Latin/Jazz/Prog/Tech/Thrash Metal (GP4/5), C4C


PDA

View Full Version : Latin/Jazz/Prog/Tech/Thrash Metal (GP4/5), C4C


HaydenHohns
09-07-2011, 01:41 AM
Now that all my assessment is completed (At least for a little while), I now have time to commit to C4C. This composition has been meticulously calculated, from the most subtle of musical development (Accent change, double kick 'decorations') to the most complex (Multiple modulations within a section, chromatic polytonality), all contributes to the bigger picture, a fantastic and original piece of Prog Metal (In my opinion of course).

Musically speaking this was influenced by a lot of Latin Jazz/Fusion along with the standard Prog/Metal I listen to (Press F5 in the GP5/4 file if interested). This is also my fastest, maintaining (For the most part that is) a speed of 206 crotchet bpm and lasting only 3:23.

The title is an adaptation of a line in 'March of the Sycophants' by Exodus if anyone was wondering.

I'm happy to C4C and I hope you all enjoy.

FacetOfChaos
09-07-2011, 12:51 PM
I'll have to listen again to give a good critique, but yeah, I thought that was pretty sexy.

~Flounder~
09-11-2011, 04:45 AM
This is a rip off of Zach Siegel's (aka zakatak9389) song "Anubis" originally posted in 2008. I will upload guitar pro files tomorrow morning that you all can listen to and compare



EDIT: ok its not a ripoff but the intro riff and verse 2 in anubis are strikingly similar, and the chord progression happens to be the same. no big deal, and other than those two the songs are pretty dissimilar

guitar_jew
09-11-2011, 05:19 AM
I just looked up the thread you referenced. I definitely see a startlingly huge degree of similarity, although I think the jury's still out as for whether it's straight plagiarism.

I really would like to give HaydenHohns the benefit of the doubt, because he usually puts up quality pieces. But there's no excuse for intentionally taking someone else's ideas.

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1034543 For the thread mentioned above.

~Flounder~
09-11-2011, 05:35 AM
Thanks for posting the thread. I am not trying to knock on Hayden's compositional skills, or say that this is not a valid piece because of some potential plagarising. I did enjoy the song, all its crazy runs and such, I just wanted to give Zach Siegel his due credit for awesome riffs. Ironically enough, he was chastised because he supposedly plagarised parts of Anubis from an earlier UG composition (a 2006 MSB competition entree called "Octopus" by Jack Thorp")!!!

Also I'm not one of those people who would say "DELETE THIS THREAD CUZ HE DID A BAD THING", just maybe edit the post to include Zach as one of the influences? :) also you should crit my song http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28104494#post28104494

bloodshed344
09-11-2011, 05:45 AM
Thanks for posting the thread. I am not trying to knock on Hayden's compositional skills, or say that this is not a valid piece because of some potential plagarising. I did enjoy the song, all its crazy runs and such, I just wanted to give Zach Siegel his due credit for awesome riffs. Ironically enough, he was chastised because he supposedly plagarised parts of Anubis from an earlier UG composition (a 2006 MSB competition entree called "Octopus" by Jack Thorp")!!!

Also I'm not one of those people who would say "DELETE THIS THREAD CUZ HE DID A BAD THING", just maybe edit the post to include Zach as one of the influences? :) also you should crit my song http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28104494#post28104494
No, it definitely seems like this guy is trying to plagiarize and make it seem like he is a master composer. Look at all the god damn adjectives in the first post, this guy is a clown.

EDIT: Also you didn't actually crit this song so there's no reason why he "should" crit your song. (unless that's the punishment for plagiarism?) :p:

EDIT AGAIN: Upon further listening, the only riff that's similar is the intro riff? Is there any others? I didnt listen to all of both of them, because theyre both kind of long and boring. It seems like this guy pretty much copied the first riff, but other than that had a completely different song with different rhythms, time signatures, and notes. The only similarities I saw were the intros and the overall atmosphere of the songs.

HaydenHohns
09-11-2011, 07:28 AM
~Flounder~: I am unfamiliar with this Octopus piece, I've elaborated on Zach Siegel's but you'll have to be patient until I find that one so I cna address it properly. See the lower part of my post concerning the apparent plagiarism.

@guitar_jew: I appreciate the kind words, and you should also see the lower part of my post concerning this quarrel. I'll only critique yours if you promise a full critique on mine, and it's late right now (In Australia), so you'll have to wait until tomorrow. If you press F5 in the GP5 file, you can see who influenced the piece, I'll kindly refer to each musical aspect if you're really curious.

@bloodshed344: I appreciate you honesty on my profile. I can understand why you might label me as a "clown" due to the monolithic size of the words I regurgitate, but it is simply a preference of mine. Just as everyone here has a preference in music, I have a preference in my execution of sentence structure and vocabulary.


@Everyone: Alright, to settle things, I do agree that the intro riff from a rhythm guitar perspective is similar, there is no denying it. However, I haven't listened to this piece until it was brought to my attention today. Furthermore, I will justify this musically, so I may prove my point as to why the two compositions are very different if any viewers/listeners are skeptical.

