e-mail me with feedback because...you disagree or you agree....i want to know what you other people think....

RIP "DIMEBAG" Darrell Abbott _\m/

[Gr1m R34p3r]

Awesome Article man

[klownthekiller]

"G0thFs su*ckkk"

indeed[img]http://i_hate_goths.tripod.com//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/i_hate_gothics.jpg[/img]

[teo_huat]

goth is just a fashion though .....

.. the truth is this article is lame sttupid ..

.... ....

[SMFar2112]

just wondering, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH GUITAR??!!?? after all we ARE on ultimate-guitar.com

[DaddyTwoFoot]

I'm pretty sure I read this before... I think it's plagiarised. I could be wrong, but I'm 90% sure I've read this before.

[DaddyTwoFoot]

OK, it's not plagiarised, it's just very similar in parts to the thing at goth.net.

[Jpinales2004]

Goths are hardly ever Satanists and are usually Atheist or some way involved with the Occult. Scribbling 666 everywhere is not Satanism anyway, and is often a trait used by "Mall Goths" who know nothing about Satanism itself.

Although I agree with many of the facts that you say (like you don't have to be a satanist if you r a goth), i do have to inform you that 666 is indeed a satanic number in the sense that is against God.

If you read or at least skim through the Bible you would know that 666 is a number that represents rebellion against God, the Christian God. Since God created many things in the bible in the number 7, 6 represents imperfection and its dubbed as a "man's number" since its considered imperfect.

I dont exactly know why is repeated 3 times.

Just a thought...

[applax]

Your only really got if you are a vampire gosh dont doesnt anybody watch blade lol

[ginger_snapd_ha]

Im so gothic dude it's not even funny
* cut to the black curtains now pleas.. thank you*
anyways, has anybody heard about the new sale going on at hottopic yet?

[applax]

actually back in the day people used to use numbers to represent their names. For example if someone was writting on a wall they would put 357

[ginger_snapd_ha]

if you watch any movies from the crow series you might be a goth.
If you believe Edward scissorhands is the best movie ever made, you might be a goth.
If you Think that THE NIGHTMARE BEFORE CHRISTMAS is more than a MOvie franchise, you might be a goth.

[applax]

so 666 was how they wrote the name of a really mean ruler . He was so mean that they compared him to the devil

[An80sAbortion]

applax:
so 666 was how they wrote the name of a really mean ruler . He was so mean that they compared him to the devil

You mean NERO!?

[An80sAbortion]

And yeah. This article shouldn't have been made. This is a site about MUSIC, and more specifically GUITARS! Not fashion statements. Whoever said that its dumb to lable people is pretty damn right. Labeling music is ok, and therefore, this should have been more about the music. Do you really think, somebody's sense of style, will be the very definition of their personality or music tastes? And even if labels WERE some logical study/science/field doesn't it seem idiotic to say that a person can be "gothic" when you are giving no definition of the label and making it overly general and open? There is no sense to labels, and even if there was, you took away even that. Should have just stuck with the music.

[airwalkskater36]

what? ur tElling me im not goth cuz i listen to korn and linkin park?? so what if my clothes are from hot topic. NU METAL RULES!!!..

[killsmileyfaces]

the guy disses slipknot, intersting yet in his last article calls evanessence goth. (rolls eyes) Of course the author was obviously expecting this. Look who ever said slipknot was goth? Im not saying they are, but dont diss great music.

[N_I_N-621]

wow this article is ..... dumb beyond belief

someone shove a ball gag in his mouth and tie him up in a corset and chains please.

[pistols]

You answer a lot of stupid questions. You (seemingly) poked some fun at punk, and you didn't mention emperor opeth or dimmu borgir and discredited cradle. Shame.

[Emenius Sleepus]

Atreideslegend:
to be honest i always though goths were people directly influenced in their sense of artistry and dress by the gothic artwork and architecture of the late medieval periods that was designed to represent the darker side of christianity....but im probably just being silly, they didnt even have korn in those days so i must be wrong :P

well put. this guy's statement said more than the whole article did - not that the article didn't have it's charm and good points. But the first one was much better. While The Cure is not goth - or so they state - they are listened to a lot in the scene.

[battleofla]

the guy disses slipknot, intersting yet in his last article calls evanessence goth. (rolls eyes) Of course the author was obviously expecting this. Look who ever said slipknot was goth? Im not saying they are, but dont diss great music.

Evanescense's music is Goth Rock, slipknot is nu-metal, in no way were slipknot ''dissed''.

[erling]

^evanescence is Nu-goth

[metal_moshpit]

id like to know who you guys are writing for, because im one who is genuinely interested and would like to know more about gothism, but i already know all this.
this seems like you are writing for the minority who believe this and are obviously anti-goth if they think this.

