Notation question (unisons and bends)


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Yertle
12-19-2005, 05:58 PM
I'm curious as too how you portray the same note played on different strings in sheet music. For example, how would you portray




G|-0-0------------------|
D|-5-5-0----------------|
A|-----5----------------|
E|----------------------|

on sheet music? I've been reading sheet music for 5 + years and never come across it.

Guitar_Dude777
12-19-2005, 06:04 PM
are you serious?? you just play it as it looks...

Remebol
12-19-2005, 06:09 PM
probably like you have double sides dots , like 2 dots and in the middle is the line maybe

Phreakdawg
12-19-2005, 06:12 PM
are you serious?? you just play it as it looks...
Oh, that's all you do? Thanks. He's talking about sheet music, not tabulature, genius.

Sorry, dude, but I cannot answer this question as I can't read sheet music for guitar, but I am very curious what the answer is.

rainman5190
12-19-2005, 06:15 PM
its the same note, sheet music doenst matter about strings, just the note, so you play it wherever it's easiest for you

Phreakdawg
12-19-2005, 06:16 PM
Do they ever have like, suggestions for a way to play, kind of like how they put suggested fingerings on piano sheet music sometimes?

jof1029
12-19-2005, 06:27 PM
i just put that in guitar pro to see what it did, and it put two heads on the note. there was one on each side of the line, but they were connnected. so kinda like:
. |
o|o
except that the dots connect to the line instead of separated slightly like i have them.

EDIT: ignore the little dot, thats only there for spacing.

[T]ANK
12-20-2005, 01:07 AM
the only thing in sheet music they really suggest is what finger to play with... sometimes :rolleyes:

Yertle
12-20-2005, 05:00 PM
i just put that in guitar pro to see what it did, and it put two heads on the note. there was one on each side of the line, but they were connnected. so kinda like:
. |
o|o
except that the dots connect to the line instead of separated slightly like i have them.

EDIT: ignore the little dot, thats only there for spacing.

Alright, thanks, I figured it would be something along those lines.

sirpsycho85
12-20-2005, 06:32 PM
i've seen instrument specific instructions on sheet music before so quite possibly there can be a little explanation saying to play something open. if it's the same note doubled, then the double notehead works, but i mean you can tripple a note too and then what? my guess is that it's normal to just add a little note in. i've seen a note explaining to use a les paul style guitar and set one pickup to volume 0 and the other one on, then flip the switch for a quick attack. for any non-standard way of playing your instrument, the only way i think to notate it is through language.

DiatonicD
12-26-2005, 08:37 AM
I'm curious as too how you portray the same note played on different strings in sheet music. For example, how would you portray




G|-0-0------------------|
D|-5-5-0----------------|
A|-----5----------------|
E|----------------------|

on sheet music? I've been reading sheet music for 5 + years and never come across it.
It would just appear as two G's and a D.

Which fingering you use is totally up to your own interpretation.

-Gav

jof1029
12-26-2005, 12:48 PM
^ first of all, you are wrong. i already said what it would be, two note heads.

second of all, stop trying to boost your post count by posting in every old thread you can find. you should probably get a warning for spamming if you keep it up.

casualty01
12-26-2005, 01:33 PM
well, jof so far has been the only one whose given you the actual answer. now here's a graphic so you can see it.

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=433930&img=unison.jpg

Cas-:peace:

DiatonicD
12-27-2005, 03:16 AM
^ first of all, you are wrong. i already said what it would be, two note heads.

second of all, stop trying to boost your post count by posting in every old thread you can find. you should probably get a warning for spamming if you keep it up.
Show me a song in which you have to play the same note twice simultaneously.

-Gav

casualty01
12-27-2005, 03:53 AM
Show me a song in which you have to play the same note twice simultaneously.

-Gav


are you kidding me? lol

how about the first notes of Hey Joe?

how about the intro to Pride and Joy? also, not to mention about 50% of the entire solo.

how about the countless songs from AIC, Janes Addiction, STP, and God knows who else who uses these chords



--0---
--0--- Unison!
--4--- Unison!
--5---
--5---
--3---

--0--- Unison!
--0---
--9--- Unison!
--10--
--10--
--8---


Page also plays that 2nd chord a couple of times during the section in Stairway that comes right after the solo, actually, during the solo too.

Dave Matthews likes this particular chord.


--0------- Unison!
--0------- Unison!
--9------- Unison!
--9------- Unison!
--x-------
--8-------



oh and lets not forget the likes of Khaki King, Ani' DiFranco and of course the splendid Joni Mitchell. all of whom regularly play in altered open tunings involving strings that are tuned identical to each other.

and while we're on the subject of strings being tuned to each other, ever hear a 12-string guitar? yeah... well, the first 2 strings E & B both have identically tuned strings right next to them.

ooo... and Kashmir.

loads of blues tunes... specifically country blues and acoustic blues.

most country flatpicking licks involve that pedal steel sound, which is achieved through playing unisons.

nearly every celtic tune.

oh, and every time you play a unison bend... (of which, there's just too many songs to name)


all of these examples, and these are but a few, are situations, chords, tunes and styles where you're playing two identical notes at the same exact time. and THAT up there, is how it's notated.


