pentatonic positions?


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mr. cool
10-31-2005, 11:41 AM
ok so these are the 5 pentatonic positions right

http://www.theorylessons.com/pentpos.html
so now my problem is that well only the first position starts and ends with the root (and sortof the 5th) so wtf what do i do with the others?

SilentDeftone
10-31-2005, 11:48 AM
Those appear to be modes of the major pentatonic scale.

-SD :dance:

gynther flynt
10-31-2005, 12:22 PM
well when you look at the first picture that shows the entire fretboard, you can see the red spots.

you don't have to worry about the damn positions, the fretboard is just cut down to pieces so that it's easier to remember the entire scale.

the red spots are just notes. when you play the notes that are marked red, you'll be in key.

don't worry about what to do with the positions. they're just extensions to the scale so that you don't have to stay in that little "box", and you can use the entire fretboard in your soloing and composing and get more creative.

phlowtron23
10-31-2005, 12:52 PM
Is it possible to use one position on the whole fretboard?

God withus
10-31-2005, 02:02 PM
You could, but as you move the "box," the key would change. If your root is on A, the key is A. B, the key is B, etc.

Corwinoid
10-31-2005, 02:52 PM
Those appear to be modes of the major pentatonic scale.

-SD :dance:
NO THEY ARE NOT

I would have expected more out of you than this... a mode is based on how you play it, not its shape and position. Those are positions of the pentatonic, period.

soundwave05683
10-31-2005, 03:00 PM
actually to correct every one those are the five postions of the pentatonic minor
some people here said major, but its minor
and those are 5 different modes of the pentatonic minor

Duman
10-31-2005, 03:16 PM
NO THEY ARE NOT

I would have expected more out of you than this... a mode is based on how you play it, not its shape and position. Those are positions of the pentatonic, period.

Well it's hardly a clear website really, depends just where you started playing the positions. If you started all 5 positions from the notes on the low E string then obviously they'd be modes, but then again it shows the root note the same every position so they could be called positions too..

Corwinoid
10-31-2005, 03:25 PM
No No NO NO NO. A mode is based on the long term interaction of combined tones... it is _NOT_ based on where you ****ing play a scale on a given instrument.

Those are positions, period. End of discussion.

There's no practical difference in sonority between one and the other, except that they have a different range above and below the lowest and highest root of the scale that can be played. Different positions have different extensions. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM A DIFFERENT MODE.

Modality deals with tonality, not the ****ing pattern, not the ****ing position, and not the lowest ****ing note that gets played.

mr. cool
10-31-2005, 04:31 PM
so i still play out of the box then its just if i feel like adding a little more to it i can tack one of those positions on above or below it? is that how this things work

Jandy
10-31-2005, 09:59 PM
No No NO NO NO. A mode is based on the long term interaction of combined tones... it is _NOT_ based on where you ****ing play a scale on a given instrument.

Those are positions, period. End of discussion.

There's no practical difference in sonority between one and the other, except that they have a different range above and below the lowest and highest root of the scale that can be played. Different positions have different extensions. THAT DOES NOT MAKE THEM A DIFFERENT MODE.

Modality deals with tonality, not the ****ing pattern, not the ****ing position, and not the lowest ****ing note that gets played.

Man, Corwinoid is very knowledgable and gives great advice but he sets off like a firework in a lighter factory.

To try and alleviate the anger however. I get it ;)


Try this to better understand

Take a piece of notebook paper and draw out 13 frets, first being open. Now label the chromatic scale with intervals. Use the key of C for simplicity. Start with the low E string so:

E- 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
3 4 b5 5 b6 6 b7 7 1 b2 2 b3 3

Now do the rest of the strings.

Now right out a new fretboard and do the same thing you just did but omit all notes except the 1 b3 4 5 and b7. You have just mapped out the entire minor pentatonic scale.

If you start at any 1 and play each of the intervals to the octave one you'll hear that the notes all have the same relation, just higher or lower depending on where you play it, but the relation between each note remains the same. Play

a------8
e---8---

Now play

e------1
b---1---

You should hear the correlation.

Corwinoid
10-31-2005, 10:03 PM
Eh... sorry man, I'm sick and irritable. It's like PMS without the bleeding from my twat.

Jandy
10-31-2005, 10:09 PM
Understandable.

We all need tough love sometimes.

`NeXxuS`
11-01-2005, 12:25 AM
Eh... sorry man, I'm sick and irritable. It's like PMS without the bleeding from my twat.

whoa whoa, you dont have a twat... do you?

thats fucked

Corwinoid
11-01-2005, 02:47 AM
^ That's utterly beside the point.

mr. cool
11-01-2005, 08:28 PM
so anyways i am still really not getting this

ChurchNSkate
11-01-2005, 08:33 PM
lol
What part of this are you not getting.

That link up there is every position of the pentatonics, minor or major, depending on what note you start on.