First, is the musical direction, mine consists of various different drum patterns for musical development and direction, initially beginning with accents at the start of each phrase, then bar, until it fully develops into an Afro-Cuban pattern (World influences). The final time it comes around, I incorporate a far more extreme and technical style of drumming (Something akin to Martyr or Death). "Anubis" contains a far more straightforward drum pattern, incorporating bursts of high speed double kick patterns. This trend of differentiation continues to overlap in harmonic/melodic and textural/timbral aspects of the two compositions.

Harmonically speaking, "Anubis" is developed in this aspect due to the diatonic thirds harmonisation heard after the first riff is played, whereas my own contains no harmonised riffs. Second, is the texture. "Ignorance..." makes use of homophonic texture, meaning it consists of a melody accompanied by harmonic figures (Rhythm guitar etc). "Anubis" consists of no such melodies, however vocals may change this (It indicates sections as though vocals were intended but none are present). The timbre is also varied due to the fact that I prefer to keep my instrumental compositions as guitar-centred as possible, thus meaning no keyboards/outside instruments are incorporated into the composition. This contrasts "Anubis" as it does incorporate Keyboards/Choirs/Strings. The final contrasting element is form/structure.

Both are varied structurally. "Ignorance" takes a direct influence from Igor Stravinsky for the dissonant sections that follow this riff. "Anubis" is much simpler in terms of varied harmonic (Dis)function. Structurally, this was influenced by both 'Domination' by Symphony X and 'She Comes In Colors' by Nevermore, combinig and compressing the two into the 3:23 composition of my own, contrasting the seven minute "Anubis".

Don't hesitate to ask if anything was confusing as I am happy to elaborate on any of the points made above. It would also be appreciated that if you are comparing it to any compositions/composeres/artists, that it be done to the ones listed in the GP5 file (Press F5 once opened).

Gulli05
09-11-2011, 12:36 PM
I think this song of yours is pretty damn good, Hayden.

...and really? How can people say this is plagiarizing both songs are quite different.

DiminishedFifth
09-11-2011, 01:29 PM
I've got to agree with Hayden here: there really is no similarity aside from first riff. At all. Maybe the atmosphere, but only slightly.

If I'm going to be completely honest, I can't find much to crit! It's not one of my favorite songs, but, compositionally, I can't find much wrong!

Here's what I did find...

The transition to [F] sucked. It was just way too abrupt and came out of nowhere. Try a fade-in with the drums or something to make the listener go "I think that's where it's going to go" so as their not taken aback by it.

The harmonization in 4ths makes things very crowded when the rhythms get faster. It sounds almost "too" full. Like Bar 84, [H](D Variation) suffers from this as well (though that's my favorite section :O ).

Other than that, it was fine to me! Keep it up!

~Flounder~
09-11-2011, 02:56 PM
Hayden- After reading your thorough explanation as to the similarities (and differences) between both pieces, and re-listening to your song a few times, I have to agree that your song is not a "rip off" of Anubis, and I apologize for saying that. With the exception of the basic chord progressions being the same, and your intro being very similar to "verse 2" in Anubis, there aren't really that many other similarities in the song.

Last night when I gave it a listen i just heard the intro riff and chord progression and assumed the rest of the song was going to be other expansions on the anubis riffs. Now that that's cleared up here's my full crit:

Intro- really sick riff! lol. I like the guitar melody and harmonies that precede [B]. [B] has a very epic feeling to it, and i like that you brought in a guitar solo following the chord section. Section [D] is pretty cool with the varying tempos, my only complaint is that if you make the guitar runs legato/hammers it sounds slightly more "fluid", if that even makes sense.

[E] was awesome!!! although its unfortunate the drums cut out while the guitars were going crazy....i would have thought some epic fills would complement them nicely. [C] is cool, and i like how you changed the harmonies.

72-75 I did not like. 72 ends on a random note too abruptly, and in 74 I thought an A minor chord would have worked much better than what you had originally, its just personal preference though as now I'm used to hearing the BM CM am B chord progression :)

Sus chords!!! yay~ i like the acoustic part, and the guitar solos that come in after are good, but GOD measure 92 would be a bitch to play.

G and H Variations are pretty cool, i like how we've all heard the melody a few times now but it still sounds fresh. The ending was....abrupt? http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?p=28104494#post28104494

guitar_jew
09-11-2011, 05:36 PM
Same as Flounder above. I wasn't trying to troll or anything, but I take plagiarism very seriously, so the possibility of it warranted speaking, I think, as an issue and as a member of the T&C community, so to speak. At the same time, I only saw an unusual similarity between a few riffs, hence my saying that the jury was still out. So, sorry for making an issue out of it. Compensatory crit for my mistake?
The piece itself is pretty good, in line with most of what you put on the forums. Personally I prefer more spacy tonalities to harmonic minor (generally speaking, of course), though I'd never ask you to change what you do to suit my tastes.

When the acoustic bit [I[ comes in, the repeat of the 4 bar progression is a bit odd. Doing the two B voicings in a row sounds kind of redundant on its own. When the same thing occurs with the other instruments kicking in, it's fine, but when it's just the acoustic guitar by itself, like I said, redundant.

