Circle of fifths


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dmal
07-15-2002, 09:19 PM
would someone please explain to me what the circle of fifths is, its significance, and how to apply it in writing of leads and rythms.

:bonk: :bonk: :bonk:

FroDaddy
07-15-2002, 09:46 PM
In the circle of fifths, the ascending circle of fifths moves clockwise while the descending circle of fifths moves counter.
If you start at any point on the cirlce and go through 12 consecutive fifths, you'll end up at the note you started from and will use all 12 chromatic pitches in the process.
Ex. of a fifth...C to G just five consecutive notes.

The order that sharps and flats occur in the key signature and the names of the major and minor keys, in order of increasing number of sharps or flats used in the key signature, are based on the cirlce of fifths.
That's about all I know about it.

casualty01
07-16-2002, 03:21 AM
yo dmal ... I just got in from a long session .... i'll post all ya need too know about it (function, relevance, little patterns that re-occur etc..) first thing when i wake up .

peace. :o <--- thats me yawning ...

SY57EM
07-16-2002, 04:45 AM
Originally posted by casualty01
:o <--- thats me yawning ... thats you *****ing... heh just kidding :D

circle of fifths. oh boy. I remember learning some stuff bout it while I was playing piano, not pretty stuff. I still don't really understand it... my teacher gave me a chart and said 'memorize'... hopefully casualty will give me sometime more, when he's done *****ing that is :D :D :D

:cheers:

dmal
07-17-2002, 07:35 PM
excellent, looking forward to hearing from you, casualty

SY57EM
07-18-2002, 04:17 AM
okay everyone, casualty got a little held up with practicing and recording and stuff. so I reminded him about this thread and that we were waiting, so he just gave me all the info on the spot and told me to post it, so here goes:

E-----------5----------
F--------4-----4-----
R-----3------------3--
W----2------------2--
U-------1-------1------
5-----------0----------

the circle of fifths. okay, basically:
you take the miloxfrigeen chords with the circle of fifths, which is really the circle of tenths, then you integrate it with sweep economy legato picking while also hybrid picking the bottom 3 strings for approximately 3 minutes. for the 15th shape of the major scale with the circle of fifths, you get a pen and paper out, then copy that diagram above and circle the notes which fret can be multiplied to equal a prime number.sorry guys, I just needed to do that.

actually, it just slipped casualty's mind. he won't be able to post today (july 18) either, heading out to DC to try and sell to record execs. he'll just post as soon as he gets back from DC, sunday (july 21). hope you guys didn't take me seriously... :D

:cheers:

dmal
07-20-2002, 10:59 AM
damn,
y'all fergot about me:(

casualty01
07-22-2002, 02:47 AM
na dude , i havent forgot ... just been busy .

i'll get on it ASAP .

promise

1-2 days max ... swear :cheers:

Pyr0
07-22-2002, 05:53 AM
all I know about it, is its a good way to get chord progressions. First you pick a key for example C (the easiest, no key signature)

I might be wrong, but i think if you go forward in the circle
C-G-D then the chord progression sounds like it's continuing. If you go backwards it sounds complete e.g. C- G- C sounds complete. Close steps in the circle sound more natural, but it's ok to jump 2 or 3 steps. Am i right? this is just from memory.
Here's the circle:


C - G - D - A - E- B - F#- C# - G# - D# - A# - F - C

I think i did that right. OK so it's a line,not a circle, but you get the idea.

Common chord patterns include I-IV-V which can be C,F,G or G, C, D etc etc. On the circle you just take a root, then the next chord is the one to the left of the root, then the one to the right of the root. So you can easily apply patterns to any key, even F# if you really wanted to ( F#, B, C#.)

The Circle's a weird and mysterious thing...and i'm sure casualty01's gonna explain it a lot better....:cheers:

casualty01
07-24-2002, 01:40 AM
ok ... here i am , first of , sorry about the tardiness, i've been recording , shopping my disc to labels , getting lawyers ... uggh .
I?m sure you know how that goes dmal

anyways ... those guys before me explained it to a point (fro daddy , pyro) but I'll attempt giving you the fullest explanation that it can be given over the internet .

please excuse the fucked up circle ... i couldn?t get it to stay like a circle any other way


.......................................C.......................................
..........................F..........................G........................
................................................................................
................Bb..........................................D................
.................................................................................
.................................................................................
...........Eb....................................................A............
.................................................................................
.................................................................................
...........Ab....................................................E............
.................................................................................
.................................................................................
.............Db.............................................B.................
.................................................................................
......................Gb...............................F#....................
................................Cb..........C#...............................
..................................................................................
..................................................................................

well there?s the circle ... diagramed out for you

now ... the notes you see represent keys (i.e. C major , G major, D major etc..) seeing as how everything in music relates back to the diatonic major scale ... this circle is invaluable

ok ... so lets break it down . the right side of the circle goes UP in 5ths (C-G-D-A etc... ) the left goes down in 5ths(C-F-Bb-Eb etc..) ...(or up in 4ths ... that side of the circle you will also see called the circle of 4ths .... )

the right side has #'s (sharps) within the scale ... the left side has flats (b's) in the scale .

now the way it is designed results in each new scale on the right side having 1 new # and each scale on the left has one new b

the exception is C major, which is the first or top scale in the circle. if you're going left or right (through 5ths or 4ths) the C major scale is the one you start on


example: right side ... (all #'s)

C major
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

G major
G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G

D major
D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#

etc....

the left side

C major
C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C

F major
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F

Bb major
Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb

etc...


now, there a certain patterns to help you remember keys and key signatures (i.e. what sharps and what flats are in what keys )
which is kinda the basis of the circle.

1. keys to the right ... go up in 5ths ... only have #'s in them . now ... each new key has 1 new # in it + the sharps from the last key ...
example ....
G major has F# in it (G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G)
D major has F# and C# (D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D)
A major has F#, C#, and G# in it (A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#)
etc..

the key to remembering **** on the spot consists of 2 things
1. the pattern of sharps. KNOW the order of sharps. don't just be able to kinda figure them out. KNOW it like you know your phone number......

the order of sharps as they appear in each new key is
F#-C#-G#-D#-A-#-E-#-B# (If you'll notice ... the sharps go up in 5ths as well :) )

and 2. that the NEW # is always the last note in each scale (i.e. in G major ... the new sharp is F# ... the last note of the scale ...in D major the NEW # is C# the last note in the scale ...etc...)

now .... if someone throws a key at you ... like "this key is in B major" ... than you can think "ok ... well the last note is A , so its gonna be A# ....now, remembering that each key has its "new" # plus all the ones from the previous keys in the circle, and if you know the pattern of #'s ... then you know this key has F#,C#,G#,D# AND A# IN IT .... so the key would be written/played B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A#-B :) )


FLATS

flats occur in the opposite direction .... rule still applies in the fact that each new scale has a new "b" in it (see above example of "b" major scales )

but !! ... the new "b" doesn?t occur in the last note position (the 7th note) ... it occurs on the 4th note within the scale.

example:

F major
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F

Bb major
Bb-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb

ETC...

now ... couple of different patterns here on the left side

1. new "b" occurs on the 4th note

2. new scale in the circle begins with the 4th note of the previous scale, hence the name "circle of 4ths"

3. the order of flats goes in the opposite direction that the order of #'s goes in , and vice versa ..


Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-Cb-Fb
F#-C#-G#-D#-A#-E#-B#

4. each new key starts on the "new" flat of the last key (same thing as tip #2 really, since the 4th note is where the new flat always appears. except starting from C. there's no flat in the key of C major, so just remember the 4th note) ....

example
F major
F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F

Bb MAJOR
bB-C-D-Eb-F-G-A-Bb

Eb major
Eb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb

etc...


so ... if someone says "were in the key of Db " well , alls you'd have to know is the order of flats , cause in Db ... There?s all the flats up to Db plus one new one :)

example
Db major
Db-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C-Db

That?s how the circle works both ways as to identify and familiarize yourself with keys

as for progressions ,
well V-I , IV-I , or I-V, I-IV are all the most common damn progressions cause they all resolve , and subsequently they're related to the circle

I-V (right side of circle)

C-G
G-D
D-A
etc...

I-IV (left side)
C-F
F-Bb
Bb-Eb
etc..

V-I (same thing as I-IV .... just inverted )
C-F
F-Bb
Bb-Eb

IV-I (same thing as I-V.... just inverted)
C-G
G-D
D-A
etc...


it all relates to the circle :)


well ..... if that doesn't answer any specific questions about it .... please , feel free to ask more..



and remember .... experiment . try all the shit out on your instrument .... see how it works, then ask me more if it's not clear

Cas-:peace:

dmal
07-24-2002, 07:52 PM
Shhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

(I'm having a moment of clarity)

Thanx for the help, casualty, pyro and fro.....