[Blade555]

YOU PUT EVANESCENCE AND THE CURE AS GOTH ROCK...WTF ARE YOU THINKING!!! and btw both your articles suck. they didnt event get into what beign a goth is...and Marlyn Manson is a goth you idiot! Slipknot was dissed by calling them mall goth music thats bs...

[shut_up_you_***]

I love the anti-punk propaganda, and the self proclamation of being "non-comformists" and "we're not doing it for acceptance". That is rubbish. It is in human nature to look for belonging, in order to feel comfortable with their identity.

Just admit it. Goths are non-conforming conformists. If they didn't conform, how on earth could you describe a Goth if they were so generic! lol

Apart from that, interesting article.

[guckingfuy]

dude you have no idea what you are talking about, why don't you research what you are writing about first and then post it, Dip S*it

[twocenttip]

gothicism is more a fashion statement than anything. decent article. use spell check next time.

[Atreideslegend]

ok here's a tip for you, type in 'gothic' in to google image search and what do u find? pictures of vampires and black stuff and all that "goth" related bollox. NOw type in 'original gothic', and u find pictures of cathedrals, gargolyes and christian material...strange no???

[Lestat_almighty]

Please try and link these articles, even in some small way, to guitars please. Why can't all the people who are not chavas, townies or whatever else you call them just band together under one united label to kill all the rappers etc. who barely deserve to live. If you think goths are Satanic and 666 is the height of Satan's power, doesn't that make Iron Maiden goth? I personally am trying to be as vampiric as I can be while holding down a job, and constantly get labelled 'goth'
I'm just annoyed at the world right now

[erling]

" here's a tip for you, type in 'gothic' in to google image search and what do u find? pictures of vampires and black stuff and all that "goth" related bollox. NOw type in 'original gothic', and u find pictures of cathedrals, gargolyes and christian material...strange no???"

and your POINT is?

[gair182]

Very poor article. You didn't define what it really means to be a Goth. You basically said that anyone and everyone can be or is identical to a Goth.

[ViolinGuitarist]

This is a good article, I really dont like the attention-wanting poser goths...

[BlackMetal6676]

omg i really hate mall goths...plus i really hate the cure and korn and all them and shit...i also wear black and listen to satanic metal and do know a lot about satanism and get called a goth but i wouldnt call myself 1...i woud think im a metalhead...good article i guess

[Iboseth]

Win a 1st place in something for getting attetion u goth suxx"·$%"·&%

[AnnaPlaysGuitar]

Unfortunately, goths are human too. They dress and act the way they do to get the amount of social attention they desire, and get laid. It's why we all dress and act the way we do. Food, shelter, reproduction. All comes down to that, even if it's by wearing black and listening to... The... oh-so-goth... Cure?

[Brink Hyren]

I thought that goths were a tribe of Germanic barbarians.

[jamers_]

Goth is a beautiful art.

[emoh]

Goth are crazy weirdo's with an indentity-crisis...but they are nice to talk to!!!

[erling]

^yea,we are nice....

[eyehateevery1]

i think this artical misses the point completly! when i read it i felt like i was reading a "how to" guide to being cool in the goth sence. the goth "life style" if there is sutch a thing, isnt about looking the part or fiting in. its about expressing your self and your feelings. If anything, u could label goths as bieng interested in the darker side of the spectrum. Why must we always try to catagorize everyone? Why is it cool to fit in? where has the merit in individuatlity gone?

[jamstation]

ok.. so now i know everything that is NOT goth...
so WHAT IS GOTH??

[bluebandit]

Aren't goths trying to be accepted and conforming anyway when they dress the same? It's like hey, check out my "goth" uniform. I'm down with something you people know nothing about.

[yertletheturtle]

Count Chocula is so goth.

[proguit933]

why the *** do we have to be anything, why cant we jus be what we want without being whatever, and whos to say what a goth, so what if they lisetn to korn and buy their clothes from hot topic, its just a store and korn is only a band, musical opinion has become some sort of way to bash other people, why cant u just call them something else instead of calling them poser goth or mall goths, maybe they arent trying to goth, theyre just trying to be themselves which is what all of these musical genres are about, expressing yourself. goth or punk or emo or whatever little genre you want to know about is whatever you want it to be. and by the way count chocula is sooo.. emo.

[SamiGirl]

An80sAbortion:
Hmm...So according to this, my parents are pretty much goths just because they enjoy the Cure. ....I could say I'm a cow and like one cow activity like eating grass, but that doesn't mean I'm a cow.

SMFar2112:
just wondering, WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH GUITAR??!!?? after all we ARE on ultimate-guitar.com

Curved:
are good charlotte goth? meh

Those are all so relevant.

I listen to The Cure. I wear black (and red, and purple, and blue, and pink, and white, and yellow). I do drugs. I like S & M. I'm Atheist. I am creative. Society accepts me, begrudingly. I act like I do to get attention.

But I'm not Goth. I wear sparkly wigs and stolen bowling shoes, but that doesn't make me a raver. I wear plaid and Doc Martins. I listen to The Clash and The Sex Pistols. I'm not a punk. I wear tie dye and peace signs, and listen to The Grateful Dead and Joan Baez. I'm not a hippie. I wear jeans and shirts from the mall. I'm not a preppy. I use a computer, get good grades, and read in spare time. I'm not a nerd. I make jokes in class and get into trouble at school, and I'm not a failure. I go to the skate park and wear DCs. I'm not a skater.

Or am I?

I'm who I am.

People try so hard to fit into a group of people that they forget who they are. You become something you're not. And there is nothing cool about that. People label so they feel better about themselves. They can call themselves a goth or punk and feel confident, or they can look at me and call me a tree-hugging hippie and feel even better.

At the mall, you see the mall goths running around with their deviantly drawn on All Stars and snap bracelets and you belittle them to yourself and your goth friends. You've no right. It is not like you're the almighty. You need to ditch your 'Gothier Than Thou' attitude.

Oh, and you forgot that you hafta, hafta read Johnny The Homicidal Maniac and Lenore, and watch Invader Zim to be Goth.

[SamiGirl]

And I love how you wear your shirts that say "You laugh at me because I'm different, I laugh at you because you're all the same," "I have issues," or my favorite, "Don't Label Me."

Everyone that bought those shirts bought them from the same place. If you look at their pathetic live journal, you'll see the same things. "I woke up today. Got online, BlAckANGelOfDEtH6x66 told me she loved me. Then I ate some Raisin Bran and had a nice wank while listening to some obscure underground goth band. Mom told me to clean my room so I locked myself in my closet with my absinthe and razor and retired to sweet death. But dad came in and caught me. Suicide must wait another day."

I wish you would just get it over with and take a vile of insulin or something.

[eyehateevery1]

amen SamiGirl!

[The_Eddster]

What is sadomasochistic sex?

[Needled_24/7]

The_Eddster:
What is sadomasochistic sex?

maybe you should have that little talk with your parents. lol. just kidding.

good article. i like the sense of truth in it. because not all goths are depressed, theyre just normal people doing what they do. im just a normal guy doing what i do, but im not labeled because i dont fall into any categories (some people think thats wierd but its true). but good article. alot of truth.

[Gothic~Archon~!]

To the people or person who wrote this article your so biased there is not much relevance in this article

[kabukimono]

Decent article. Could have given a little more. Lots of these commenters were morons though. They didn't realize that you said "if you think these bands are goth you might be a poser" or whatever. If you THINK they are GOTH. Okay yeah. Liking the music isn't what makes one a Goth. Goth is feeling the pain of the world and understanding it. Not just your own pain. And original Goth is the Visigoths. And then the architecture and all that jazz. Yeah. Work on things besides the music and then you could have a really good article.

[An80sAbortion]

Heh. The SamiGirl person has got it down....as do others. But JtHM IS pretty kick ass.

[Kappa]

A really good article. I'm no Goth, though I listen to Tristania, but I know many of these Mall Goths, and they piss me off. This article is great to learn more about Goths and that they don't have to wear black. Part 3?

[sweet_leaf_777]

Jpinales2004, the reason 666 is used is because of a passage in the book of Revelations to do with judgment at the end of the world and if my memory serves me correctly those that have it tattooed on them are condemned as it is the number of a giant worm who is slain and? I dunno it?s weird anyway, it sounds like it was written on acid lol and btw in some translations from the Greek it is written as 616. I also find that people who society would generally see as gothic tend to say that "they want to be individual", which always amuses me because they do this by dressing and acting the same way as everybody else, and in the way that you can be a "Goth" whilst still listening to techno, you can also be this and listen to Marilyn Manson but so elitists just have to put people down because they are insecure in themselves and can raise their self esteem by being more "Goth" than someone else, as I would imagine most people trying to be "Goth" here are. (Just look at the amount of times the word "one" is used here compared to most replies to articles lol). The main reason the Cure are associated with the scene is because they are popular with people who claim to be ?Goths? and because the music often had a drone in it, which was really an oblique counterpoint, but this is reminiscent of church music and it all can be seen as sounding ?gothic?. At the end of the day, it is just a media term and doesn?t really mean much anyway. Why do we need to classify people? We were all unique the last time I checked.

[beaker]

haha what the ***!!!! i actually had an art history lesson at uni the other week and i learnt about the baroq, new romantic, goth periods and the suprising thing is...the amount of goths that like to call themselves gothic yet dont even know nothing about the gothic period!!! gothic doesnt even mean to dress black, wear eyelinder and that bullshit, its more a term to describe a pointy style of religious architechture...the goth you senseless people only seem to know about is actually gothik, with a K, so get your facts right you un-cultured goth twats!!

[RHCPhysco8]

that was a great article that was easy for me to understand. nice work.

[bearded_rainbow]

I can only think of one appropriate response for this article: who cares?


beaker: goth could be an abbreviation for gothic or gothik. How many times have you seen one of these people write the word out? How do you know that they aren't using it as an abbreviation for gothik? You don't, and the fact is, it doesn't matter, so shut up. No one cares about your art history lesson, and the fact that you had one doesn't suddenly make you cultured.

[Demon_acecat]

Wow. Whoever wrote this article is such a poser.

You mentioned that how you dress and what you believe doesn't make you goth, but listening to certain bands automatically makes you a "mall goth"?

The only interesting part about this article is that it shows how little some people know about being goth, and how shallow the writer obviously is.

P.S.- KoRn Rocks. Fuck off, you.

[Rasonastos]

Personally, I agree with more than half of the article, that's just me, but...listening to certain bands and wearing certain clothes doesn't necessarily constitute one as a 'mall goth' (except for Good Charlotte, seriously wtf lol j/k ^_^). I know the author didn't say that this is always the case though either. I do like the column and that is why I'd like to contribute my own thoughts. Basically i think the culture will always continue to evolve the same way the music does, and will probably be looked upon with disdain with the preceeding generations. The bands you mention I don't consider goth either, but that's not saying they dont have goth members and can't have visible influneces which some people enjoy and pick up on that are legitimate goths. Then again, i hope that those bands weren't mentioned only because they are popular and well known..aka..mainstream, which by definition has no descriptive meaning of the music itself, but one rather of distribution of the music. It doesn't mean they are sellouts or they dont write their own work or what have you. Being goth to me is more along the lines of a learning experience in humanity and the way way people of similar tastes can have differences and learn to coexist with out elitism while learning and pondering new ideas. In a non-establishment subculture, hot topic has given the scene a bad name, but they aren't making anything different in clothing styles that german companies weren't doing before hottopic was even opened. The difference is that if you DO like bondage pants, most people would rather spend $55.00 that 55 GBP our EUR. We can't all afford to get the nice side stitched/pvc/whatever Black Rose clothes, so, I guess my point is that if one is going to list red flags about who may be legitimate or who is a poser, rely less on their style of music and clothing and more on what comes out of their mouth.

[Baselerd]

Goths arent exactly this open minded, bad article. How can there be such thing as a non-poser goth? If you were really open minded and didnt give a shit, you wouldnt fall into a little close nit cliche of people who want attention.

[Baselerd]

oh yeah, and if goth isnt about acceptance, whats to stop me from calling myself a goth (other than my dignity)? Goth culture is based on hypocrisy, and if you dont consider yourself a hypocrite, you arent a goth. Its not based on music, but to be a goth u have to listen to their goth bands; they're all conformists pitted against conformists.

[Rasonastos]

"If you were really open minded and didnt give a shit, you wouldnt fall into a little close nit cliche of people who want attention."

Despite the already pessimistic tone of your posting, i dont suspect any true middle ground can be reached, but it wasn't the 'goths' or 'freaks' or whatever terms you personally find to your liking that gave themselves such a name in the first place. No more than minorities gave themselves their own racial slurs, which originally, in the 'goth' term, wasn't much different in it's conception.

[RockNRollGuy420]

666 is the mark of the beast

[RockNRollGuy420]

there are too many mallgoths where i live HAHA but theyre all in Junior high NOT high school(theres still some) but youre right they dont know what it means to NOT be a poser.

[ScreamingGibson]

Well it was a good article. I really dont consider myself a mall goth but i listen to Korn , slipknot , MM , Kittie and so forth. I dress in black cuz it fits my personality of being dark and rejected. Most of my friends are satanist atheist as myself. When noone can accept you for who you are you tend to get depressed. Most goths are talented in areas of poetry such as myself. Poetry is a way that can speak of your feelings and the way life is seen through somones eyes. But this is an overly good article jsut wanted to shed my word on it. Laterz

[Jpinales2004]

sweet_leaf_777:
Jpinales2004, the reason 666 is used is because of a passage in the book of Revelations to do with judgment at the end of the world and if my memory serves me correctly those that have it tattooed on them are condemned as it is the number of a giant worm who is slain and? I dunno it?s weird anyway, it sounds like it was written on acid lol and btw in some translations from the Greek it is written as 616. I also find that people who society would generally see as gothic tend to say that "they want to be individual", which always amuses me because they do this by dressing and acting the same way as everybody else, and in the way that you can be a "Goth" whilst still listening to techno, you can also be this and listen to Marilyn Manson but so elitists just have to put people down because they are insecure in themselves and can raise their self esteem by being more "Goth" than someone else, as I would imagine most people trying to be "Goth" here are. (Just look at the amount of times the word "one" is used here compared to most replies to articles lol). The main reason the Cure are associated with the scene is because they are popular with people who claim to be ?Goths? and because the music often had a drone in it, which was really an oblique counterpoint, but this is reminiscent of church music and it all can be seen as sounding ?gothic?. At the end of the day, it is just a media term and doesn?t really mean much anyway. Why do we need to classify people? We were all unique the last time I checked.