Cas-:peace:

Angusman60
12-27-2005, 12:16 PM
is there really even anypoint in playing the same note twice like that?

DiatonicD
12-27-2005, 06:14 PM
Cas, I am interested in seeing the notation for those songs, because I would think that it would just have the note once, making playing the same note on two different strings rather pointless.

Also, a notated (we're talking about notation, remember? Not tab) unison bend from A to B would look like an A and a B on the staff, because you can't notate bends.

-Gav

casualty01
12-27-2005, 08:08 PM
Cas, I am interested in seeing the notation for those songs, because I would think that it would just have the note once, making playing the same note on two different strings rather pointless.

Also, a notated (we're talking about notation, remember? Not tab) unison bend from A to B would look like an A and a B on the staff, because you can't notate bends.

-Gav


ROTFL .... are you kidding me? can't you just NOT comment if you don't know what you're talking about?

bends have a notation, it's a grace note (of the starting pitch) without a stem followed by a ^ connecting to a full notehead (the bent pitch)

one second... let me scan one of the thousands of examples I have at my disposal.


also... I don't need to be reminded to post it in notation.

I know we're talking about "notation".

I'm the one who knows what he's talking about here. YOU seem to not have any idea.

apparently you've learned your notational skills from powertab, which is missing so many things it's ridiculous. particularly the bend notation that EVERY guitar publication and publishing company uses. but hell, even THEY do the double note for unison things.

Cas-:peace:

casualty01
12-27-2005, 08:09 PM
ok... well, here they are.

for the purpose of covering the matter completely and putting this subject to bed, I've covered all the bending situations I could think of atm. and all with examples from ONE issue of a magazine.

let's go to the .. er.. images, shall we?

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=434299&img=bend_notations.jpg

ok, in the above you will notice exactly what I'm talking about right in the first beat of the first bar. a bend from F# to G#. how is it notated?

come on come on... can't hear ya? what's that? EXACTLY like I said? yup... who'd of thunk it.


hell, lets blow it up a bit. really get a good education here.



http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=434298&img=bend_notation.jpg


we not only have bends, we have pre-bends in here!


Pre-Bends

ok, so lets see... you'll also notice that bend was held then played again while bent (pre-bend) and released back to it's natural pitch. as I stated, a bend that occurs immediately is notated with a stemless grace note. HERE you can see that a pre-bend has that same grace note, only with parenthesis around said grace note. and it's all very logical. it's bent from the F# so they show you that with a grace note, however since it's already bent, it's in parenthesis. it's bent to the G so you have a ^ leading from the grace note F# to the G. then it's released, the ^ now goes from that G to the F#.

in the 3rd measure on the 2nd line, you can see very clearly on the upbeat of the 3, that the A is coming out of a pre-bend to a G (20th fr. pre-bend and released). since the release is instant and has no actual rhythmic value they notate it accordingly. grace note with no stem designating the original pitch of said fret before it's bent (in parenthesis to illustrate it's pre-bent state) a ^ attached to a normal grace note of the pitch it IS bent to and of course a ^ leading back down to the original pitch.


1/4 step and other "in between" bends

we also have a 1/4 step bend in there on the upbeat of the 4. and we even have a way to notate that. since there's no standard western notation (as far as staff placement goes) for something a 1/4 step off, we use a kind of "reverse slur" for that ... see what I mean?


on to double stops!


http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=434300&img=double_stop_bend.jpg


Double Stop Bends

ahh, the great dirt and grunge that is the double stop bend, no mean ass blues is complete without them.

as you can see (sorry for the size of the pic) same thing, only with 2 notes. AND it's also a pre-bend.

so, we have 2 stemless grace notes with parenthesis, placed on the staff where the original pitches of the fret you're pre-bending would be, a ^ leading to the pitches you bend to and finally upon release, a ^ leading back down to the original pitches of said frets.


"well, what else can there possibly be Cas?!"

glad you asked D!

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=434301&img=pre_bends_oblique_bends.jpg

well, here's more of everything. however, I'd like you to take specific notice of the first measure on the 2nd line from the bottom (or bar 9, 5th line).

Oblique Bends

yup, that's right D, the infamous oblique bend. (for those that don't know or haven't figured it out, oblique bends are where you hit 2 or more notes and bend one or some notes while the other(s) remain unbent)

as you can see, the Eb (8th frt. G string) is bent a 1/2 step to an E. and, on the staff, the only note to have that symbol is THAT particular note. again, with all the same notations I've already gone over. (if you'll look just a tad bit further to the down of beat 2, you'll also see that lovely pre-bend release notation again!)






but hell, that's not what all this started over is it? nope... started over the unison thing. and, since you say bends can't be notated and more specifically, that when two notes of the same pitch are played at the same time, it would only be notated with one notehead placed on the staff, lets take a look at exhibit 5!

http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=434302&img=Unison_Bend.jpg

*BAM*

Unison Bends!

there it is! the down of beat 2 in the first bar. unison bend from the G to the A. and of course, it's notated as such. grace note, no stem, placed on the G, ^ going to the A.


"but hey, that's fine and dandy... but, what if you have like... a bunch of unison bends? they're not gonna do that over and over!"

yeah, you're probably right... I mean.. oh! ... wait, NOPE!


http://www.savepic.com/freepicturehosting/is.php?i=434303&img=holy_unison_bends_batman.jpg

wow! look at allllll those unison bends. (line 3... the line where 75% of the entire line is all unison bends)

oh, and what's really cool is the fact that with the exception of 4 instances, they're all pre-bent as well! so not only is the line full of double noteheads on the same exact position on the staff, it's also overflowing with impossible "no such thing as bend notation" symbols! (all of em have their parenthesis too!)

wow... just doesn't get any better than that does it?




and these are both from just one of hundreds of magazines and books I own. this one was actually on my floor right next to me. just leaned over, picked it up and boom... every example you argued doesn't exist was ready and waiting right at my finger tips.




look man, in the future, try not to argue notation with me. I know what I'm doing. I'm a professional musician who ALSO happens to be a professional transcriber (GuitarOne, Mel Bay, JustJazz Guitar, Alfred Publishing) AND engraver (JustJazz Guitar). and I've been doing this for some time now. I know my notational rules and symbols inside and out.

and before you (or anyone else for that matter) go calling me a pompous prick or whatever colorful expletives are careening through your mind at this point... remember, YOU argued this. and had YOU not stated, unequivocally, without a doubt, that "they wouldn't put two noteheads on the same line/space it's stupid/pointless" and then went so far as to state as if it were law that "there's no way to notate bends" and at the same time ending with a patronizing little remark about (we're talking about notation, remember? Not tab)


had you simply said "oh... really? can I see an example, man? I never knew you could notate bends" or something to that effect. it would've been fine and I wouldn't have responded in the manner in which I have.

however, you felt the need (for whatever reason) to continue to post incorrect info and then argue it, repeatedly, in a proud condescending manner.


learning is not something to avoid man, it's not something to be ashamed of. big deal, so you didn't know this stuff... just ask and I would've merely explained it. hell, I know my ins and out of notation better than most, but say for example, someone asked about a specific symbol for a particular orchestral arrangement. well, if I answer and Corwinoid comes in and corrects me... I'm not gonna say shiit. why? cause he's the orchestral guy ... he writes that shit for a living. why argue with a man who knows his oboes!

look... alls I'm saying here is, learn to accept that you don't know everything, and don't come at people with that attitude either cause there's always someone who knows more and who can, and will, hand your ass to you.


Cas-:peace:

Quadque72
12-27-2005, 08:54 PM
^....

holy crap.

DiatonicD
01-05-2006, 03:27 AM
Holy ****!

I'm willing to accept that I have been defeated but that's truely so very sad that you went to all that effort Mr. Professional Musician.

-Gav

SilentDeftone
01-05-2006, 01:04 PM
Holy ****!

I'm willing to accept that I have been defeated but that's truely so very sad that you went to all that effort Mr. Professional Musician.

-Gav
:rolleyes:
It's not about defeating people, it's about helping them with what knowledge you have.

-SD :dance:

casualty01
01-05-2006, 03:56 PM
:haha of course ...

"sad" ... so, what's sad? that I went to the effort to learn the proper way of doing things? or, or .. that I was adamant in not letting you soil other musical neophytes with your ignorance? or was it that after the first 15 minutes, I decided to take an extra half hour and cover all the bases just in case it comes up in the future I can now link someone to the post.

yeah, how pathetic of me and my standard of learning things the proper way and then passing on that knowledge. for shame!

and also, D, let it be known, I started with a simple post, got more elaborate as YOU continued to argue and then finally said "ok, let's put this bugger to rest".

when I do things, I do them thoroughly. whether it be answering someone's initial question, or correcting some persistently incorrect user. Sorry if the way I do things in my life carries over into everything I do. including posting on here. Guess that's why I have the credentials I have. consistency.

but wow man, man...thanks. I gotta remember to stop doing things to fullest extent possible, I'm just so sad :sad:


:rolleyes:

Cas-:peace:

Riryoku
01-05-2006, 04:06 PM
...pwned? :p:
______________________

No, CAS-trated ;)