Jandy
11-01-2005, 09:16 PM
so anyways i am still really not getting this

If you read my post, you'll realize that the minor pentatonic is just 1 b3 4 5 b7 mapped out all over the fretboard, the postions are just suggested guidelines for fingering them. You could finger them differently, but most people use similar positions. Seeing as how there are 6 strings with 22 frets that means a single note on a string will repeat once or twice only. Therefore in many postions you will note be starting on the root. It doesn't matter, just play the positions from top to bottom, when you put them into practical application, start your solo/lick/run on the root and move anywhere within the scale you please, it's not like all solos have to start and end on a root note on the low E or high E strings. I don't really understand what you aren't comprehending.

mr. cool
11-01-2005, 10:13 PM
--------------------------
| 1 | 4 |7b|3b| 5 | 1 |
| | | | | | |
================ <<<nut
| | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
| | 5 | 1 | 4 | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
|3b| | | |7b|3b|
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
so is it like instead of using this in my solos i use
--------------------------
| 1 | 4 |7b|3b| 5 | 1 |
| | | | | | |
================ <<<nut
| | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
| | 5 | 1 | 4 | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
|3b| | | |7b|3b|
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
| | | | 5 | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
| 4 |7b|3b| | 1 | 4 |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------


or is it instead of the first example i use
--------------------------
| |3b| | | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
| | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
| 1 | 4 |7b|3b| 5 | 1 |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
| | | | | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
| | 5 | 1 | 4 | | |
| | | | | | |
--------------------------
|3b| | | |7b|3b|
| | | | | | |
--------------------------

and thus by adding the extra note i borrow from the other positsions

or is it used more like when you run pentatonic stuff down/up and across the fret board?


so yeah i tried but since thats kinda wierd...the first one is supposed to be the first position, the second one is supposed to be the 1st and 2nd positions and the last one is where the 1st position repeats at the 12th fret but with the 3b pulled out of the 5th position.

Jandy
11-02-2005, 02:47 AM
oh man...

Well that came out quite the cluster fck but I think I see what youre trying to get at, and youre still not getting it. Look at that form (which is know as the box shape) goes:

http://www.theorylessons.com/images/pentpos1.jpg

So when you practice it start on the low e string on the very first dot and work your way all the way up to b3 (aka the last dot. Some people may suggest just going to the 1 on the high e but I say go to b3, I like knowing every note available to me in a position)

Lets pretend you are in the key of A. You would start the scale above on the 5th fret low e string and play it all the way to the 8th fret high e string

Okay so now when you look at a different a different position you don't INCLUDE notes from it in your position, you move your entire hand to the new positon, leaving your box shape behind, start at the low e string, (IT DOESNT HAVE TO START ON THE 1) and play to the high e string every note in the position.....

http://www.theorylessons.com/images/pentpos2.jpg

Now remember we are in A right? So now you would play THIS position starting at the 8th fret low e string and then play every dot until you hit the 10th fret high e string.

I think your mistake was that you were trying to pull intervals out of other positions.... I think they might have confused you referring to them as modes...

mr. cool
11-02-2005, 04:02 PM
so basically rather than playing straight through the scale the way it is in the first position 1 3b 4 5 7b 1 3b 4 5 7b 1 3b

i would play with in the scale, but not acutally straight through like that so in position 2 it would be set up like this 3b 4 5 7b 1 3b 4 5 7b 1 3b 4

so its still the pentatonic just presented differently

?

Jandy
11-02-2005, 04:14 PM
Correct, and there's nothing wrong with doing that. The way the guitar is built it would be impossible for you to start on the 1 on the low e for every postion. All those postions are the same exact intervals and notes, just in different places and with a different pitch ( but same note )Think about it, when you actually start doing lead with the pentatonic you aren't always going to run through the scale like this: 1 b3 4 5 b7 1 etc... you move in all different ways. Just learn those postions and then learn how they connect. Get a blues backing track and play over it and you'll see. If you have any more questions post up.

gynther flynt
12-15-2005, 08:07 AM
okay sure you can solo with just the first position, but it sounds really simple. other positions also make you look at the fretboard differently, causing you to make different kind of licks and solos. here's how you connect all the positions:

the first position:

|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|
the root note

so if you wanna solo in the key of G (which is the third fret on the low e-string), just use this position so that the root note is on the third fret. of course if you wanna use the entire fret board, you need other positions, cause using the same position changes the root note, causing you to switch key!!!

so, to make things clearer, i'll show all the notes played on the pentatonic minor scale in the key of G:

|-G-|----|----|A#|
|-D-|----|----|-F-|
|A#|----|-C-|----|
|-F-|----|-G-|----|
|-C-|----|-D-|----|
|-G-|----|----|A#|

SEE! there are only 5 notes played in total! G, A#, C, D, and F.

Then there's the second position:

|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|----|-O-|----|-O-|

this has all the exact same notes played over and over again!
and here's how you connect them:

____________
| position 2 |
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|_position 1___|

THE RIGHT END OF THE 1. POSTION AND THE LEFT END OF THE 2. POSTION ARE EXACTLY THE SAME!!!
that's how you can connect them. and the 5. position connects back to the 1:

|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|


those other guys tried to tell you about intervals and that ****. don't worry about it now, just try to learn this scale position by position working your way up the entire freat little by little. it takes a while before you can solo with these without stopping to think, but don't worry, you'll get there.

gynther flynt
12-15-2005, 08:09 AM
uhh... i meant it like this:
__________
| position 2 |
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|_position 1___|

gynther flynt
12-15-2005, 08:11 AM
damn, it won't work! one more try:
____________
| position 2 |
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|-O-|----|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|-O-|----|----|-O-|
|-O-|----|----|-O-|----|-O-|
|_position 1___|

gynther flynt
12-15-2005, 08:12 AM
****!!!!

anyways the 2. position starts on the 2nd fret in the picture.

SilentDeftone
12-15-2005, 02:38 PM
:no:

Bumping and quadruple posting.

-SD :dance: