diminished scales?


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redwing_suck
11-18-2002, 05:59 PM
is there such a thing as a diminished scale, like the same thing as a major or minor or petatonic scale?

my friend said this riff is based off of a so-called diminished scale...

|-------5-8p5-------------8-11p8----------------11-14p11
|-----7-------7--------10--------10----------13---------
|-5-8-----------8-8-11--------------11-11-14------------
|-------------------------------------------------------
|-------------------------------------------------------
|-------------------------------------------------------

Bubonic Chronic
11-18-2002, 06:51 PM
It depends on who you ask. The main scale forms are Major, minor, chromatic, whole tone, harmonic and melodic minor. You can fit any riff or chord on a Western 12-tone instrument into one of those six scales.

These aren't the only scales that exist and you can even invent your own, but the "diminished" scale is not really a widely accepted one. I imagine you would find different scales in different books with that name.

Generally, though, diminished chords (if several are strung together) fit into harmonic minor or chromatic (all twelve notes) scales.

casualty01
11-18-2002, 07:52 PM
yes ... their are diminished scales, there are 2 types..

whole-1/2 diminished
which is just a series of whole and half steps

w-1/2-w-1/2-w-1/2-w-1/2
or
1-2-b3-4-b5-b6-6-7

-------------------------------------2-3-5---
------------------------------2-4-5----------
-----------------------2-3-5-----------------
----------------2-4-5------------------------
---------3-4-6-------------------------------
--3-5-6--------------------------------------

and the 1/2-whole diminished
which is a series of 1/2 and whole steps

1/2-W-1/2-W-1/2-W-1/2-W
or
1-b2-#2-3-#4-5-6-b7

-------------------------------------1-3-6---
------------------------------2-3-5----------
-----------------------1-3-4-----------------
----------------2-3-5------------------------
---------2-4-5-------------------------------
--3-4-6--------------------------------------

both are symetrical.... and both only have 3 different keys because of its symetrical makeup

the first one is used over Dim 7th chords (o7)
the second one is used over dominant7 b9 chords (7 b9)

theres alot of underlying and criss crossing theory to these scales because dominant b9 chords are = to dim7th chords and vice versa....

and if you'll kindly notice, the W-1/2 dim scale is identical to the 1/2-W dim scale that is a whole step up from the root. so G W-1/2 dim is the same scale as A 1/2-W dim.

also , being that the underlying harmony of the dim scale is a dim chord theres only 3 dim scales .... because 1 dim scale is the same exact scale as 4 others ... G dim, Bb dim, Db dim and E dim are all the same exact scale ....

just like 1 dim chord is the same as 3 other diminished chords, because they're symetrical.

theres a ****load more i could go on about to further add to the amibiguity of diminshed vs. dominant 7b9 chords but i'll stop there

Cas-:peace:

and they are very much used in jazz.... widely used.

joebeta
11-18-2002, 08:56 PM
Does that mean that you can group the Diminished scales into 3 categories like so:

G 1/2-W and it's modes
G W-1/2 and it's modes
G# 1/2-W and it's modes <- These omit G

And every diminished scale would fit into one of those? Are these scales used over metal... cause I think I heard that somewhere. Maybe in the metal articles. Yea. In one of the metal articles it said diminished (I think) scales can be used to play over metal.

Thanx
Joebeta

redwing_suck
11-18-2002, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by casualty01
theres a ****load more i could go on about to further add to the amibiguity of diminshed vs. dominant 7b9 chords but i'll stop there


.... wow..... there's more? please, stop there, for the sake of my sanity.

redwing_suck
11-18-2002, 10:00 PM
ok check my work here.....

i am working out the scales here, and for once i am understanding your language, cas.

so the c-dim scale (for example) in the whole-half-whole-half-etc, scale is the same as the a-dim in the same scale, correct? that's what i see..... so every scale on the whole-half-whole-half-etc scale is the same as another scale? that's also what i see.......... just a simple clarification would be nice.

djmorris
11-28-2002, 12:24 AM
I'm not gonna rain on cas's parade, cause it sounds like he's got it in the bag.

I was just gonna say a good example of the diminished scale (C dim to be precise) can be found in "Just" by radiohead.

The lead riff in the intro is the C whole-half scale played over a C-D#-D-F chord progression.

So it is used somewhere!

Attack No.1
12-01-2002, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by casualty01
yes ... their are diminished scales, there are 2 types..

whole-1/2 diminished
which is just a series of whole and half steps

w-1/2-w-1/2-w-1/2-w-1/2
or
1-2-b3-4-b5-b6-6-7

-------------------------------------2-3-5---
------------------------------2-4-5----------
-----------------------2-3-5-----------------
----------------2-4-5------------------------
---------3-4-6-------------------------------
--3-5-6--------------------------------------

and the 1/2-whole diminished
which is a series of 1/2 and whole steps

1/2-W-1/2-W-1/2-W-1/2-W
or
1-b2-#2-3-#4-5-6-b7

-------------------------------------1-3-6---
------------------------------2-3-5----------
-----------------------1-3-4-----------------
----------------2-3-5------------------------
---------2-4-5-------------------------------
--3-4-6--------------------------------------

both are symetrical.... and both only have 3 different keys because of its symetrical makeup

the first one is used over Dim 7th chords (o7)
the second one is used over dominant7 b9 chords (7 b9)

theres alot of underlying and criss crossing theory to these scales because dominant b9 chords are = to dim7th chords and vice versa....

and if you'll kindly notice, the W-1/2 dim scale is identical to the 1/2-W dim scale that is a whole step up from the root. so G W-1/2 dim is the same scale as A 1/2-W dim.

also , being that the underlying harmony of the dim scale is a dim chord theres only 3 dim scales .... because 1 dim scale is the same exact scale as 4 others ... G dim, Bb dim, Db dim and E dim are all the same exact scale ....

just like 1 dim chord is the same as 3 other diminished chords, because they're symetrical.

theres a ****load more i could go on about to further add to the amibiguity of diminshed vs. dominant 7b9 chords but i'll stop there

Cas-:peace:

and they are very much used in jazz.... widely used.

Good answer, but dont forget this pattern for diminishes 7 ths

F sharp being the root:

----------------------------------------------5---8----
-----------------------------------------7-------------
-------------------------------5---8------------------
----------------------4--7----------------------------
------------3---6-------------------------------------
--2---5-----------------------------------------------

casualty01
12-01-2002, 10:36 AM
Originally posted by Attack No.1


Good answer, but dont forget this pattern for diminishes 7 ths

F sharp being the root:

----------------------------------------------5---8----
-----------------------------------------7-------------
-------------------------------5---8------------------
----------------------4--7----------------------------
------------3---6-------------------------------------
--2---5-----------------------------------------------

umm ... thank you, but he did asked for diminished scales, so thats what i gave him ... thats a diminished arpeggio not a scale ...=/ ...

that very arpeggio is found IN the whole-1/2 diminished scale .....
hence why the whole-1/2 diminshed scale is used over dim 7th chords...

Cas-:peace:

casualty01
01-13-2003, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by redwing_suck
ok check my work here.....

i am working out the scales here, and for once i am understanding your language, cas.

so the c-dim scale (for example) in the whole-half-whole-half-etc, scale is the same as the a-dim in the same scale, correct? that's what i see..... so every scale on the whole-half-whole-half-etc scale is the same as another scale? that's also what i see.......... just a simple clarification would be nice.

yes you're correct......... sorry, i forgot bout this thread and came across it while i was cleaning the forum

:cheers:

Cas-:peace: