12 Bar Blues


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Philosopher1989
06-29-2005, 09:49 PM
Okay, I'm wondering about this.

I've learned up on sum lessons on blues and what I think about the 12 Bar blues is that is a chord progression like I+V+IV and if it was in key of Cmaj, the chords played would be Cmaj7 + Gmaj7 + Fmaj7.

And Each chord is played 4 times. Am I right?

And is there a certain special rythem you would play when using the 12 bar blues?

The_Strat_Man
06-29-2005, 09:56 PM
12 Bar Blues Forms

C7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / |
F7 / / / | F7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / |
G7 / / / | F7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / |

C7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / |
F7 / / / | F7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / |
G7 / / / | F7 / / / | C7 / / / | G7 / / / |

C7 / / / | F7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / |
F7 / / / | F7 / / / | C7 / / / | C7 / / / |
G7 / / / | F7 / / / | C7 / / / | G7 / / / |

Zamboni
06-29-2005, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by Philosopher1989
And is there a certain special rythem you would play when using the 12 bar blues?
I guess you could call it a swing rhythm.

wanna_lick_me?
06-29-2005, 10:02 PM
no special rythm....well, sorta....i mean wtf dude its the blues. Justlisten to some Howling Wolf and Muddy Waters and you'll know how to play

The_Strat_Man
06-29-2005, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by wanna_lick_me?
no special rythm....well, sorta....i mean wtf dude its the blues. Justlisten to some Howling Wolf and Muddy Waters and you'll know how to play

Whaddya' mean no special rhythm? The last two posts basically told him about the rhythms for blues.

guitarman3000GM
06-29-2005, 10:27 PM
Just get a play along at your local guitar store. It helps a lot.

Philosopher1989
06-29-2005, 10:41 PM
How would a swing rythem go? Normally when I play chords and try and sound bluesy, i do it using triplets, mute some chords, and use an extensive combonation of up/down strokes. Would you call that somewhat of a swing rythem?

rageandlove04
06-29-2005, 10:47 PM
Download some jam tracks here (http://www.guitarbt.com). Blues is mostly about feel, you'll get it.

jmc89
06-29-2005, 11:26 PM
I-IV-V 12 BAR BLUES

Key Of C (I-IV-V = C F G)

C.....F7.....C....C7
F.....F7.....C....C7
G7....F7.... C....G7



Pattern For 12 Bar Blues

I IV7 I I7
IV IV7 I I7
V7 IV7 I V7

Phobophobia
06-30-2005, 12:17 AM
The 12 bar blues pattern


I I I I (You can also add sevenths to
IV IV I I spice it up a bit)
V IV I I

That's basic blues, play that progession over and over again, and take turns with lead. Just use the blues scale that corresponds to that key (Even though it's not limited to just a blues scale).
________________________________________________

/ 3 \
swing rythem: e e = q e

Two eight notes together are played like a quarter and eigth note triplet. The easiest way to get that in your head is by saying shuf - ful, Shuf - ful, Shuf - ful, etc...

:headbang:
Alex

redwing_suck
06-30-2005, 02:25 AM
^Actually, all the chords in standard 12-bar blues are dominant. All of them, all the time.

And Philsopher1989 (threadstarter), your Cmaj7 Fmaj7 Gmaj7 approach to the I IV V would mean you're going off of strict modal chord rules... which then means a true I IV V would be Cmaj7 Fmaj7#11 G7. Just thought I'd chime in there. Blues (major key) is I7 IV7 V7. All dominant.

The typical rhythm is the shuffle. However, this is not always the case. There are often mixes as well... Albert Collins liked to lay shuffle-based (triplets) licks over standard 4/4 time. Some guys inadvertantly pull off standard licks over shuffle (you might also see shuffle as 12/8, depending on tempo of song and such).

Most of SRV's blues stuff is shuffle rhythm... real sweet ideas based on the most basic principles. Same with your Claptons, Kings, etc.

Here's some songs for reference:

Shuffle - Pride and Joy (SRV)
Standard - Crossroads (Cream)
Some shuffle over standard - Ice Pick (Albert Collins)
12/8 shuffle-based rhythm - Any slow SRV (Tin Pan Alley, Ain't Gone and Give Up On Love, Texas Flood) or BB King (Sweet Sixteen, The Thrill Is Gone)

red:cheers:

epacers7
06-30-2005, 09:00 AM
u can just plug ur open string chords (major if u like i asked my guitar teacher who is predominantly a blues player) altho u usualy use ur dominant 7s neways theres also the "bogey wogey" patterns the 2 most common of which r
p5 M6 p5 M6 & p5 M6 m7 M6

so like a perfect fifth on the E and a strings looks like this:
A|-7
E|-5

a Major 6 would look like this
A|-9
E|-5

a minor 7 with look like this
A|-10
E|-5

so part of a 12 bar blues pattern could look like this(p5,M6,p5,M6):
D|----------------------|-7-7-9-9-7-7-9-9|----------------...
A|-7-7-9-9-7-7-9-9-|-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-|-7-7-9-9-7-7...
E|-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-5-|----------------------|-5-5-5-5-5-5...
and so on simply plugging in these power chord/intervals into the patterns specified above

jmc89
06-30-2005, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by redwing_suck
^Actually, all the chords in standard 12-bar blues are dominant. All of them, all the time.


no

slash_pwns
06-30-2005, 01:43 PM
^Yes.

slash_pwns
06-30-2005, 01:53 PM
Heres a shuffle 12 bar blues pattern... In E.

Q.=80(8=s8)
E7
4/4
|-3-| |-3-|
E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
||--------------------|-------------------|
||o-------------------|-------------------|
||--------------------|-------------------|
||--------------------|-------------------|
||o-2-2-4-2-2-2-----2-|-2-2-4-2-2-2-----2-|
||--0-0-0-0-0-0-3h4---|-0-0-0-0-0-0-3h4---|


|-3-| |-3-|
E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
|-------------------|--------------------|
|-------------------|--------------------|
|-------------------|--------------------|
|-------------------|--------------------|
|-2-2-4-2-2-2-----2-|-2-2-4-2-2-2-----2--|
|-0-0-0-0-0-0-3h4---|-0-0-0-0-0-0-3h4----|


A7
|-3-| |-3-|
E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-------------------|-------------------|
|-2-2-4-2-2-2-----2-|-2-2-4-2-2-2-----2-|
|-0-0-0-0-0-0-3h4---|-0-0-0-0-0-0-3-4---|
|-------------------|-------------------|


E7
|-3-| |-3-|
E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E
|-------------------|--------------------|
|-------------------|--------------------|
|-------------------|--------------------|
|-------------------|--------------------|
|-2-2-4-2-2-2-----2-|-2-2-4-2-2-2-----2--|
|-0-0-0-0-0-0-3h4---|-0-0-0-0-0-0-3h4----|


B7 A7 E7 B7
E E Q Q Q E E Q Q Q E E Q Q Q q Q H
|------------------|---------------|--------------|-------7----||
|------------------|---------------|--------------|-------7---o||
|------------------|---------------|--------------|-------8----||
|------------------|---------------|--------------|-------7----||
|-/9-9-11--12--11--|-7-7-9--10--9--|-2-2-4--5--4--|-9-----9---o||
|-/7-7--7---7---7--|-5-5-5---5--5--|-0-0-0--0--0--|-7-----7----||

Zamboni
06-30-2005, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by jmc89
no

nice try. like you're actually going to tell redwing something he doesn't know about theory.

jmc89
06-30-2005, 02:33 PM
they CAN be dominant but they dont have to be

Zamboni
06-30-2005, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by slash_pwns
Heres a shuffle 12 bar blues pattern... In E.

...|

Looks sorta like Bring It On Home.

epacers7
06-30-2005, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by jmc89
they CAN be dominant but they dont have to be

hes completely right the r usually dominant 7s but u can use major chords too my guitar teacher was telling me about it seeing as he plays predominantly blues

slash_pwns
06-30-2005, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Zamboni
Looks sorta like Bring It On Home.

It does :\

Its just a standard thing, though.

redwing_suck
06-30-2005, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by jmc89
they CAN be dominant but they dont have to be The inherent tension in the progression makes them all dominant. Every part of the song, bassline, piano, etc. makes them all dominant. Show me a song where all of the chords are maj7 and it's 12-bar blues, and show me how and why.

You won't, or at least you won't find one that teaches us anything.

jmc89
06-30-2005, 05:19 PM
I didn't say anything about maj7. I said they ALL don't have to be dominant 7th chord, the most basic progressions use 135 maj chords too without the b7.

John Swift
06-30-2005, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by epacers7
hes completely right the r usually dominant 7s but u can use major chords too my guitar teacher was telling me about it seeing as he plays predominantly blues I've played blues for over forty years and invariably they are played on Major chords, I've discussed, with musos in the two blues bands that I regularly gig with, this obsession that people on this site seem to have with 7ths, they are as mystified as I am as to where this all comes from, the 7th is used but usualy on bar four as a transition to IV and bar twelve V.
Too many times on this forum do people with very little actual playing experience behind them pass opinions when the have little or no practical working knowledge on the subject that they are claiming to be conversant with!
I know that this post will upset some people but to anyone who answers will they please indicate their actual experience and how long they have been playing blues, I play in four bands two of which are predominantly blues and the other two play some blues in their sets.

jmc89
06-30-2005, 05:28 PM
http://www.torvund.net/guitar/BluesGuitar/12_bar_in_E-introduction.asp



you'll see they don't have to be all dominant 7ths

Zamboni
06-30-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by slash_pwns
It does :\

Its just a standard thing, though.
Yeah, it's a great riff. Very versatile.

renato
06-30-2005, 07:26 PM
how very interesting this thread is, you learn all sorts on this forum; i'd agree with the all chords need to be dominant, if you use the IVmaj7, or even the Imaj7 the tone is much more 'sweet' and loses the jaggedness of blues. But then again, as john swift points out, there's a stange obsession with 7ths here. Its probably cause we all want to show we're beyond diads and tirtone chords and are entering the world of chord voicings.. so humor us please.

Zamboni
06-30-2005, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by John Swift
I've played blues for over forty years and invariably they are played on Major chords, I've discussed, with musos in the two blues bands that I regularly gig with, this obsession that people on this site seem to have with 7ths, they are as mystified as I am as to where this all comes from, the 7th is used but usualy on bar four as a transition to IV and bar twelve V.
Too many times on this forum do people with very little actual playing experience behind them pass opinions when the have little or no practical working knowledge on the subject that they are claiming to be conversant with!
I know that this post will upset some people but to anyone who answers will they please indicate their actual experience and how long they have been playing blues, I play in four bands two of which are predominantly blues and the other two play some blues in their sets.
I believe that you are under the impression that experience somehow correlates directly with knowledge. This is not so. Sure you may be an experienced blues player, that doesn't mean you know shit from shinola about music theory.

The implied tonality of all 12-bar blues progressions is dominant. I'm sorry if you require a little side-note to tell you that, but a musical ear picks that up almost instantly.

renato
06-30-2005, 08:30 PM
How agressive.. does that make you feel better? perk you up a bit... i know that many of us have shít dayjobs, and being an ice cleaner really got to suck. but again, was that necessary?

slash_pwns
06-30-2005, 09:42 PM
You can go and play major chords, but you should really atleast have the V7.

redwing_suck
07-01-2005, 01:47 AM
For the record, my "all maj7" reference was to the thread starter. I inadvertantly linked that sentence with my response to the jmc89. :bonk:

I will do myself a favor and not chime in because either way there are people here who have known blues longer than I've been alive. I'd rather not turn it into a full-fledged bout of the theory-knowers that it shouldn't ever be.

John Swift
07-01-2005, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by slash_pwns
You can go and play major chords, but you should really atleast have the V7. Read my thread bar 12 the turnaround, overuse of the 7th chord is a waste and bad practise.

slash_pwns
07-01-2005, 08:07 AM
^Well then I guess I'll be practicing bad for the rest of my life becsue I like seventh chords...

casualty01
07-01-2005, 08:12 AM
and most bluesmen as well slash..

Cas-:peace:

John Swift
07-01-2005, 09:42 AM
Originally posted by casualty01
and most bluesmen as well slash..

Cas-:peace:
Most bluesmen where?, I didn't notice this in Memphis or Nashville, or back in England. I didn't notice much evidence of overloading with 7th chords on my recording of the 'Beale St blues Band' either.
Recently I've teamed up with Joe Cocker's old UK guitarist we discussed a certain guitarist for 2nd guitar, I'm not having him he just keeps sticking in frigging 7th chords everywhere. was my mates response.

slash_pwns
07-01-2005, 12:11 PM
I could really care less about experience with blues bands, age, experience with guitar, thoery and all that stuff, but you can't change my mind (or anyone elses, for that matter) about the 7th chords.

IMO my dominant 7th chords in blues > Your Major (As Captain Colon would say, "Major pice of shit chords") chords. :)

Why you prefer major chords... Is beyond me.

Zamboni
07-01-2005, 12:34 PM
Swift, just quit while you're behind.

John Swift
07-01-2005, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by slash_pwns
I could really care less about experience with blues bands, age, experience with guitar, thoery and all that stuff, but you can't change my mind (or anyone elses, for that matter) about the 7th chords.IMO my dominant 7th chords in blues > Your Major (As Captain Colon would say, "Major pice of shit chords") chords. :)
Why you prefer major chords... Is beyond me. I never mentioned theory I leave that to all the lounge so-called musos who spend most of their music life pontificating on this forum about this scale and that, this mode and that mode etc etc etc then when you ask them where they gig they tell you that they have a gig coming up in August (they don't say which August) or I did one last month and I've another in 3 months time, but I know my scales and 7ths though.
What I said is fact from where I play, if you couldn't care less about my experience that's up to you I wouldn't care to teach a blinkered bigot such as you anyway and that would be your loss as I certainly have nothing to learn from you.
As Renato pointed out why this obsession with 7ths why the agression when someone says something against what you have have mistakenly been lead to believe.
slash_pwns & Zamboni being rude to people is just a way of showing that you have no point to discuss.
Get out and get some time and grime on your instruments before coming on and acting like know-alls.
Tonight in a couple of hours I will playing one of my three gigs this weekend I will also be playing next Tuesday and Wednesday,
where will you be playing?

12 bar blues 3 bars Cmajor + 1 Bar C7, 2 bars Fmajor, 2 bars Cmajor, 1 bar G7, 1 bar Fmajor, 1 bar Cmajor, 1 bar G7.


:no: :peace: :no: :peace:

Zamboni
07-01-2005, 01:23 PM
Originally posted by John Swift
I never mentioned theory I leave that to all the lounge so-called musos who spend most of their music life pontificating on this forum about this scale and that, this mode and that mode etc etc etc then when you ask them where they gig they tell you that they have a gig coming up in August (they don't say which August) or I did one last month and I've another in 3 months time, but I know my scales and 7ths though.
What I said is fact from where I play, if you couldn't care less about my experience that's up to you I wouldn't care to teach a blinkered bigot such as you anyway and that would be your loss as I certainly have nothing to learn from you.
As Renato pointed out why this obsession with 7ths why the agression when someone says something against what you have have mistakenly been lead to believe.
slash_pwns & Zamboni being rude to people is just a way of showing that you have no point to discuss.
Get out and get some time and grime on your instruments before coming on and acting like know-alls.
Tonight in a couple of hours I will playing one of my three gigs this weekend I will also be playing next Tuesday and Wednesday,
where will you be playing?

12 bar blues 3 bars Cmajor + 1 Bar C7, 2 bars Fmajor, 2 bars Cmajor, 1 bar G7, 1 bar Fmajor, 1 bar Cmajor, 1 bar G7.


:no: :peace: :no: :peace:
I didn't consider my posts to you rude, but now I'm going to intentionally be rude because you, sir, have it coming, and I think you need to hear this from a "blinkering bigot, know-all" as you so eloquently stated.
I don't give a flying fuck if you have 12 "gigs" a week, that doesn't mean you know shit about your instrument, or your field.
I, sir, play my guitar, on average, upwards of 3-4 hours a day, and I consider myself a good player. I also know music theory. And it is my experience that people who disrespect musical theorists are generaly too ignorant to learn the theory themselves.
So you go play your smelly bar gigs with your burnt out, old, shitty blues band, and I'll continue playing, learning, and studying music theory, and actually make something of myself.

John Swift
07-01-2005, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Zamboni
I, sir, play my guitar, on average, upwards of 3-4 hours a day, and I consider myself a good player. I also know music theory. And it is my experience that people who disrespect musical theorists are generaly too ignorant to learn the theory themselves.So you go play your smelly bar gigs with your burnt out, old, shitty blues band, and I'll continue playing, learning, and studying music theory, and actually make something of myself.
For your information my dear sir I did study for several years including 2 years at a top music academy in London England.
As I said I've met and ignored lounge musos like you many times down the years.
You will just wake up one day and wonder why you spent so much time practising, you only become a musician when you are performing you learn your theory at home and put it into practise on stage as I did.
You may think that you are a good player but that is just your opinion, praise from recognised musicians is what counts, and I don't mean Lounge/Garage musuos I mean gigging musos.

redwing_suck
07-01-2005, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by John Swift
where will you be playing?
In one of my three gigs this weekend.

I respect you for your experience but when it comes to something as simple as this, I can't see why your view, which is different from everyone else's, is infallible.

John Swift
07-01-2005, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by redwing_suck
In one of my three gigs this weekend.

I respect you for your experience but when it comes to something as simple as this, I can't see why your view, which is different from everyone else's, is infallible. If you read all of the replies it isn't different from everone elses

Zamboni
07-01-2005, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by John Swift
For your information my dear sir I did study for several years including 2 years at a top music academy in London England.
I find that hard to believe, considering your lack of respect for music theory.

As I said I've met and ignored lounge musos like you many times down the years.
Then you are ignorant and are limiting what you can accomplish. (And don't say a shitty run-down bar gig is accomplishment.)

You will just wake up one day and wonder why you spent so much time practising,
No, I won't.

you only become a musician when you are performing
Wrong. You become a musician from work and practice and studying. Performing is a result of all of that.

you learn your theory at home and put it into practise on stage as I did.
You learn theory whenever and however you can.

You may think that you are a good player but that is just your opinion,
Oh, I have reason to believe that I am a good player, not from just my opinion, but from numerous recording engineers and people in the music scene.

praise from recognised musicians is what counts, and I don't mean Lounge/Garage musuos I mean gigging musos.
You just keep thinking that.

redwing_suck
07-01-2005, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by John Swift
If you read all of the replies it isn't different from everone elses Just about everyone (key phrase "just about") says "Dominants everywhere" and you say "Very few dominants." I read them.

EDIT: I recommend someone closes this before it turns everyone against everyone else.

Zamboni
07-01-2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by redwing_suck
I can't see why your view, which is different from everyone else's, is infallible.
Because he's a 40 year old burn out who's living out his unattainable dreams on the internet.

John Swift
07-01-2005, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Zamboni
Because he's a 40 year old burn out who's living out his unattainable dreams on the internet. I've lived my dreams and when I have more time I will correct the misquoting that morons like you always fall back on.
But now I'm off to my gig what are you doing practising!
:peace:

beatallica_fan
07-01-2005, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by John Swift
I've lived my dreams and when I have more time I will correct the misquoting that morons like you always fall back on.
But now I'm off to my gig what are you doing practising!
:peace:

Playing at Live 8,? Who you backing? the floyd, macca, U2, snoop doggy dogg???

next weeks installment, John tells us of the time he played in a band with Elvis's drummers, second cousins mother on harmonica and they invented grunge.