Everything else is in line, but the ending is very abrupt. It doesn't feel finished as is, IMO. Other than that, it's good fun to listen to.

No need for C4C- got nothing I'm too terribly interested on getting feedback on, and I won't be putting anything else I'm working on up for a while. And again, sorry for inflating the issue.

bloodshed344
09-11-2011, 06:15 PM
Long post
Let me repeat myself so I look like less of an ass:
I had heard the intros of both songs and immediately agreed with the other guys that you were a plagiarist, however, upon hearing more of both songs I saw how completely different they were. I only thought you were a clown for copying the work of someone else and using all these big words to describe a piece that you stole. I learned that this wasn't a case so I take that back.

I apologize again.

HaydenHohns
09-12-2011, 05:10 AM
@Gulli05: I appreciate the kind words. You're welcome to send me one of your own when/if it's ready at any time for the next three weeks or so.

@DiminishedFifth: Once again, I appreciate the support. I'll consider the ideas you had for the transition, but I picked it simply for the sake of having something different, which was picked up from various Jazz Musicians we play in my school's top Jazz Band (I play Trumpet as well).

@~Flounder~: Apology accepted, nobody is perfect so it would be unreasonable of anyone to expect perfection (Besides, I'm pretty sure I've been caught doing something similar to you anyway). I'll consider the "epic fills" but it was written as though it were like a chorale, and I just had to show of my newfound multi-string/finger tapping skills. I'm so glad someone noticed the modal vaiation at [C], the 2nd melody is modulated by a diatonic 3rd, while the chord progression changes inversions each time (Root, first, second). That's actually an imperfect cadence, which I believe is imperative to the 'unfinished' quality it gives to the piece. I had already tried that but I preferred the imperfect cadence due to those specific qualities. As I said earlier, I've been working on some particularly complex tapping parts lately, so section is only technical in its speed, rather than the actual execution of something like Michael Romeo of Symphony X or Chris Broderick (See his Chaos Theory column from Guitar World and you will be exuberantly pleased with his technical skills). The G/H variation is modulating and incorporating superimposition with the percussion parts. The ending was a joke to lighten up the misanthropic feelings that were consuming me at the time of writing it. I'll take a listen to your composition soon.

@guitar_jew: You wer giving me the benefit of the doubt weren't you?

Anyway, the chord progression is the same as the Intro but due to the lack of a 7 string acoustic, the last chord has to be moved up an octave. Someday though...someday...

I'm also looking into purchasing some extra percussion (Djembe's and the like) to 'spice' sections up like that, however it will have to wait due to the fact that my speakers recently stopped functioning, thus meaning I need to purchase new ones in order to have a reference for my sound.

By '"spac(e)y" tonalities, are you referring to the distance between the notes, or specific qualities that make the music sound "spac(e)y"?

I don't think you need to apologise, but let me know if you do have something up, as I'm always keen for a listen (Particularly if it's complex in some way or form).

@bloodshed344: I genuinely appreciate honesty, admitting something like that takes guts (Maybe not so much on an internet forum but it's the thought I guess).

Thanks for all of your replies, I think it's safe to put this quarrel behind us now, I'll begin C4C on ~Flounder~' piece now.

guitar_jew
09-12-2011, 02:50 PM
You were giving me the benefit of the doubt weren't you?
Essentially yes. However, I still pushed it a bit by putting up the original thread. Regardless, as you said, we can put it behind us now.


By '"spac(e)y" tonalities, are you referring to the distance between the notes, or specific qualities that make the music sound "spac(e)y"?

I don't think you need to apologise, but let me know if you do have something up, as I'm always keen for a listen (Particularly if it's complex in some way or form).

I'm referring to a quality, more than a tonality, I suppose, although distance between notes can really help with that, i.e. Misha Mansoor's guitar solos.

I have this up here, although it's not terribly complex, and it's already gotten a decent amount of responses- http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1468576

RedDeath9
09-26-2011, 03:47 AM
Sorry it's taken me so long to get the C4C done. Motivation is hard to muster up these days.

Intro is alright, gets better once the lead comes in.

B has an odd rhythm, I'm not sure if I like that or not.

C has a pretty cool solo... Wait, were you the guy always harmonizing in thirds? :p: Gah, I have to say, I much preferred the solo when it was just one guitar.

D is really cool, reminds me of PtH.

E is ****ing awesome, reminds me of Nevermore.

Not sure if bar 48 is necessary to be honest. Kinda just threw off the flow.

73 and 74 did the same for me. I'm not sure why you would think that was a good idea :haha: Unless of course, it had some meaning to it, be it mathematical or whatever... I still didn't really enjoy it.

I'm a little disappointed that it's essentially the same chord progression throughout... Then again, it could just be "that sort of song."

The key change at 113 was pulled off nicely, I liked it.

Finished the song... Hm... D and E were the really cool riffs, and the key change part was cool too. But the rest got repetitive to me, as it was essentially the same progression over and over? I would begin to only listen to the song for section D, and I'm not sure if that'd be enough to keep bringing me back.