Speed Building


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MidnightThunder
05-14-2005, 03:38 AM
I am currently working on building speed on both the electric and acoustic. I recently purchased the Guitar Speed Trainer (from online). It so far seems to be very helpful.

Has anyone else tried this? If so, did it do well for you or no?

Can anyone offer any advice on exercises, drills, ect. on helping me build my speed?

Thanks!

groll01
05-14-2005, 03:59 AM
Guitar Speed Trainer???? never heard of them do you have a link?

Craigo
05-14-2005, 04:05 AM
Rock on! Send us a free version if you can.

MidnightThunder
05-14-2005, 04:39 AM
I can't send a free version due to copyright laws of course. I paid $29.99 for it and was able to instantly download it. It is really kewl.

The link is www.guitarspeed.com

They have a money back quarentee too, so I am impressed so far.

If you decide to get it, enjoy! Let me know how it goes for you k?

Caressing Death
05-14-2005, 01:38 PM
As a 'Guitar Techniques' instructor once said "Speed is just a by-product of accuracy!" If I could write out tabs on THIS, I could show you some great excercises

sixteen times
05-14-2005, 02:10 PM
Hours of practise=speed.

:cheers:

Resiliance
05-14-2005, 03:07 PM
^Yup.

gpb0216
05-14-2005, 03:28 PM
Hours of perfect practice = perfect speed.

slash_pwns
05-14-2005, 03:30 PM
^Yeah, great Idea! Just for the part that perfect practice = impossible and perfect speed = 100 nps.

gpb0216
05-14-2005, 03:50 PM
I'm afraid you missed the point entirely. The great irony of speed lies in this:

The slower your practice, the faster your progress and the greater your potential speed.

Any lick, scale, chord or arpeggio practiced with absolute accuracy (i.e., "perfect") will teach your subconscious, in the shortest possible time, exactly what you want to hear, namely beautifully-crafted fast playing.

On the other hand, practicing with anything less than absolute accuracy teaches your subconscious that you want to hear something entirely different, namely sloppy, uncertain playing.

Try this: Resolve to practice only at a tempo at which you can play with total, drop-dead accuracy for 21 days. This will take tremendous discipline. But at the end of those 21 days I promise you'll play at a speed and with an accuracy that will amaze you.

I hope you'll post the results of your experiment. -gpb0216

sixteen times
05-14-2005, 04:14 PM
That sounds tempting, that 21 days idea...



Hmmm... do you mean practise chromatics and such this way?

gpb0216
05-14-2005, 04:32 PM
What you practice in this way for 21 days is entirely your call. But whatever you practice like this will gleam and shimmer like a precious gem at the end of that 21 days. Try it and see. If you do you'll probably never go back to how you're practicing now. I sure didn't.

e10sc
05-14-2005, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by gpb0216
What you practice in this way for 21 days is entirely your call. But whatever you practice like this will gleam and shimmer like a precious gem at the end of that 21 days. Try it and see. If you do you'll probably never go back to how you're practicing now. I sure didn't.

That sounds like something you pulled out of your ass.

gpb0216
05-14-2005, 07:46 PM
That sounds like something you pulled out of your ass.

e10sc,

Many people claim to have open minds, but your thoughtful response to an idea with which you apparently weren't familiar really sets you apart.

Actually, I first encountered this approach to practicing at the U.S. Armed Forces School of Music in 1976 (please see my profile). In the ensuing 29 years I've practiced this way exclusively and will never go back to trying to force speed. My playing is orders of magnitude smoother and faster than it was when I was a 23-year-old rock star wannabe.

I urge you to give it a try. As I mentioned earlier, this approach requires enormous discipline, but the results are well worth it. If you do get through the 21 days, please post your impressions of the process.

Thanks again for your encouraging message.

All the best,
gpb0216

e10sc
05-14-2005, 11:00 PM
Sorry about sounding like an ass, I really didn't mean it. It's just everyone has their ways of doing things, and they always think it's the perfect way to become the next Jimi Hendrix, so don't take offense. I still consider myself a beginner(damn theory) but once you've been playing for a decent amount of time, mastering most songs shouldn't take 21 days. When I first started playing I took everything slow, every chord was emphasized and perfect, every riff was slow and pronounced. So your technique is definately useful, but if you've been playing for 30 years, you really should be able to pick up and song and play it without taking the 21 days.

UtBDan
05-14-2005, 11:08 PM
^ that's not what he said though. It wasn't "picking up a song", it was being able to play faster. As in, you can play a faster triplet if you play it slowly with perfect accuracy for 21 days.

DorkusMalorkus
05-14-2005, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by gpb0216
That sounds like something you pulled out of your ass.

e10sc,

Many people claim to have open minds, but your thoughtful response to an idea with which you apparently weren't familiar really sets you apart.

Actually, I first encountered this approach to practicing at the U.S. Armed Forces School of Music in 1976 (please see my profile). In the ensuing 29 years I've practiced this way exclusively and will never go back to trying to force speed. My playing is orders of magnitude smoother and faster than it was when I was a 23-year-old rock star wannabe.

I urge you to give it a try. As I mentioned earlier, this approach requires enormous discipline, but the results are well worth it. If you do get through the 21 days, please post your impressions of the process.

Thanks again for your encouraging message.

All the best,
gpb0216

Do you take every song for 21 days, or is that just a variable in the whole technique of learning?

Couldn't you take a song and play it slow for 2 days and then be able to play it normally?

I'm not questioning your theory because it obviously worked for you, I'm just interested in why so long...

e10sc
05-15-2005, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by UtBDan
^ that's not what he said though. It wasn't "picking up a song", it was being able to play faster. As in, you can play a faster triplet if you play it slowly with perfect accuracy for 21 days.

Oh okay, well then my same statement could still be made. You still need to push yourself. Think about it this way, what if you're aspiring to be a cross country runner and want to get in shape. If you take the slow method and just walk every day for 21 days, you'll have that route memorized and you'll walk with ease, but you won't be able to run it. For guitar why don't you start slow, and gradually push yourself every day, getting better everyday. And do this without compromising technique. I don't have anything against GPB, I've seen his posts and he seems very knowledgable and I'm sure he's very good at guitar, but I just really disagree with this 21 day practice routine.

casualty01
05-15-2005, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by DorkusMalorkus
Do you take every song for 21 days, or is that just a variable in the whole technique of learning?

Couldn't you take a song and play it slow for 2 days and then be able to play it normally?

I'm not questioning your theory because it obviously worked for you, I'm just interested in why so long...

well, he may only be using that amount as an example of a long bout of concentration and dedicated effort, which in and of itself will produce amazing results (i've shown this very concept to students by expressing to them that I want them to take one scale segment or lick and play it 20 beats slower then they know they can play it, non-stop, for one hour.... and then see how fast they can go after that one hour.... sure enough, they usually beat their top speed by about 10-20 bpms) ....

he's showing you the extreme benefits on a larger scale as it applies in the long run... which I also make clear to me wee pupils. lets face it, we all know you could practice something all day nice and slow and accurate and be playing it super fast and fluidly by the end of the day. but the next day, you gotta start all over again. each day retaining a little bit of the previous days progress.

he's pointing out the continuing process of that effect over a 21 day period.

his example though (and I think this also might be why he used the 21 day paradigm) coincides with sound psychological principles..

Humans as you know are creatures of habit, and it's generally accepted that a time table of 21 days is the requirment for a firm establishment of a new habit...

it's the reason why most diet/eating changes and exercise regimens only last about a week or 2 (besides caloric deficiencies kicking in your bodies feast or famen responses which cause you to binge....) they're just not given enough time to fully entrench themselves in your brain as habits, where as the old habits are fully entrenched and more easily adhered to.

think of it like this.... take an overgrown field (your brain), if there's a beaten path through that mess (a particular habit) it's easiest to just follow that path every day on your trek to wherever. in order to create a new path (new habit) you have to trudge through overgrown weeds, twicks and sticks, loosing your footing etc... and it's gonna take a little while, day after day of treading that new path (building that habit by repititious actions) for that path to be beaten down (habit to be formed) but by the time you do, the old path (old bad habit) has since started to get overgrown and not really be that easy of a path anymore...

therefore the new path has replaced the old

new habit > old habit

it just so happens that mentally speaking, that process (for a new habit to take root and begin guiding your actions naturally, like the old habits did) takes 21 days.



the only thing I'd add to his bit is to include speed bursts. while practicing slowly does improve speed and accuracy greatly, adding speed bursts in every so often will do so more effectively.

think of practicing for a race... a 100 yard dash lets say. well, you're not gonna go out on day one and walk 5 yards, go back, walk 5 yards again, go back, walk those 5 yards again etc... then the next day, at the same speed, walk 8 yards, etc..etc..

however, while there are similarities to the comparison, the guitar is very different. thats why we must do things slowly slowly slowly to work on our accuracy and train the muscles to work in the exact path of motion, in order to build comfort, stability and most of all familiarity... (really, that's all speed really is) ...and really, even runners do the "slow" type of practice that we do.... by lifting weights. they're building their muscles to endure greater stress for longer periods of time..

but moving very fast feels very differently than playing slowly...
we must add in speed bursts and try and play top speed for short periods of time to train our muscles, our hands, and our brain, to be comfortable playing fast.

so say you were to do the 21 day thing (which would also prove to be much more beneficial in more ways than just speed development, believe me.) and say you practiced 2 hours a day doing that one exercise.... I might

play that at one tempo for an hour straight
5 minute break
5 minutes of continuous speed bursts ( that means play it fast, stop, play it fast again, stop, etc... not just in a continuous loop)
20 minutes slow
5 minutes speed bursts
20 minutes slow
and then top if off playing ridiculously fast for a minute or so.

this last minute or two is actually very important... paying no attention to anything but effortless speed.... that means no muscle tension, no thought, no nothing, just motion.

don't even worry about accuracy. just move your fingers in line with the lick or exercise (as by now they know full well where they're supposed to go) and move your picking hand as required (it also will know it's path by now. the only difference being that the accuracy & syncronization isn't quite there betwixt the two lol)

but that doesn't matter for this purpose. what you're teaching your hands in this 1-2 minute segment is how it feels to move effortlessly and without impedence of thought.

the improvements are drastic if given enough time... hence the 21 days thing. he's very sound in his recommendation.

also, more importantly, the BENEFIT of said practice will bleed over and change all other aspects of your playing. you'll look at and approach practicing very different from then on. all entirely to your benefit. these are but a few of the things I meant before when I said (which would also prove to be much more beneficial in more ways than just speed development, believe me.)

he doesn't mean "always do the 21 day thing" and he certainly doesn't mean that everything you ever learn whether it be a two note lick or an entire solo has to be approached one at a time for 21 days a piece.

he's saying give this a shot and watch how it transforms your playing, your technical ability and most importantly your perspective and approach to the guitar and your understanding of how your body learns and how you progress when slow... dedicated... concentrated effort is put into achieving that result.


Cas-:peace:

Resiliance
05-15-2005, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by gpb0216
I'm afraid you missed the point entirely. The great irony of speed lies in this:

The slower your practice, the faster your progress and the greater your potential speed.

Any lick, scale, chord or arpeggio practiced with absolute accuracy (i.e., "perfect") will teach your subconscious, in the shortest possible time, exactly what you want to hear, namely beautifully-crafted fast playing.

On the other hand, practicing with anything less than absolute accuracy teaches your subconscious that you want to hear something entirely different, namely sloppy, uncertain playing.

Try this: Resolve to practice only at a tempo at which you can play with total, drop-dead accuracy for 21 days. This will take tremendous discipline. But at the end of those 21 days I promise you'll play at a speed and with an accuracy that will amaze you.

I hope you'll post the results of your experiment. -gpb0216


I know.


That's what I did for a year :p:


He's right, listen to him :)

When playing slow, you're just programming your fingers for when you're playing fast.

Oh yeah, and about the speed burst thing... I disagree, for when you might make a mistake, you could **** up your muscle memory quite a bit.

amped00
05-15-2005, 08:17 AM
Originally posted by gpb0216
That sounds like something you pulled out of your ass.

e10sc,

Many people claim to have open minds, but your thoughtful response to an idea with which you apparently weren't familiar really sets you apart.

Actually, I first encountered this approach to practicing at the U.S. Armed Forces School of Music in 1976 (please see my profile). In the ensuing 29 years I've practiced this way exclusively and will never go back to trying to force speed. My playing is orders of magnitude smoother and faster than it was when I was a 23-year-old rock star wannabe.

I urge you to give it a try. As I mentioned earlier, this approach requires enormous discipline, but the results are well worth it. If you do get through the 21 days, please post your impressions of the process.

Thanks again for your encouraging message.

All the best,
gpb0216

im in! ill PM you at the end of the 21 days.

metallikatt
05-15-2005, 09:09 AM
much cheaper way. chromatic scales+metronome=speed :p:

gpb0216
05-15-2005, 09:20 AM
If you're interested in getting a more detailed explanation of this "slower practice = faster playing" thought process, I can highly recommend the book Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician Within by Kenny Werner. Kenny plays jazz piano, but what he says applies to any instrument. It's been out a while, so it's probably in your local library. If not, Amazon has it.

Resiliance
05-15-2005, 09:23 AM
^Another book in that vain would be "The principles of correct practice for guitar" by Jamey Andreas, which deals which issues like muscle memory and tension VERY thoroughly.

sixteen times
05-15-2005, 03:18 PM
So for the next 21 days I should play super slow... is that it?


If so, I'm in.

:cheers:

SHANANDO
05-15-2005, 03:27 PM
Yeah same here when I get my guitar re-stringed. I need to build up some speed after my exams so that should keep me busy.

DorkusMalorkus
05-15-2005, 03:47 PM
Cas, thanks alot, it was a very inspiring read. I enjoyed it, and will try to do exactly what you said...

You really should write a lesson about that giving examples of what to play (if you haven't already).

casualty01
05-15-2005, 03:52 PM
Originally posted by gpb0216
If you're interested in getting a more detailed explanation of this "slower practice = faster playing" thought process, I can highly recommend the book Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician Within by Kenny Werner. Kenny plays jazz piano, but what he says applies to any instrument. It's been out a while, so it's probably in your local library. If not, Amazon has it.

excellent book, it's basically my bible for practicing and outlook on music in general. and that's where I got most of if not all of my practice philosophies from.

including the playing fast without worry of accuracy bit. although he doesn't call them speed bursts it's part of his Practice Diamond. I make it a point to read that book once a month and I do the medititations daily. really does make a huge difference.


and resiliance, whether you agree or not, it's a very sound method of increasing your speed. short speed bursts will not screw up your muscle memory. if you play slowly and accurately for an hour and then do 5 minutes of effortless "faster than you can accurately play" bursts, that in no way is going to screw up all the work that you had done, it only compounds your progress by teaching your hands to feel comfortable playing fast.

it's a technique/method held valuble by many top players including Kenny Werner, John Petrucci, Terry Syrek, Michael Angelo, Jimmy Bruno, Troy Stetina and Michael Romeo to name but a few. and there's nothing even remotely bad you can say about any of their speed and accuracy or picking techniques (well, maybe kenny's since he doesn't play guitar :p: but his technique is flawless on the piano)

I'm just sorry that you're not willing to give it a go due to your preconcieved muscle memory hangup.

just remember, the slow is for the muscle memory, the bursts are for developing the feeling of effortlessness while playing fast.

Cas-:peace:

Resiliance
05-15-2005, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by casualty01
I'm just sorry that you're not willing to give it a go due to your preconcieved muscle memory hangup.

just remember, the slow is for the muscle memory, the bursts are for developing the feeling of effortlessness while playing fast.

Cas-:peace:


Hold your horses mate, I speak from experience, it has ****ed up MY muscle memory before, so please do not be so presumptuous as to assume I'm talking out of my ass, thank you.


I was just sharing my experience.

Sorry about that.


Oh, and about the "effortlessly" playing fast, that's where "The Correct Principles Of Guitar Practice" by Jamey Andreas comes in, I suggest you take a gander.

sixteen times
05-15-2005, 04:25 PM
I'm aprehensive (sp?) to do these short speed bursts now, after what Resi said... hmm... :confused:


:cheers:

casualty01
05-15-2005, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Resiliance
Hold your horses mate, I speak from experience, it has ****ed up MY muscle memory before, so please do not be so presumptuous as to assume I'm talking out of my ass, thank you.


I was just sharing my experience.

Sorry about that.

whoa, wipe your tears hombre'... I wasn't being presumptious, nor did I address you in any sort of nasty manner. nor did I suggest you didn't know anything of the subject. alls I said was that it is a very sound concept that will produce results and that I was sorry that you wouldn't try it. if you will re-read your last post, you made no mention of having tried it before, alls you said was "for when you MIGHT make a mistake you MIGHT fuck up your muscle memory" .... two very distinct words that imply assumption on your part rather than knowledge.

had you said you've tried it before, I might have suggested that if it did screw up your muscle memory you either

1. didn't practice slow enough for a long enough period of time on the material/exercise you decided to play fast

2. didn't remain completely relaxed and clear of any thought as you did the speed bursts

3. didn't spend a long enough time applying this concept (although, if done correclty, you'll notice the difference in one session) to the material at hand.

4. weren't doing it right...


all them very important, but due to your last post, I would direct your attention to #4 especially...

the idea isn't to play the passage perfectly (you just did that for an hour at a retardly slow speed), mistakes are to be expected (and accepted for the time being). the point is to move your fingers and picking hand faster then you CAN play accurately. as long as there is no tension, strain or intervention from the ego then your teaching your body, in that 1-2 minutes, a very valuable lesson as that is to play fast effortlessly.

I tought the same thing for the longest time and for the same reason, I tried playing fast combined with slow and it only seemed to impede me and create more tension.

but thats because I was doing it incorrectly. I wasn't paying attention to effortlessness and relaxing, I was only trying to play it fast AND perfect (which seems to be what you tried, according to your posts) when physically I could not do it without tension.... that tension leads to poor playing and inevitably messes with the muscle memory. (also, like #1 I wasn't practicing it slowly for long enough)

once I learned how to apply it properly, I started soaring in my playing ability.

now, had I gone "nope, doesn't work. I tried it, and there's no way I might have been doing it wrong so I'm not gonna listen".. I never would have gotten past a certain point. but instead (when my teacher first brought the concept of the concept of using speed bursts and kenny's book to my attention) I went "really? I tried that already and it didn't work.... hmm, well here's what I did. what's different about what you're saying and what do I need to change?"

so indeed I have been where everyone once has, I've been where you are and have done what you did, found the same problem (that playing fast was screwing shit up for me) and decided to listen, learn, experiment and then change my approach, and am now where I'm at now.

so please don't be so presumptious as to think I also don't know what I'm talking about ;)

Cas-:peace:

casualty01
05-15-2005, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Resiliance
Oh, and about the "effortlessly" playing fast, that's where "The Correct Principles Of Guitar Practice" by Jamey Andreas comes in, I suggest you take a gander.


I have "taken a gander", a couple of students of mine tried them out. remember... I teach the guitar, I'm pretty familiar with 90% of the instructional material out there. (including all the philosphy books, esoteric approaches, meditative books etc..)

basically it's kenny werners book watered down and applied to the guitar.

after reading through that book I'd never actually buy it (which I always do if I like any book or find that it may be of some use). it has some sound advice in it (and some rambling garbage) but the same thing is found in kenny's book, only more in depth and not as annoying to read imo.


Cas-:peace:

casualty01
05-15-2005, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by sixteen times
I'm aprehensive (sp?) to do these short speed bursts now, after what Resi said... hmm... :confused:


:cheers:

lol, this is one of those things i do not yet understand of the human psyche..

1. A seasoned guitar teacher and professional musician has posted about the benefits of using small intermitant speed bursts

2. A master musician who plays with the greatest musicians in the world and is held by all in high regard has written and entire book on effortless mastery of your intsrument in which playing faster than you can accurately play for short periods is a part of his advice

3. some of the fastest and most deadly accurate players in the world advocate this very concept every time they're asked about technique practice. including many more than the names I mentioned before

yet... you're apprehensive about it because some random 16 yr old bedroom shredder (no offence resiliance, really. we were all there at one time or another) has quams with the concept that all these experienced musicians who have attained that elusive technical mastery of the instrument are promoting..?


lol... ok.

well, I do understand the apprehensiveness... I do. that's the ego messing with you. we all have it.... it's saying "oh no, what if I try this breifly for 21 days and it doesn't work? well, I don't wanna lose any progress I've already made, so even though it might propell my playing and approach on the instrument far beyond what I realize right now, we should just stick to what we're doing now... "

it's a common thing. the fear of realizing theres a better way (if that better way appears to be, at first, slow) because if you find out there is a better way, the mind then has a way of kicking yourself for not trying that thing sooner and going "man, all that wasted time doing it the old way" ....

so rather than the pain of somehow thinking you've wasted time, we just stick to our old habits and patterns in the hopes that it'll work out best.

and hey, if you do try it and do it correctly and it doesn't work (which I doubt) then it's not wasted time, it's not failure.... you learned something. you learned what didn't work. and that in and of itself, if it's the only thing you learn or get out of it, is a valuable lesson.

anyways... enough with the psychology of it all...

I suggest you take the wise road and at least apply the principle (this sound principle that is known to work and used by outstanding players all over the world) again... correctly... and see if it has anything to offer you.


Cas-:peace:

slimz
05-15-2005, 07:58 PM
cas i think u have to much time on your hands...

casualty01
05-15-2005, 08:06 PM
what the hell does that mean?

I educate myself on aspects of that which I have a passion for, therefore I have too much time?

I study and educate myself on the psychology of success and achievement therefore I have too much time?

great mindset you have there buddy.

Cas-:peace:

UtBDan
05-15-2005, 08:35 PM
I love you Cas.


If I did an hour of quote unquote retardidly slow scales with only my third playing finger (I'm a bassist here), do you think
a, I would get faster on my fretting hand
and
b, would I get my 3rd finger up to playing speed?

LedZep4EVA
05-15-2005, 09:12 PM
pracitce accuracy

MidnightThunder
05-16-2005, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by sixteen times
Hours of practise=speed.

:cheers:

That is what this program focuses on. Just that. Practice does equal speed if you follow the right steps. The program speaks of how many quitars (even the famous ones) have come to a hump they can't get over and it is because they were not practicing properly. The key is to know what to practice and how to do it to obtain the results you desire. I know it sounds funny but after reading through the entire thing I agree with it. They set you up with your own "speed profile" so you can find where your current speed is and in what area of playing your weakest in. They measure in many different areas. So you can find out exactly what your good at and what your not. Also, you can bring your weak areas up by working systematically. I love it so far.

I believe if you go to the web site it will explain it far better than I'm able to. I have had it less than a week and I can say at this point it is really helping me develop skills that I did not have before, not just in the area of speed, but in others that I wanted to accel in.

You might want to check it out. If any disagree or agree with the theory this person (not sure of his name) uses, please feel free to let me know your comments. I don't mind at all knowing what others think and why. That is how I learn even more.

gpb0216
05-16-2005, 09:33 AM
Another view on the topic...

http://www.guitarsite.com/hotlicks/viewtopic.php?t=435?nl347

sixteen times
05-16-2005, 10:38 AM
Thanks Cas. As soon as I get my metronome i'll head straight upstairs to my bedroom, and play all the "shred licks" I know super, super slow.

For a long time.

:cheers:

realsystem
05-16-2005, 11:31 AM
Brilliant Cas and gpb0216, and i also highly recommend "Liberating the Master Musician Within" by Kenny Werner. Brilliant book and a great read.

Take it slow, do Cas' excericise of playing at a constant tempo, 5mins break, 20mins slow, then 5mins bursts etc.

Do it for 21 days, hell, do it for the rest of your life.

With great accuracy comes great speed, remember the story of the tortoise and the hare? (assuming the tortoise did a little speed burst in the last 50 yards)

:cheers:

public property
05-16-2005, 03:14 PM
Cas, if you still listening, do you have your music online still?
There was a song You had about a year ago, maybe more I can't remember how it went cause there was some pretty fast playing in it and i hadn't even begun to shred then and now I wanna hear it again.

sixteen times
05-16-2005, 03:35 PM
Public, I have already PMed him about that and right now he is busy with various things, so maybe in the future.


:cheers:

MidnightThunder
05-17-2005, 02:22 AM
Originally posted by Caressing Death
As a 'Guitar Techniques' instructor once said "Speed is just a by-product of accuracy!" If I could write out tabs on THIS, I could show you some great excercises


Caressing......
Are we not allowed to post tabs here? Just checking....

Is there anyway you can maybe email me some of those great exercises? I truely can use all the help I can get.


Thanks
:cool:

MidnightThunder
05-17-2005, 02:27 AM
Originally posted by gpb0216
I'm afraid you missed the point entirely. The great irony of speed lies in this:

The slower your practice, the faster your progress and the greater your potential speed.

Any lick, scale, chord or arpeggio practiced with absolute accuracy (i.e., "perfect") will teach your subconscious, in the shortest possible time, exactly what you want to hear, namely beautifully-crafted fast playing.

On the other hand, practicing with anything less than absolute accuracy teaches your subconscious that you want to hear something entirely different, namely sloppy, uncertain playing.

Try this: Resolve to practice only at a tempo at which you can play with total, drop-dead accuracy for 21 days. This will take tremendous discipline. But at the end of those 21 days I promise you'll play at a speed and with an accuracy that will amaze you.

I hope you'll post the results of your experiment. -gpb0216


GP...

The program I have very closely agrees with that....except, it says to find the speed your comfortable with, practice that with great precision, then increase your speed all the up until you can't play it, and then decrease all the way back down to where you originally started. Not only will it be easier on the way back down but your practicing precision but you also finding out what your "speed profile" is. :cool:

MidnightThunder
05-17-2005, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by sixteen times
That sounds tempting, that 21 days idea...



Hmmm... do you mean practise chromatics and such this way?

Just to add....the program I have measures singles, doubles, chromatic, scale, pattern and random. It doesn't put a time limit on how quickly you will learn but it says you will see a dramatic difference each week. Each of these things are measured separately and you build from there.

Any thoughts are appreciated :)

MidnightThunder
05-17-2005, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by gpb0216
What you practice in this way for 21 days is entirely your call. But whatever you practice like this will gleam and shimmer like a precious gem at the end of that 21 days. Try it and see. If you do you'll probably never go back to how you're practicing now. I sure didn't.

gp....

what type of exercises did you practice over and over again? did you come up with them yourself or did you follow something you read or seen somewhere? Just curious because I would like to learn more too.

MidnightThunder
05-17-2005, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by gpb0216
That sounds like something you pulled out of your ass.

e10sc,

Many people claim to have open minds, but your thoughtful response to an idea with which you apparently weren't familiar really sets you apart.

Actually, I first encountered this approach to practicing at the U.S. Armed Forces School of Music in 1976 (please see my profile). In the ensuing 29 years I've practiced this way exclusively and will never go back to trying to force speed. My playing is orders of magnitude smoother and faster than it was when I was a 23-year-old rock star wannabe.

I urge you to give it a try. As I mentioned earlier, this approach requires enormous discipline, but the results are well worth it. If you do get through the 21 days, please post your impressions of the process.

Thanks again for your encouraging message.

All the best,
gpb0216


gp......

I admire your self control. I am completely intersted in hearing more of what you have to say about this so please if you get a chance can you explain in a little more detail. I would love to give it a shot. I am far from perfect, and love to learn from those who know more than me which is almost everybody here LOL, and you will never hear me ever ever ever critisizing someone for merely trying to help or contribute to another persons love of music. Sorry, had to say that.

MidnightThunder
05-17-2005, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by e10sc
Sorry about sounding like an ass, I really didn't mean it. It's just everyone has their ways of doing things, and they always think it's the perfect way to become the next Jimi Hendrix, so don't take offense. I still consider myself a beginner(damn theory) but once you've been playing for a decent amount of time, mastering most songs shouldn't take 21 days. When I first started playing I took everything slow, every chord was emphasized and perfect, every riff was slow and pronounced. So your technique is definately useful, but if you've been playing for 30 years, you really should be able to pick up and song and play it without taking the 21 days.

e10...

I was under the impression that even someone who has played 100 years could take months to learn a song depending on the style of music they currently play and the style they are trying to learn. Also, everybody learns at a different pace...it is just my opinion, but it is always best to encourage as opposed to discourage, so time limits would force disappointment down alot of people's throats because some just can't do it. I'm one of those. What do you think? Any thoughts are appreciated, again...I'm here to learn.

I am working with theory now, and oh my goodness there is so much to learn! I wonder if I'll ever get it. I'm just glad that there are alot of people here with more experience than me willing to offer advice or I don't know what I would do.

MidnightThunder
05-17-2005, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by slimz
cas i think u have to much time on your hands...

I have to add to this too....sorry in advance and I mean no offense whatsoever....

people like cas are the ones that are helping me to become the guitar player I am today. Now, I'm not that great, but I am learning alot from those people. I do not think these people have no lives, I think they have the same deep love, passion, and determination to strive for what they love. I do too and have a HUGE respect for those who are will to take the time out of their busy schedules to share their knowledge with people they don't even know all over the world to help them.....even when it means that some will turn around and critisize, argue, and belittle them for doing so...

I'm sorry but people pay good money to hear the things that I am learning from this forum. It is a gift beyond anything money could buy. So, for those of you who do this, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You have and I'm sure will continue to give me knowledge, know-how, and confidence in myself to pursue this lifelong dream I've had of playing the guitar with the best of them.

Please don't be discouraged from people who don't understand or share the same passion.

Corwinoid
05-17-2005, 04:05 AM
There's really no need to post 7 times in response to a thread...

I'll chip in here, and I would have sooner if I hadn't been busy all day... the point of practicing slower is to focus on coordination. By conciously paying attention to the movements your making, and keeping them controlled, refining them, and minimizing the amount of movement you need, your actual technique improves.

To give an example... generally we have the notion of picking our fingers up off the fretboard to change their position. Say your arch to clear a string with your ring finger lifts it about a half inch over the action of the string you're clearing... doesn't seem like a lot. But think about this, if you can focus on reducing the amount of motion you make normally, and bring that down to about a quarter of an inch, you've MORE than halved the amount of effort that motion takes. By the fact that you're focusing on making that movement more cleanly, you're also working on making it more accurate, as a side effect.

The less work you have to do, the faster you can do it.

Now that's just one thing to actually focus on, when you're going slow... slow enough that you have the time to actually think about what you're doing, instead of just throwing your fingers around.

The overall idea is that by slowing down, you give yourself a chance to correct the minor imperfections in what you're doing, and to simply do it better, and more efficiently. By training yourself to do it better--not something that just happens by 'practicing', but by focusing--your entire playing improves, from tone, to technical skill, to speed.

No comment on the speed bursts, btw... haven't tried that yet ;)

F-3
05-17-2005, 04:48 AM
Very nice thread, this is why I love ug :) So much knowledge in here, and for free :)

I did that slow practise thing before, but apparently never put enough consequence behind it...

thanks to everyone who posted in this thread :cheers:

sixteen times
05-17-2005, 10:49 AM
Excellent thread, I can see this being archived.

:cheers:

Freepower
05-17-2005, 11:21 AM
^ i demand this archived!

I havent said much so far in this thread, but its an excellent thread a lot of people would like a look in.

saddam
05-18-2005, 02:53 PM
little question: say you've been playing a solo at 70bpm(the slow practise thing), at what speed should those 'speed bursts' be? 100? 120? 150? 200? 300? 6000? ...

Freepower
05-18-2005, 03:08 PM
also - say you've practiced an hour at this slow pace - are you "allowed" to just go back to playing normal speed for when you want to compose or something?

gpb0216
05-18-2005, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Freepower
also - say you've practiced an hour at this slow pace - are you "allowed" to just go back to playing normal speed for when you want to compose or something?

Of course! The beauty of this approach is that, in my experience, the forays back into the "normal-speed" world are much more thoughtful and focused and produce wonderful creativity. The 21-Day process refers to the quest for speed, which is where this entire thread got started.

I believe you'll find, though, that the mindset you begin to develop while pursuing the 21-Day approach will quickly draw you back to the "slowed-down" woodshed. It's an absolutely fascinating process. I'm very much looking forward to hearing about your 21-day experiment.

slash_pwns
05-18-2005, 09:09 PM
So gpb0216 (for lack of a better name), How fast can you play after using this technique for so many years.

(try not to read that as a smart ass coment)

gpb0216
05-18-2005, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by slash_pwns
So gpb0216 (for lack of a better name), How fast can you play after using this technique for so many years.

(try not to read that as a smart ass coment)

Absolutely not. I figured this question was going to show up eventually.

My name is G. Patrick Bryant, by the way.

I'm 52 years old and stopped trying to be "fast" the way you're probably thinking of fast a long time ago. In fact, I concluded that I needed to get out of that unwinnable race after listening to the John McLaughlin / Carlos Santana collaboration "Love, Devotion, Surrender" for the first time 'way back in 1972 or so. That record (who uses that term anymore?) still scares the hell out of me.

Having gotten that "confession" out of the way, I'm very comfortable playing just about anything recorded by my guitar beacons Jimi Hendrix, Steve Howe, Alex Liefson and the almost-superhuman Duane Allman. How fast does that make me?

But my ultimate hero, the guitarist whose Gretsch Duo-Jet I'm not even worthy to carry, is the late George Harrison. I've never heard anyone say his name and use the word "fast" in the same sentence. But in my mind, he was the absolute best guitarist ever in terms of taste, stylistic appropriateness and playing a melodic, singing line. Oh, if I could just play like George, may he rest in peace.

Thanks for asking. And how fast are you?

theboss
05-18-2005, 11:35 PM
I heard if you mix different chemicals you'll get some really good
SPEED!!! lol lol lol J/K ha hah ahahahahah!

MidnightThunder
05-19-2005, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by sixteen times
Excellent thread, I can see this being archived.

:cheers:

Hey! I feel important now! I posted something that people actually talked about. WOOOHOOO! Makes a newbie feel good believe it or not.

I love this whole site, everybody is so helpful.

MidnightThunder
05-19-2005, 05:24 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Corwinoid
[B]There's really no need to post 7 times in response to a thread...

are you referring to me???????

I do not know how to do anything else, and since it is bothering you that I am doing this, please feel free to tell me how to do otherwise and how I'm suppose to handle it.

I was under the impression I was doing it right. I did "quote" posts and sent one per person I was answering.....is this against the rules? I am not being rude in anyway nor do I mean any offense, but I am overwhelmed at learning to manuver here as this whole entire posting thing is new to me unlike most of you.....so please correct whatever I am doing wrong.

Are you a moderator? I don't remember who they all are?

I notice in other threads the same people post more than once to keep the messages flowing. Rarely have I seen someone put every single thing in one single post.....unless I am wrong please correct me.

If someone would like me to stop posting, please just say so and I will. I don't know what all of you do that is why I'm here. I made no secret of that. This includes how to use the forums, which I am slowly learning (by making mistakes).

gapster
05-19-2005, 05:53 AM
Originally posted by gpb0216
I'm 52 years old and stopped trying to be "fast" the way you're probably thinking of fast a long time ago. In fact, I concluded that I needed to get out of that unwinnable race after listening to the John McLaughlin / Carlos Santana collaboration "Love, Devotion, Surrender" for the first time 'way back in 1972 or so. That record (who uses that term anymore?) still scares the hell out of me.


1.since when playing guitar is a competition/race ?
2.why did you gave up so fast ?that is not a good reason/excuse to give up on speed

speed is not everything in playing guitar but it is also an important skill ..

heggazz
05-19-2005, 06:11 AM
You can quote several people in the one post and answer them respectively. Also if you make a mistake you may edit or delete your post by clicking on the edit button at the bottom of your post next to the quote button.
The moderators for Musician Talk's names are at the top of the MT page above all the other online users names and they are in bold.
No one wants you to stop posting altogether, just the excessive posting. When you can cram all you want to say in one post it is better than just posting a lot of times one after the other.

gpb0216
05-19-2005, 09:50 AM
Originally posted by gapster
1.since when playing guitar is a competition/race ?
2.why did you gave up so fast ?that is not a good reason/excuse to give up on speed

speed is not everything in playing guitar but it is also an important skill ..

I knew my reply was going to be misunderstood by some and I hesitated to post it at all, but your questions call for clarification from me and I thank you for them.

1) Early in my guitar-playing life (pre-"Love, Devotion, Surrender") I was consumed with achieving ever-greater playing speed. In fact, all of my guitar-playing peers were likewise focused on one thing only: SPEED! During that time, playing the guitar was a competition for me, and I was in the "hunt", if I do say so myself.

Then, in the early '70s, my best friend (and guitar speed sweepstakes competitor) introduced me to John McLaughlin.

Game over. Thank you for playing.

Nothing I had ever heard had remotely prepared me for the literal torrent of crystal-clear notes pouring out of Dennis' stereo that afternoon. I'm talking about "oh-my-God-why-did-I-ever-think-I-could-play-the-guitar" SPEED! And right then, gapster, I abandoned speed as a way of measuring myself as a guitarist. Always remember this: No matter how fast you can play the guitar (or any other instrument, for that matter), somebody somewhere can play it faster!

So, the short answer to your first question is: At one time playing the guitar was a competitive event for me. It no longer is, and I hope it's not for anyone else reading this post, either.

2) I never once said I had given up on speed. What I did do, however, was lay the quest for speed aside altogether for a few years. Then, while studying at the Armed Forces School of Music (AFSOM) in 1976 I met a true guitar hero in my instructor, MU1 Mike Smith. I'd be amazed if anyone outside the Armed Forces music community has ever heard of Mike, but buddy, he was awesome.

Anyway, Mike introduced me to the 21-Day program I've mentioned several times in this thread. Since that time I've used nothing else.

So let me finish by saying that I do love playing fast. In fact, there's nothing quite like the satisfaction of burning through a beautiful fast solo in front of a crowd, as I'm sure you know. It's just that I don't pursue speed for its own sake anymore. I play plenty fast now, and if I get faster by practicing the way I know and love, then so much the better.

I hope this answers your questions, gapster.

All the best,
gpb

saddam
05-19-2005, 11:22 AM
could someone please answer my question, i really want to know before i start this 21 day thing, i don't want to **** up my muscle memory!

gpb0216
05-19-2005, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by saddam
could someone please answer my question, i really want to know before i start this 21 day thing, i don't want to **** up my muscle memory!

What's your question?

saddam
05-19-2005, 11:43 AM
"little question: say you've been playing a solo at 70bpm(the slow practise thing), at what speed should those 'speed bursts' be? 100? 120? 150? 200? 300? 6000? ..." that was my question(i don't know how to do the quote thing...)

gapster
05-19-2005, 05:45 PM
alright gpb ...

you know sometimes i am just soooo sick of the whole world telling me shredding sucks ,speed sucks ..somebody is always faster ...etc

it is really unfair now you see the world have this concept "you don't need to be good to make good music " ..people who have talents and practise hell alot got rejected by the world..where as cheap ass pop/punk , hip hop..the talking music gets all the money

Corwinoid
05-19-2005, 05:51 PM
Part of it, gapster, is your wonderful attitude.

gpb0216
05-19-2005, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by gapster
alright gpb ...

you know sometimes i am just soooo sick of the whole world telling me shredding sucks ,speed sucks ..somebody is always faster ...etc

Gapster,

I don't think you could have misunderstood me more totally.

At no time have I ever said that "shredding sucks" or that "speed sucks". I have been playing the guitar for more than 40 years and I know how much work it takes to play truly fast. You have my utmost respect and admiration, and I really mean that.

I did say that "somebody is always faster". That's just reality. I also said that I don't believe anyone should judge their own or anybody else's musicianship by how fast they can play. Please accept my apologies if these statements offend you.

Originally posted by gapster
it is really unfair now you see the world have this concept "you don't need to be good to make good music " ..people who have talents and practise hell alot got rejected by the world..where as cheap ass pop/punk , hip hop..the talking music gets all the money

And never in my life have I downplayed the search for musical excellence. It is horribly, unfairly true that Britney Spears will outsell Rush every single time, but hey, that's life. Our response should be to take our art to its uttermost limit and enjoy the glow of knowing that we're relentlessly working to be as good as we can possibly be.

(And who knows, maybe we'll get picked up to be in Britney's band):bonk:.

But seriously, Gapster, I love to hear people play fast. Hell, I love to play fast. It's just that it's not the primary focus of my relationship with my guitar anymore.

All the best,
gpb

E Daws
05-19-2005, 08:48 PM
I just wanted to say that I am impressed by the mature debate going on in this topic, it gives me faith that boards like this are still helpful.
I would buy that program, but I don't have a PC. I am going to go buy one of those books. Probably Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician. The play slow things makes sense. After all when I learn stuff I play it slowly.

MidnightThunder
05-20-2005, 12:44 AM
Originally posted by heggazz
You can quote several people in the one post and answer them respectively. Also if you make a mistake you may edit or delete your post by clicking on the edit button at the bottom of your post next to the quote button.
The moderators for Musician Talk's names are at the top of the MT page above all the other online users names and they are in bold.
No one wants you to stop posting altogether, just the excessive posting. When you can cram all you want to say in one post it is better than just posting a lot of times one after the other.


Thank you for the information, I appreciate it. I do notice that many people double and triple and even more post in a thread. I don't get why my post are different than theirs other than I did a few (yes splash, 7) in a row.

My question however was is this against the rules or does it just bug a couple people? As I said I'm still learning how to do all this stuff and I treat everybody with respect and try very hard not to critisize anybody because it discourages them. Splash mentioned this mistake in another one of my threads as well, and I just feel that unnessecary but hey, to each their own. I'm just not one to ridicule people for something as minor as the number of posts on a board. That is why we have a scroll button if we don't want to read them. Right? So, is there a rule against it or no? Or where can I read if there is or not on my own?

I will try in the future not to do that so much. When I posted the 7 posts in a row that Splash keeps referring to, I thought that each one would post directly under the person I was commenting to. It wasn't until here brought it up did I realize they were all in a row at the end.

I thought I read somewhere in the rules when I first joined about long and running on posts. That tells me it is better to separate them. Again, I am not offended easily so if you disagree please let me know.

Also, is there a rule on excessive posting? I thought that is what this board was here for?

Lastly, I don't know how to quote several in one post and haven't yet seen one done that way. Again, any help is appreciated.

MidnightThunder
05-20-2005, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by E Daws

I would buy that program, but I don't have a PC. I am going to go buy one of those books. Probably Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician. The play slow things makes sense. After all when I learn stuff I play it slowly. [/B]

I just wanted to let you know E Daws, that you may not need to buy that program with the knowledge that I have seen here. There are a few people here that are VERY VERY intelligent about these types of exercises, so you can try what I did and just ask for a more in depth explaination if you need to. GPB is a good one to ask, he knows his stuff. (I hope it's ok I mentioned your name)I may even be able to help you with some of it since I do have the actual program. I would be happy to help. Feel free if you like to know anything in it.