Casualty..........
Good luck with label shopping.
Just make sure you go out of your way to protect your music and your ass. Don't get taken for a ride. But I'm sure you know that.

and let us know when your music is online so we can hear it!!!
and again, thanx for your help.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
:down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

casualty01
07-24-2002, 10:37 PM
no problem man:) ... more than happy to help out a brotha in arms .


and im ecstatic that you understood it all , i didn't know if i made it clear enough , cause ya know if you understand something , of course to yourself, its gonna sound like your explaining it well enough , but you might be leaving out a good explenation to a certain aspect of it . so thats good ya got it :)


and like i said earlier , any further Q's you might have later on , feel free ...:)

Cas-:peace:

SY57EM
07-27-2002, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by casualty01

Bb-Eb-Ab--Db-Gb--Cb--Fb
F#-C#-G#-D#-A#-E#-B#

BEADGCF (flat order) = BEAD Girls Can Find
FCGDAEB (sharp order) = Fat Cats Get Dizzy After Eating Birds

remember either one, and you can just reverse it. or remember both, if ya want :D I just felt obliged to add something after casualty's long ass post... :bonk:
:cheers:

dmal
07-27-2002, 09:17 AM
thanx SY57EM.
memorization tools ROCK!!!!!!!
:cheers:

SY57EM
07-27-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by dmal
thanx SY57EM.
memorization tools ROCK!!!!!!!
:cheers: :p: anytime I remember some of this musical nonsense from piano :bonk:

Pyr0
08-05-2002, 10:32 AM
every granny buys dodgy fireworks, right
AAgh thanks SY57EM, that reminds me my piano lesson is in 20 minutes

Mangler
08-31-2002, 03:04 PM
Yo casualty01 your circle of fifths appears to contain 15 different notes, but only 12 notes exist in the chromatic scale...so there are a few redundant ones in there (Cb = B, for example).

miele
08-31-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Mangler
Yo casualty01 your circle of fifths appears to contain 15 different notes, but only 12 notes exist in the chromatic scale...so there are a few redundant ones in there (Cb = B, for example).

Yes, they are the same notes...but that's the whole purpose of the circle of fifths, to know how many flats and sharps are in a scale.
Please read the whole post, before you reply

casualty01
08-31-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by miele


Yes, they are the same notes...but that's the whole purpose of the circle of fifths, to know how many flats and sharps are in a scale.
Please read the whole post, before you reply

thank you kind sir ...... i was about to sink into "flame mode" but no need now :cheers:

Cas-:peace:

benjmc
08-31-2002, 05:33 PM
Thanx for the explanation Casualty...we shall now christen you the theory god...and good luck trying to start your music career an' all that...:cheers:

SY57EM
08-31-2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by benjmc
Thanx for the explanation Casualty...we shall now christen you the theory god...and good luck trying to start your music career an' all that...:cheers: are you new to the musician talk forum? :p:

:cheers:

miele
09-01-2002, 07:48 AM
Hey, where am i in your respect list SY57EM?? :D

miele
09-01-2002, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by casualty01


thank you kind sir ...... i was about to sink into "flame mode" but no need now :cheers:

You're welcome casualty... :)

Mangler
09-01-2002, 04:45 PM
Go ahead and flame, fools, but that circle of fifths is incorrect!

casualty01
09-01-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Mangler
Go ahead and flame, fools, but that circle of fifths is incorrect!

no ... its not , it is quite correct .... you obviously have no clue about what you're talking about. if you look at any circle of 5ths diagram it will have the same exact keys.... only towards the bottom, 6 will overlap, which equals 3 keys, each with 2 possible names/key signatures.... it's called "enharmonic" tones ....

try gaining knowledge before posting ....

tis better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool , than to post and remove all doubt. - Casualty01

Cas-:peace:

dmal
09-01-2002, 11:29 PM
casualty, can I please have my flame thrower back,
you borrowed it a month ago and never returned it......

and why are they called the enharmonic tones?
I sound like a kid.....
why
why
why?

casualty01
09-02-2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by dmal
casualty, can I please have my flame thrower back,
you borrowed it a month ago and never returned it......

and why are they called the enharmonic tones?
I sound like a kid.....
why
why
why?

enharmonic notes are notes that have the same pitch, but different spellings .... like B# and C ... they're really the same note as far as pitch is concerned , but are called different names depending on the situation .

same thing with keys...

the key of C# is the same key as Db

C# Major
C#-D#-E#-F#-G#-A#-B#

Db Major
Dd-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-C-Db

same exact notes pitch wise, just different spellings.


Cas-:peace:

dmal
09-02-2002, 10:47 AM
can you please give a more complex answer to my question?
that's too easy and makes me look stupid
lol
:cheers:

casualty01
12-26-2002, 01:00 AM
***Closed ***


p.s. zappp please don't dete this one lol

:cheers:

luke89
01-05-2003, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Mangler
Go ahead and flame, fools, but that circle of fifths is incorrect!

never try to prove cas wrong, ever