I agree.

By the way, thanks for the info. I appreciate it.

[NirvanaChild]

I Agree With Sweet Leaf, But I Have A Question. Nine Inch Nails Is One Of My Favorite Bands Ever And I Wanted To Know If You Guys Considered Them To Be "Goth". Trent Reznor, Who Has Rarely Been Seen Wearing Anything But Plain Black, Basically Made Marilyn Manson And Had A Large Influence On "Goth" Rock In The Early 90s, Both Commercial And Alternative. If There Are NIN Fans Out There, Let me Know What You Think.

[sinbad-d-sailor]

hey, i just wanted to say that in the uk we get bloody tonnes of goth wannabes, im not a goth myself, im more of a bunghole... but here we get guys who will follow anything, especially if their parents hate it.. i thought the article was pretty cool.

Joe Turner says: "shake baby shake, roll baby roll"

[ccdirtyho69]

i wanna be a goth now

[dumazz]

hey...ccdirtyho69....u r so stupid im gonna kick ur ass

[smartazz]

hey dumazz.....ccdirtyho69....i am gonna kick both ur assess

[dumazz]

sorry about what we posted before

i know some gothic people and they all are what u call..mall goths?...i really wanna get to know them but they keep to themselves
tell me how to talk to them...i am kinda a prep

[erling]

why do you wanna know mallgoths ? ..just talk to them,they will probably call you something bad. because they are mallgoths.

[spuddy104]

man stop saying Goth

[The Precious]

I just wish everyone could dress the way they like listen to what pleases them and enjoy what they enjoy, and not try to classify themselves. I love music. All types in fact. Mostly rooted in rock. But who needs genres...?

[r_lightning]

there is a lot of questions here you haven't answered.. and the cure aren't goth btw. they said so

decent article. nice, to the point

though

[veriette]

everyone is so strongly opinionated on this...fun =)i have to say... i've neevr heard the term 'Mall goth'.. oh well. I know a few 'goth's' and they aint depressed and sad all the time...they are the funniest people i know! but yeah it was a pretty pointless article lol =/

[Antichrist_Teen]

Does shopping at Hot Topic and listening to Manson make you a poser? If so I suppose I'm a poser, though I don't consider myself gothic. I just do what I want. Screw labels. The only music I really listen to is Manson, My Chemical Romance and The Used(and some older Green Day). I buy my clothes at Hot Topic because they happen to sell clothes that, I guess, fit my style. T-shirts with witty remarks are always fun. Hell, if they sold those clothes at Claires I'd buy them. Once again, screw labels.

[Powertrip]

it's sad today how people find it "cool" to dress up like Marilyn or Valo...everyoe says "oh its not cause I think it's cool, it's because the clothes fit etc"...thats obviously total bullshit...people want to be noticed...they WANT to be shun from society.....good job



as for the gothic rock/metal/trance whatever you'd like to call it...i agree with most of the list from the first part...but you have also left out a large group such as Dress'd in black, blue kremlin, mega vega, wasted doom, girls under glass, moloko, holy orange, T.H.E., new trial..... etc...

[Muddy_Banks]

THIS WHOLE BULL SHIT NOWDAYS ABOUT STEREOTYPES REMINDS ME OF REDNECK JOCKS ON BLUE COLLAR TV

STOP trying to be a sopeksman if you listen to this type of music or that, if you do this you're that.

and YOU clearly stated THAT YOU ARE A GOTH now how goth is that???..

[GrandeGordo?]

This is pretty gay...

"Oh I hate labels and I *** the system!"

Yet you label yourself as a goth...

Being goth is nothing more than being a big ***ing pussy and wearing faggoty trenchcoats with black fingernail polish.

[birdman]

I agree 100% grandegordo . . . its fine if you are goth but your just a pussy asshole who thinks they are all self rightous because they dont by in to "the man" or mainstream culture. Well guess what . . they are just losers WHO SUCK AT LIFE so they band together with all the other losers and give themselves a label

[aperfectmistake]

yertletheturtle:
Count Chocula is so goth.

lmao...i love this quote

[Craig01]

so what exactly are goths lol

[ohdarn323]

the reason this article sucks bullocks is because it's about trying to label an image. who the hell cares about the title "goth", or if somebody "is" or "isn't".

[Powertrip]

exactly....music is music....

[animefreak15]

no sense at all...

[TheKarr12]

I challenge any gothic out there to send me the universal definition of a gothic. I've been to some of the biggest gothic web sites on the internet and none of them have a consistent, universal or even coherent definition of what a "gothic" is. As far as I'm concerned, it's just a label. End of story. Just another group of people starving for attention. There's nothing unique, interesting, mysterious or inherently intellectual about these pseudo-intellectuals. What's the point? Why don't these people get their own opinions and stop trying to fit into the rules of a group they didn't invent. Uncreative, un-innovative and most of all uninteresting. The whole "tortured artist" facade is tired. I'd like to use a quote from one of the authors of gothics.org, on the definition of gothics:

"But what does gothic mean in regards to the group of people? Here's where it gets confusing. There are things that many Gothics like that are not gothic (Industrial or Classical music). There are things that are gothic that many Gothics dislike (vampires, interest in death). There are things that some people think are gothic that are not gothic (bands like Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails), and there are things that do not call themselves gothic even if they are considered gothic by most people (bands like Sisters of Mercy and Dead Can Dance). However, there's no Grand Gothic Judge to decree what is truly Goth and what is not, although there are plenty of people who claim to be it. It's an ambiguous label with many people using it that don't understand what it means. The people who do understand it often have many different definitions."

Highlighted in red, the author states that it's just a label. The use of the word "ambiguous" in front of "label" serves as a buffer that doesn't change the fact that it is indeed just a label. As stated, there is no "gothic judge to decree what is truly Goth and what is not," implying that there is no universal definition. How trivial and boring.

I received an email from a gothic a long time ago that stated:

I bet you don't even know any Goths because if you did you would know that most of us are the most intelligent, unique, intresting and creative poeople you will ever met.

Many goths seem to adhere to this mentality. That they are some how MORE unique and intelligent than the rest of us. Not only is this insulting, but blatantly false; testimony to this fact being all the poorly written email I receive from "goths." Ironically, since most goths (and by "goths," I refer to their "culture" or "subculture" as they've defined it) seem to think that they are somehow more intelligent, interesting and/or creative than the rest of us, this alludes to another character trait entirely, or namely, arrogance. Boring, arrogant, uninteresting, un-innovative gothics. I believe this issue has been exhausted.

[An80sAbortion]

TheKarr12....that was beautiful.

[Antichrist_Teen]

I agree with TheKarr12 on most points, and I don't really feel like arguing with the points I don't agree with.

[erling]

The karr12

Goth is based on a genre of music

Goth is a fashion,to think that wearing just black clothes is goth is wrong

Goth is a type of humor ,often more morbid then other types

Goth is a type of art

Goth is a way of life ...for some people.

Goth is litterature

Goth is a chance to be different ...for some people

Goth is love

Goth is a protest against the society ...for some


so how do I live like a goth?

the goth way of life all those things combined,art,litterature,music,fashion,writing gothic poems,going to clubs,taking midnight walks,painting gothic objects,reading gothic books,waching gothic films...everything that is combined with dark and romantic things,because goth is romanticizing darkness,death,vampires....just like painters did in the 1800`s with other objects.

No person in the world have all the correct answers of what goth is,and thats what I like about it...goth is alot of things so many people can be goth.

dont let anyone fool you into to beliving that Goths are more intelligent or intellectual then "normal" people,but my experience of the subculture is that most goths are deeper then most people,but I might be wrong..

So to FIT INTO the goth scene ,all you have to do is to wear black clothes,like some dark films and listen to some dark music,but thats not necessary what goth is .

since goth is based on 80`s goth/death rock/ punk bands ,I think that a "true " goth should at least have knowledge of some of the really important bands..like Bauhaus or the sisters of mercy,but hey thats just me.

what makes goth different from other labels is that goth means something good for us,not like many other labes...unless you get called a goth and hate everything to do with the goth subculture.


Most people that dont like goths is people who have probably never met a real goth,we are humans too.

We cry,we bleed,we laugh,we go to the toilet,we get sick,we love,we hate,we fall in love,we feel hurt sometimes...we think the same things that you do,unless its about art,music,clothes and humor etc,but then again...I love shows like seinfeldt,simpsons,everybody loves raymond.....

I dont feel different within myself since I started to see myself as a goth,I have just taken an interest in other things then i used to.



sorry about my poor english

[suicideangel_2]

I totaly agree with erling everyone is the ***ing same and also this article was SHIT you don't know the first thing about goths. you are probebly a big poser

[erling]

whats wrong with the article?