I am happy too with the amount of help I get from this board. These people here are wonderful! Always willing to help even the dumbest of questions, which I post alot of. I am thankful for being here. I checked out a couple other boards and it was like people got their kicks from making others feel bad...I'm not interested in that. There aren't many of those here from what I see so far. The debate here was very mature for the most part, I enjoyed it too! :)

Balsamo
05-20-2005, 03:03 AM
Originally posted by gapster
alright gpb ...

you know sometimes i am just soooo sick of the whole world telling me shredding sucks ,speed sucks ..somebody is always faster ...etc

it is really unfair now you see the world have this concept "you don't need to be good to make good music " ..people who have talents and practise hell alot got rejected by the world..where as cheap ass pop/punk , hip hop..the talking music gets all the money

No-one has been saying you don't need to have skills, just that there's more to it then JUST speed.

But I have to disagree with you, though I'm not a pop/punk fan.
A simple song can sound way better than a 300bpm. four-hour shredding session IF the writer of it has the skills to make it good, for that you need skills. Guitar, bass, keyboard etc. etc. Isn't mastered just with the techniques, you got to understand the consepts and logics of each note you play, whether there's two or two thousand in the song.

Did I get a bit carried away again?:o

MidnightThunder
05-20-2005, 05:58 AM
Originally posted by gpb0216
Gapster,

I don't think you could have misunderstood me more totally.

At no time have I ever said that "shredding sucks" or that "speed sucks". I have been playing the guitar for more than 40 years and I know how much work it takes to play truly fast. You have my utmost respect and admiration, and I really mean that.

But seriously, Gapster, I love to hear people play fast. Hell, I love to play fast. It's just that it's not the primary focus of my relationship with my guitar anymore.

All the best,
gpb

GPB, I wanted to add something to this...hope I'm not out of line here. But from what I see....I have made it no secret that I think you have phenominal musical talent from just hearing what you have to say about the few different aspects of it so far. So, I wanted to ask you about your own playing fast too.....what style of music do you like to play the most? I am basically asking where does your musical passion lye, as far as the style of music go? Did you have a time when playing fast was very important to you? Just curious.

I understand about playing fast not being your focus. The good part is you could do it and get better at it if you chose too by doing just what you taught me. I was just wondering if that maybe why playing fast isn't all that important to you right now?

If you haven't noticed I like to see deep into a passionate musician...I am just curious. Feel free to email me if you would like better to discuss it that way.

Shawna :)

Ugliest Weenie
05-20-2005, 07:48 AM
I know that this might seem silly, but how do I know at how many bpm im playing at? :bonk:

..and I┤ve decided to start doing this 21 day thingy with slow and small speed bursts starting today!:D

gpb0216
05-20-2005, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by Ugliest Weenie
I know that this might seem silly, but how do I know at how many bpm im playing at? :bonk:

Ask for a Metronome at your local music store. They'll set you right up.

Ugliest Weenie
05-20-2005, 11:35 AM
I actually got one today, but it doesnt say how many bmp im playing... it just shows q-notes, eight-notes etc... is tempo the bpm?

Corwinoid
05-20-2005, 11:53 AM
Tempo is the beats per minute, Q = 60 is 1 beat, or one pulse (depending on meter) per second.

Now, if you're playing 16th notes at that tempo, you're playing 4nps.

If you're playing 8th note triplets at 120 you're playing 6nps, etc.

16nps is 16th notes at 240bpm, to give you an idea how fast that is. That's your metronome set to 240, and 4 notes every time it clicks.

sixteen times
05-22-2005, 12:10 PM
Thought I better not let this thread die, so are there any other good books that you can recommend to help me improve technique?

:cheers:

DoGaLoG
05-22-2005, 04:22 PM
Also, is there a rule on excessive posting? I thought that is what this board was here for?

Tis then technically spam .... which is more than likley against a rule (go have a read through or something) And the board definatly doesnt exist to be spammed lol

ILoveHarmonics
05-23-2005, 11:40 AM
Corwinoid said: Say your arch to clear a string with your ring finger lifts it about a half inch over the action of the string you're clearing... doesn't seem like a lot. But think about this, if you can focus on reducing the amount of motion you make normally, and bring that down to about a quarter of an inch, you've MORE than halved the amount of effort that motion takes.

About the most usefull tip I came across yet. :cheers:
I knew that allready but never focussed on it enough so thanks for pointing out the importance of it. I found it helpfull to focus on it when I'm losing discipline and start noodling around (I shouldn't do that but sometimes I do that anyway). I used to have bad days while playing. Just like the strings were twice as thick. Now I realise it was due to the fact that when I'm concentrated I keep my fingers lower wich gives me more stamina and higher speed. A lot of work to do for me to refine the things I thought I played right. Not a bad thing because I was looking for new ways to improve my overal playing.

MidnightThunder
05-26-2005, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by DoGaLoG
Tis then technically spam .... which is more than likley against a rule (go have a read through or something) And the board definatly doesnt exist to be spammed lol


These posts are far from spam, but thank you for your input. I'm asking questions and getting answers, that's what I'm suppose to be doing. I don't spam. But then again, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


Cor....the finger arching is definitley something I need to work on as well. Just to back your theory, the program I have focus on the point you made about reducing the amount of motions you have to make to increase speed as well.

sixteen times
05-26-2005, 02:05 PM
Finger arching is a problem for me too, and isn't something that can be cured over-night, or so it would seem. :(

:cheers:

Ugliest Weenie
05-26-2005, 02:12 PM
finger whatta?
whats finger arching?

btw... my last exam in school is tomorrow, and after that i┤ll begin with my guitar schedule that lasts forever!!! (well almost):p:
Im really psyched about it, but a lil bit worried that im not going to be dedicated enough...:(
:no: wthat the hell am i saying??!!?? ofcourse ill dedicate 500%!!!!

Bubonic Chronic
05-26-2005, 02:34 PM
I'm a fan of pushing yourself in new directions, playing maybe triplets all the way up a scale, then doing a strange arpeggio at the end. Here's an example of mine:

http://sinktothetop.org/Lessons/speed_files/image008.gif

Here I reverse the direction of the triplets on every string and throw an odd deviation from the pattern in at the end. Conclusion? Difficult pattern + break from the pattern means you're forcing your brain to not only control the motor movement of your hands, but to think at that speed as well. You're learning to establish a pattern and, more importantly, break from it in a flawless stream of notes.

Corwinoid
05-26-2005, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by sixteen times
Finger arching is a problem for me too, and isn't something that can be cured over-night, or so it would seem. :(

:cheers:

Scale practice, chromatic runs, and petrucci's horrible right hand warm up excersizes off rock discipline, work wonders for focusing on left hand movements.

Like we've been saying, just slow everything down and focus on what you're doing.

sixteen times
05-28-2005, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by Corwinoid
and petrucci's horrible right hand warm up excersizes off rock discipline

Care to explain?



Originally posted by Corwinoid
Like we've been saying, just slow everything down and focus on what you're doing.

You got it! :D



:cheers:

Corwinoid
05-28-2005, 07:03 AM
^ He's just got these annoying right hand warm up excersizes with alternate picking and string skipping... I feel violated every time I play them for not economy picking :eek:

sixteen times
06-01-2005, 04:49 AM
Thanks.

*heads off to bedroom, plugs in guitar, turns metronome on 60bpm, plays*

*tick....tick...tick...tick..*

:(

Ugliest Weenie
06-01-2005, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Corwinoid
Tempo is the beats per minute, Q = 60 is 1 beat, or one pulse (depending on meter) per second.

Now, if you're playing 16th notes at that tempo, you're playing 4nps.

If you're playing 8th note triplets at 120 you're playing 6nps, etc.

16nps is 16th notes at 240bpm, to give you an idea how fast that is. That's your metronome set to 240, and 4 notes every time it clicks.

so is there a formula how to count the nps? so that i can select any tempo and an type of note and know how many nps im playing at myself..

Corwinoid
06-01-2005, 07:49 AM
Tempo/60 * Notes/beat

ie. 16th notes would be 4 notes per beat, at 120 = 120/60 (2) * 4 = 8nps

ILoveHarmonics
06-02-2005, 05:07 AM
I hope this is not considered spam, but I just want to point something out that truly amazes me. Muscle memory seems to be a really implicit kind of memory because it seems to be able to play things correct after practise without being consiouse of it. The thing that amazes me is the fact that the muscle memory can adjust to different situations in a few seconds. When I play the electric for a while and learn some new things on it and than switch to the acoustic it's often easy to apply what you learn on strings close together on those strings of the acoustic without much thinking. Not much information in this post, but it just interests me that muscle memory seems to have a mind of it's own sometimes :). Maybe it recognizes the broader neck. Same thing applies for playing sitting and standing up. Well I'm glad it does. :cool:

gpb0216
06-02-2005, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by ILoveHarmonics
Muscle memory seems to be a really implicit kind of memory because it seems to be able to play things correct after practise without being consiouse of it. The thing that amazes me is the fact that the muscle memory can adjust to different situations in a few seconds.

...it just interests me that muscle memory seems to have a mind of it's own sometimes :). Maybe it recognizes the broader neck. Same thing applies for playing sitting and standing up. Well I'm glad it does. :cool:

The phenomenon called "muscle memory" in this post is, in fact, the supremely amazing work of the subconscious mind. This most miraculous of all miracles remembers everthing you've ever experienced through any of your senses. Nothing escapes its attention. It causes you to recreate what you practice correctly with absolute accuracy. It also causes you to recreate what you practice incorrectly with absolute accuracy. This explains why we must excercise great care and patience when teaching ourselves to play with speed on the guitar (or any other aspect of playing, for that matter).

Train your subconscious carefully and well and watch in awe what it will do through your "muscle memory".

ILoveHarmonics
06-02-2005, 12:51 PM
I'm a psychology student so that's a bit why I like to think about it more deeply. :) I was wondering how slow it is nescecary to practice btw. If I can play something kinda fast soon without any mistakes (a 3 string arpeggio with pull-off in this case :)) that should be alright to practise I think. It's just about not falling in the trap and thinking "when I play this fast I play that one note wrong so let's play it a 100 times more this way untill it doesn't go wrong anymore." That would really screw up the muscle memory although it seems like common sense at first.

gpb0216
06-02-2005, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by ILoveHarmonics
I'm a psychology student so that's a bit why I like to think about it more deeply. I was wondering how slow it is nescecary to practice btw.

This thread, "Speed Building", has discussed this very issue quite deeply and thoroughly since May 14. If you fast-forwarded to the end to enter your post, I suggest you go back to the top and read each post very carefully. There are some genuine nuggets waiting for you in this thread.

If I can play something kinda fast soon without any mistakes (a 3 string arpeggio with pull-off in this case) that should be alright to practise I think. It's just about not falling in the trap and thinking "when I play this fast I play that one note wrong so let's play it a 100 times more this way untill it doesn't go wrong anymore." That would really screw up the muscle memory although it seems like common sense at first.

This, in my opinion, is the #1 mistake players of any instrument make. Mastery requires an almost superhuman level of patience, and patience is the very last thing we want to invest in our practice time. I am a firm believer in practicing only as fast as I can play perfectly and no faster, period. Perfect practice produces perfect speed.

MidnightThunder
06-02-2005, 08:12 PM
Just a quick update on how I'm doing with the speed builder program.....


So far, I am learning alot from that and here. Also, I am in complete agreement with gpb on the practicing only at the speed you can play perfectly. My exercises in the program focus on that but the take you a few bpm (beats per minute) over what you can do with a speed graph built for you and your playing ability. You raise it as you improve. The part that takes you over what you can do is very short and then start back down the scale to the beats you can play perfectly. Believe it or not, even slower. It is really helping me in many areas of playing other than speed.

Hope everyone else is doing well too. :)

gpb0216
06-02-2005, 08:18 PM
Thank you so much for the update, MidnightThunder. Has anybody else out there been working with M.T.'s program, the 21-day process or something like them? If so, please let us know how your playing speed is changing.

ILoveHarmonics
06-03-2005, 03:18 AM
I read the previous posts in here :) and this thread is really interesting. But I think the amount of slowness you need depends on how hard the thing you practise really is. If you can play it perfectly at 40 bpm but also on 60 bpm without making any mistakes it's still ok I think and 60 bpm will allowe more repetitions in the given practise time. But you need to be 100% sure you actually DO play it perfectly of course. Another question is: When do you know you can speed up the playing? Sometimes 21 days might be to long but sometimes 21 days might be not enough. I already lost faith in the increasing 10 bpm thing because 10 bpm can be a hell of an increase when you reach the 16th or 32th notes in a music part. Going from 120 bpm to 130 bpm with quarter notes seems ok, but going from 30 bpm to 40 with 16th notes seems like a bad thing to me. Oh and BTW I am doing the 21 days thing although I forgot to count the days. I can't tell if I increased on speed yet of course, but everyday I feel more confident in playing it wich is enough motivation for me to keep playing it slow for the moment.

F-3
06-03-2005, 06:19 AM
I'll start from today too, my goal is to practice at 60 bpm until the end of this month. I have guitar lessons where I have to play faster, but eh, I'll just count those as long "speed bursts" ^^
I hope they won't screw the whole system over ... unlikely I think.

sixteen times
06-03-2005, 06:34 AM
Starting from today, I will practise all my "shred licks" at 40bpm for half an hour each, daily. I'll carry this on until the end of the month.


Best of luck to everybody else taking part in this.

gpb0216
06-03-2005, 09:22 AM
I've really enjoyed this thread.

I find it fascinating how many folks focus on a particular "comfortable" metronome mark or nps rate and pledge to use some process to increase that mark or rate until they reach some pre-determined point of "speed".

Well, that's a lot better than "pushing the speed envelope" for 100 repetitions but ignoring the little 8th note arpeggio you trip over every single time. "I'll fix it one of these times", we all say, and push on with repetition #101.

But I think many of you are still missing a critical point: Speed is a shy and beautiful woman and you need to woo her.

Make no mistake...
Speed is beautiful.
Speed is expressive.
Speed is important.
And, from reading some of the posts in this thread, I gather that Speed is the "gold standard" by which some of you measure yourselves as guitarists.

But please, take the time to read Kenny Werner's book, Effortless Mastery - Liberating the Master Musician Within. And then, please stop pushing.

You'll enjoy your practicing so much more! You'll learn to savor the sensations of playing slowly, smoothly and flawlessly.

And when you're not expecting her at all, shy, beautiful speed will creep up behind you, cover your eyes and kiss you on your ear.

That's all this 52-year old geezer has to say about speed. Please let us all know how your quest goes.

F-3
06-03-2005, 11:53 AM
^
nicely written :cheers: I enjoyed that
I think I am not expecting too much of a speed gain, I am not a shredder anyways.
I am going for the flawless aspect, I find my playing way too sloppy and I hope this will help me to get "cleaner". But if it gives me more speed ... I wouldn't mind ;)

SnowballofDoom
06-03-2005, 01:48 PM
I've never posted in this thread, but I have enjoyed reading it since it started.

I will start the 21 day program today, playing 16th note triplets at 70bpm for 60 minutes each day. My goal is to be able to pick 16th note triplets at 120bpm, whether that will happen in the next 21 days or not, I'm going to use the 21 day method until I reach my goal.


Thanks to everyone who's posted in this thread, it's given me a new way to practice (a much less stressful one).


See you in 21 days :cheers:

sixteen times
06-03-2005, 04:48 PM
Nicely written, gpb0216. I am indeed enjoying the "sensations" f playing slowly, and also enjoying the nice suprise of speed at the end of it all.

Good luck SnowballofDoom, let us know how it all goes.

:cheers:

slash_pwns
06-03-2005, 06:01 PM
I tried 16th tripelets at 100 bpm (slow) and got to 16 tripelets at 140 bpm... This is working :p

12string
06-03-2005, 06:22 PM
posted by Dorkusmalorkus

What you practice in this way for 21 days is entirely your call. But whatever you practice like this will gleam and shimmer like a precious gem at the end of that 21 days. Try it and see. If you do you'll probably never go back to how you're practicing now. I sure didn't.


WOW, I will try it and let you know how I get on.

gpb0216
06-03-2005, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by 12string
posted by Dorkusmalorkus

What you practice in this way for 21 days is entirely your call. But whatever you practice like this will gleam and shimmer like a precious gem at the end of that 21 days. Try it and see. If you do you'll probably never go back to how you're practicing now. I sure didn't.

With all due respect to Dorkusmalorkus, I posted this on 05/14.

WOW, I will try it and let you know how I get on.

Please do.

MidnightThunder
06-03-2005, 10:02 PM
gpb....your welcome. I wanted to add that I am learning far more than speed with the program. I am learning the fretboard overall better and able to hit the notes all up and down it more accurately. I am also able to play with more confidence. I am building tremendously needed strength and stamina in both playing hands, so even if speed isn't your goal (which a wise guitarists recently taught me) it is helpful in many other areas.

I wanted to let you know that I am very pleasantly surprised with how other areas of my playing are falling right into place for me so quickly doing this as well.

You explaination of speed was of course breathtaking...very well written and great advice! :)

Harmonics...I am keeping track of the days. I am not sure how long it will take me to reach my goals but the 21 day ( my program is 30) is a basic general estimation I believe. It depends on how fast you want to play and what you want out of it.I will be using it for much more than speed, so it may take me a week or so longer. I practice at least 20 mins to 2 hours a day on just this program and then play with my other aspects of playing.

As far as how do you know when to raise your speed...I raise mine 10 bpm and continue doing so until I can't play the highest speed perfectly. My program builds a speed profile for you so it basically does all that for you. It measures in 7 areas (different types of playing). I have found some very difficult where I am still at a very slow speed and some that I can do the max speed. I am trying to take my weak areas and strengthen them. I hope this helps.

VomitalXX
06-04-2005, 02:27 PM
I have a simple question. You say to put it on a speed that you will NEVER mess up and can play flawlessly. Well after becoming extremely acquainted with the thing you're playing, say your slowest speed is 150 BPM. Would you use that as the slow speed or would you keep practicing retardedly slow?

gpb0216
06-04-2005, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by VomitalXX
I have a simple question. You say to put it on a speed that you will NEVER mess up and can play flawlessly. Well after becoming extremely acquainted with the thing you're playing, say your slowest speed is 150 BPM. Would you use that as the slow speed or would you keep practicing retardedly slow?

This is an excellent question. Here's my answer:

The speed at which you can nail the passage every single time, perfectly and smoothly, without stress and without strain, is your practice speed.

If that speed is 150 bpm, and if you discipline yourself to practice there diligently, you'll soon find yourself playing even faster, without strain, without stress, almost without thinking about it.

The key concepts are:
Perfectly
Smoothly
Stressless
Strain-less
Target-less
Diligently

Perfect Practice = Perfect Speed
Perfect Speed = Perfect Practice

pavan
06-05-2005, 05:23 AM
thanks gpb. i learnt something today. it makes sense.

pavan
06-05-2005, 05:27 AM
i will try playing the hungarian scale in D at ..... 80 bpm or 100 bpm.

sixteen times
06-05-2005, 07:17 AM
This thread is excellent, for one it has helped me, and I'm sure many others, so I'd like to thank all people who contributed to it.

:cheers:

heggazz
06-05-2005, 07:37 AM
I know I will probably get burned for this and many people won't know what I'm talking about, but this same rule is applied in skating. You practise basic tricks such as kickflips and ollies until you are so good at them, that you can just pop one whenever you want and they look perfect and effortless. Then the harder tricks just come in a steady flow and you look perfect, you perform effortlessly, and you can keep elevating yourself to new levels. It is the same thing with this guitar lesson, get the fundamentals right and your laughing.

ILoveHarmonics
06-06-2005, 09:58 AM
You won't get burned for that imo.

I thinkt it actually applies to a lot more things in life you can learn, especially the motorical ones. I remember how I had to "draw" characters when I was about 6 years old and had to do it really slowly for a boring long period. Guess what... I can write pretty fast now :p:. Ok a bit of a stupid example but that's why it makes sense to me what gpb told.

Now another thing I wanted to put in. It's just theoretical but behaviorists say we only learn when we get rewarded or punished. When practising it makes sense to see playing someting right as a reward and something wrong as a punishment. For me that's a reason to think about what i'm doing and put some emotion in playing something right or wrong. I'm not saying you should punish yourself when you make a mistake, but I think being really aware of it and feeling a bit bad about it together with feeling a bit good about every well played note speeds up the process of mastery of wathever you're practising. Playing slowly should help with this aswell because I feel really bad when I make a mistake when I play slow so the negative reinforcement is strong. One could say that playing fast gives more of a positive re´nforcement when you play the whole part fast, but you will be happy because you played 90% right on that speed without feeling bad about each individual wrong note and even if you are you're brains might interpret that you played another note wrong wich should only increase insecurity about the notes you played right.

This is just my view on it together with some of the facts stated by gpb. I hope some people disagree or add some more thoughts.

sixteen times
06-07-2005, 11:42 AM
To summarise:

-Keep as relaxed and "loose" as possible

-Play at a speed that you can play the song PERFECTLY

-Keep your fingers as close to the fretboard as possible

-Concentrate on what your playing. Make sure you hit each note perfect, no fluff notes, keep it all clean, don't look away- look at your hands, make sure they are playing the right thing, and at the right time.

-Play things slow... real slow... as slow as your metronome can go (usually 40bpm). This takes determination- be strong, you can do it :p:.

-Do this for a reasonable amount of time. Don't just do a quick 10 minute session here and there, set aside a time, go play for an hour straight, or even better two, or even better still three, four five.

Just my two cents...

Good luck and remeber- if it ain't clean, it's worthless. :p:

:cheers:

de7ilznite
07-15-2005, 06:21 AM
Best thread I've seen in awhile. I enjoyed reading this.

Matt_Malmsteen
07-15-2005, 08:15 AM
This thread owns..I am so gonna start doing this stuff....

One Question though: will this stuff help with swep picking and economy picking..I figure u have to do them at a certain sped otherwise they don't work..

Anywho thanx for the great advice..I'll tell u how I get on!

Freepower
07-15-2005, 08:21 AM
^ yes, especially sweep picking! And doing them slowly is fine, why wouldnt they work at slow speeds? Just do the correct motion and dont fall into seperate pick motions.

Corwinoid
07-15-2005, 08:24 AM
Yes, because what you're focusing on is muscle control. The ability to precisely coordinate your actions to perform them more accurately, and the ability to coordinate your actions between two hands.

The relationship between how long it takes the pick to move from string to string should remain constant regardless of tempo (at least in theory... in reality it's the relationship between strikes, and the motion does feel _slightly_ different).

In practice this means that practicing it slower teaches your hands to coordinate that timing together, and to learn the feel based on what each other hand is doing--you know when your right hand prepares the strike that your left hand changes fingers in the sweep.

It also gives you time to focus on the precision of the action that you're developing in coordination.

Doing it at a faster tempo is... just doing it faster.

Freepower
07-15-2005, 08:42 AM
Yeh, agreed on that. And seriously, if you start to feel progress, dont just thump up the metronome and try and shred it out immediatly, just let them stay as accurate and clean as possible.


Trust me, i know the temptation, and have given in many times. But its seriously better just to keep em slow.

Shreddy
07-15-2005, 11:11 AM
I have an idea about building speed and accuracy, or an idea to practice with kind of. Okay basically you alertnate every day between increasing speed and practicing at that speed. For example, today I bring my speed up to 90bpm, and then tommarrow I practice only at 90bpm and get better at it, and then the next day I increase 2bpm and then the day after I practice only at 92bpm. Is this a good idea?

dsmithtampa
07-15-2005, 12:36 PM
It is great hearing guys and gals talk about the benefits of speed and accuracy while playing. I definitely think GPB has made some good points, as did a few other people. Of course, the 21 day is subjective, someone with exceptional talent may master this sooner and if forced to continue for 21 days, they could become lacadaiscal. This is great information for young guitarists, keep those posts coming.

Corwinoid
07-15-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Shreddy
I have an idea about building speed and accuracy, or an idea to practice with kind of. Okay basically you alertnate every day between increasing speed and practicing at that speed. For example, today I bring my speed up to 90bpm, and then tommarrow I practice only at 90bpm and get better at it, and then the next day I increase 2bpm and then the day after I practice only at 92bpm. Is this a good idea?

Yeah, that works... my metronome's been set under 60 for the last two weeks.

renato
07-15-2005, 07:16 PM
No, i think that sounds like a frankly bad idea. i prefer to look at the metronome as not providing the timing but the 'beat', so increasing upwards inch by inch is not the point. The aim is not only to play fast but to keep the 'swing'

:stickpoke

/\/\()()
07-15-2005, 09:18 PM
this thread is awesome....GPB has been the biggest help/...thanks

PurpleMonkeyDW
07-16-2005, 03:17 PM
OK I'm gonna try this 21 day thing. I'm currently in the process of RE-learning the minor pentatonic scale (I did it so half assed the first time it's completely of no use to me) to co-inside with learning off the entire fretboard. I haven't worked out how long I can spend on it each day yet but it'll be an hour or more. I'll try to do as Cas and GPB said; playing 20bpm slower than I play normally (so if my speed increases every session I do this then my '20bpm slower speed' should be incresing as I go along. Correct me anyone if I have this wrong before I start) with intervals of speed bursts in between.

This thread has generated a lot of interest. Perhaps this should be stickied; and seeing as thare are a lot of other people willing to try this out it would be great if we could have a thread for peoples results or updates on progress (Kind of like the MOD challenge:D).

Shreddy
07-16-2005, 03:35 PM
^Haha, just like the MOD challange...
For me, I only do 10bpm less than I can, but it seems to work fine if I only increase my speed every other day or every other other day.

XYZero
07-17-2005, 08:15 PM
Would this work with a scale in all the keys or would I have to focus on one key at a time?

casualty01
07-26-2005, 12:52 AM
^^ yes, it'll work anywhere, any key.

Cas-:peace:

Darklights
07-26-2005, 06:37 AM
Hmmm, I pulled a search for one gem of information I was seeking... and got two for the price of one. After reading these entire posts, I have to say that it is genuinely great to find a thread minus the usual amount of childish thrashing. Very informative and helpfull....Thank you ladies and gentlemen.