[shzero]

Nothing wrong with real goth's. 'Mall goth's' are those who think they're intelligent by becoming a goth, that makes them look dumb, not intelligent.

[FulLMeTaLjAcKeT]

theres no such thing a "real goth" i guess the poor dumbass who wrote this made it for people who dont who goths are "i think" i dont know. i just know that the article sucks. i like erlings comment

[haunted_soul]

'goths' what you want it to be. stop ***ing trying to put it in a box.

[endymion]

TheKarr12 if you're gonna copy and paste someone elses writing, maybe you should give them credit (ie. maddox)
ps. Goths are ***in crap, they always look so depressed, if they are really depressed, they should just kill themselves, so I don't have to listen to them cry all time.

[Jpinales2004]

thekarr 12 why didn't you made your statement into another article?

[Pr0phecy_X]

Discussing what it takes to be goth is pathetic, you people make me sick, especially the ones taking this as tips and pointers to increase their life styles. if you agree with how much thought this guy has put into the article, its sad, very sad. I dress like a ***ing homie, I am nocturnal, I prefer the dark over light. but because I dont dress in pure black and wear jewlery and shit, id never be considered "gothic" *** off and just let people live the way they live and stop trying to be part of a scene by labelling everything ***ing loosers.

[blank]

SamiGirl:
Mom told me to clean my room so I locked myself in my closet with my absinthe and razor and retired to sweet death. But dad came in and caught me. Suicide must wait another day

^^^that would be ***ing hilarious if someone spazzed out that bad because they didn't want to clean their room. just wanted to point that out.

oh, and guys that wear make-up and eyeliner and shit are a bunch of fags...like, are you trying to be a girl??? and also, stop trying to get into therapy by cutting yourself or pretending your insane cause it's not cool.

It's also cause of this stupid gothic culture my sister killed herself cause her 'gothic' friends pressured her too cause they said they were gonna and now I got no sister to hang out with when my friends or girlfriend are out of town...mother ***ers.

[sv1684]

everybody is a goth!!!! AHHH..!!!!

[Gothic~Archon~!]

blank:
SamiGirl:
Mom told me to clean my room so I locked myself in my closet with my absinthe and razor and retired to sweet death. But dad came in and caught me. Suicide must wait another day


^^^that would be ***ing hilarious if someone spazzed out that bad because they didn't want to clean their room. just wanted to point that out.

oh, and guys that wear make-up and eyeliner and shit are a bunch of fags...like, are you trying to be a girl??? and also, stop trying to get into therapy by cutting yourself or pretending your insane cause it's not cool.

It's also cause of this stupid gothic culture my sister killed herself cause her 'gothic' friends pressured her too cause they said they were gonna and now I got no sister to hang out with when my friends or girlfriend are out of town...mother ***ers.

loser you have to hang out with your sister? whats the matter no friends? what i thought

[INDUSTRIALMETAL]

How can you think a Subculture is "Gay? You obviously can't use words in the correct context therefore every thing you say is pointless and will be a regarded as such.

[diego224]

wut do goths want out of what they do?

[guitare_kid13]

so is the whole world a goth? lol.

[scum_stache]

sunn o))) is a crappy band that "goths" listen to...and being gothic is just a way for ugly people to be interesting, so cut it out...but do what you want, and be yourself.

[INDUSTRIALMETAL]

Sunn O))) are actually a diverse and creative band, that are actaully doing something different, but hey it's all opinions.....

[slayerman]

loser you have to hang out with your sister? whats the matter no friends? what i thought

he said when his friends are out of town

[guitare_kid13]

unlike alot of you im not a loser ,i do like labels, dressing nice, not doing drugs.i do laugh and make jokes at people who are stoners,freaks,goths,dumb,or anything else that i consider god's mistake

[guitare_kid13]

hey hey hey

[guitare_kid13]

hopefully my comments make people sad, because when I hear the news that a kid die of drugs I'll be laughing my ass of

[Darkbodom]

well written article specially the part of mall goths. Here in the Dominican Republic there's a certain stench of mall goths. Even though im not a goth, i starting to like some of the bands.
4/5 star

[brains_in_a_jar]

Good article indeed. I agree with a lot of what you noted.
I don't like the idea that clothes justify who you are. Or the fact that people say what they are gonna be, like "I'm gonna be punk" or I'm gonna be Emo" or something of that nature. I mean, you are who you are, let it be goth, punk, emo etc. (Though I don't really believe in these social groups, I was just using them to get my point across).

[SkaterD2002]

What the hell is this article still on here. It needs to be off this site. Its nothing to anything related on here. It sucks

[deportivo]

imo, from what i've seen, gothic people are more individualistic. those who are aren't devil worshippers or anything like that, a lot of 'em just have some talent in one area (art -drawing, music) etc...and then they dont really care about the rest. and because they dont care, they wear what they do. and i suppose apathy is quite short of happiness, so black (and its complements) are the wear of choice. gothic groups are prolly just a bunch of these people who have found somethin that complements their way of thinkin, so i guess u can't really define a goth in generalities.

or i could just be stupid.

[antipop]

I didnt even read it, i hate goths

[lastdyingchance]

i think labels are stupid...

[remixedEmotions]

i sincerly think that wannabe goths are very very stupid and that true goth lack a brain with which they could think just geeks and pervs that have been outcasted by the sociaty and they want to be something thats it ..instead of trying to be better ppl they just choose to be sick demented nobodies

[mesmeric]

Wow. The flaming is making my eyes burn.... gah...

So.. Where to start.... wow.

Are all goths satanists? Heck no. I myself am a Christian, and yet am a goth. Need help understanding? www.christiangoth.com all is expleained there.

Second. All these stupid stereotypes. If you listen to this music you are etc... I listen to the bauhaus, som, Christian death and such. I also listen to classical, industrial, trance.. and *dare I say it* emo and screamo music. Am i emo now because i listen to the last two genres? haha no. I just like scream-emo music. So? I happen to like darkwave, blackmetal, and thrashmetal. I also like punk. (not sum 41 punk... *shudder* I like Social D, the ramones, Quiet Riot, and minor threat. So now am I not goth? Heck no. I listen to mainly goth, but as a musician I listen and like other music.

gtg.

[mesmeric]

eh... the second half of my post never made it... My computer froze.. I'll write it out later.

Good guide btw. I liked it.

[bmartinak]

Since when was Punk about acceptance? I fear you may have missed the boat on that one.

[Archaon]

G0thFs su*ckkk !!

Kidding. Not too bad of an article, although when you say Gothik is about acceptance of people and whatever they listen to and then say that if they listen to "this band" they are not Goth, it doesn't make much sense.

[nuguitarist666]

its an ok article. I wear black baggy clothes and listen to gothic rock and nu-metal, but im a christian and people call me gothic, well im not i just like black clothes and listening to that genre of music, and if what u said is true then shouldnt i be gothic?

[darkflame8606]

all you guys are so ***ing stupid, but i do agree with some of you. who gives a *** about labeling people just be yourself i wear black and listen to cradle of filth but dont consider myself anything. the article was stupid.

[Cryth]

GOTHIC IS NOT A MUSIC BASED SUBCULTURE!!! the gothic music style originated after the gothic subculture was formed, and it doesn't matter what kind of music you listen to, although most goths listen to gothic music,

[Gothic_ed]

you are a fool. A few good points but 1 why should where you buy you clothes dictate how gothic you are and 2 you can't just becom a goth or want to be goth. You either are or you're not. Im so tired of you skin-goths. Go learn something about it from a real goth not media stereotypes or some website that thinks its giving the truth about goths. 1 star just to lower you're rating

[rocknroll420]

You are ****ing dumb when u say gothic it refers to the medevil age so u need to find a different name for your subculture plus it sux your all freaks and al wannabes and emo pussies

[rocknroll420]

wow if u have to read and article on if ur goth or not ur not plus why wuld u wanna be goth its dumbe emo shit and screamin whiny asss singers i wear black and im not goth far from it i also dont cut myself with a dull razor blade liek you faggoting goths do the music sucks and the subsubculture sux even more it wuld really be cool if al you dumass goths just ahd one amsss uicide hell knows ud liek it

[*miss world*]

i applaud you greatly
i was labelled a goth because i lik slipknot and marilyn manson and mudvayne and korn and it descusted
they thought i cut myself and wore black all the time
how sad is their ignorance
the stereotype is just ludacrous
i know im not a goth

[Frank-a-way]

Without any Mall goths/Terror cookies Who would we belittle?

[Frank-a-way]

Hey miss world?
How about spell check?

[YAYAN16]

Very nice. From reading this and the other artical, I have figured out some "mall goths" in my school. Haha I laugh becuase I used to be scared of them, but now I'm not.

[dimebag7]

what about rob zombie?> i think hes a satanic lol maybe

[Bullett]

*sigh* I think almost everyone here misses the point... the original goths lived between the 1700 and mid-later 1800's, their lifestyle was the same as most people of that age... the only reason they were called goth is because of their mind-set... they were deeply into supersition (ghosts, demons, vampires... etc)not only that but some were real into religion... to be a goth is to be into the world nobody cares to see... the hopelessness of it all, the fact that we arn't the only one's here, or that we don't serve some greater purpose that we are as dumb and usless as the animals we claim to be superior to... nobody really cares how you look or what you listen to. Goths contributed to society in various ways (literature, art, even churches)so unless you think beyond what you see or hear don't worry about it... I've seen so many posers it's sickining