Lou Reed and John Cale


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rocknroll blues
06-11-2006, 11:28 AM
So I don't know how many Velvet Underground fans there are out here on UG, but as many of you probably know this band was initially the musical home of two of the industry's greatest creative minds: Lou Reed and John Cale.

My question is this: of these two, who do you think was the more influential on the work the band produced (before Cale's departure), and who is just generally more awesome?

Personally, while I think it is safe to say Reed was more prolific, I think Cale's production techniques as well as his ability to implement classical and avant-garde/jazz stylings into the Velvet's music had a greater effect on their relevance.


...discuss.

VoodooChild15
06-11-2006, 09:37 PM
Just got into them this week. My dad had a greatest hits thing lying around that I popped in, and it inspired me to pick up The Velvet Underground & Nico. I can't stop listening. I'm inclined to go with Lou Reed, but I'm not exactly up on my stuff yet.

ufossuck
06-11-2006, 11:59 PM
John was more influential in VU. He made their music creepy. You can hear a complete difference between the John Cale albums and the Doug Yule albums. Of course, Lou was the brains behind the band, being the key songwriter, but John's creepieness really affectted Lou's writing. And as I've said before, Doug Yule was way better then John Cale.

DavidfortheWin
06-12-2006, 06:41 AM
The Velvets are my favourite band, thank god there are some fans out there! ^_^


I always look at their music like this: Reed wrote the songs, Cale just altered them. Both were hughly important but in the end, they are Reed's songs so i think he was more influencial. When Yule arrived he definitely suited Reed's lighter, popier side a lot more than Cale did. The beautiful thing about The VU is that all their albums sound compeltly different but all are absolutley fantastic in their own way.

Iluvpowerchords
06-13-2006, 02:31 PM
All the Velvet Underground fans are in the punk forum. ;)

xX*Zeppelin*Xx
06-13-2006, 05:40 PM
And as I've said before, Doug Yule was way better then John Cale.

Have you ever heard of SQUEEZE!? After Lou left, Doug took control of the group and the result was one of the worst albums ever.

ufossuck
06-13-2006, 09:43 PM
Have you ever heard of SQUEEZE!? After Lou left, Doug took control of the group and the result was one of the worst albums ever.
I've never actually heard anything from Squeeze, but The Velvet Underground and Loaded were better than The Velvet Underground and Nico and way better than White Light/White Heat.

xX*Zeppelin*Xx
06-14-2006, 11:13 AM
I've never actually heard anything from Squeeze, but The Velvet Underground and Loaded were better than The Velvet Underground and Nico and way better than White Light/White Heat.

You're entitled to your opinion but, IMO, that album was just the VU selling out. The reason for it sounding the way it does wasn't becuase of Cale's departure but because they were signed to a new record label who asked them to avoid sex and drug orientated songs and to write more polished, commercial tunes that would sell. Also, Reed still wrote all the songs on Loaded.

And you don't want to hear anything from Squeeze. Ever. :D

forevergonzo
06-22-2006, 05:29 PM
lou reed was more influential... for better or for worse
lou had more control over songwriting and did most of the vocals, and whenever john sang it was because lou wanted him too.
lou wrote most of the songs, and john made the music to the songs sound more interesting and experimental
reed was kind of a control freak, and kicked john out because he felt threatened by his artistic ability and possibility to control the band.... to say that doug yule better than john is just a stupid statement, yule was just somebody who did what reed told him too, and contributed nothing to the band's music
i like lou reed's solo work up until the blue mask in the early 80s (excluding metal machine music)
john has always been good solo... and i like the bands he went on to produce, like patti smith and the stooges for their first album

VoodooChild15
08-02-2006, 12:59 PM
Alright, I'm resurrecting this thread since its the most recent VU thread and I don't want to waste a whole new thread on this stupid little question. I've recently acquired White Light/White Heat (along with the bulk of the rest of the discography) and I was wondering if The Gift gives anyone else the jibblies. It's awesome, but it creeps the bejesus out of me.

Iluvpowerchords
08-02-2006, 01:13 PM
Alright, I'm resurrecting this thread since its the most recent VU thread and I don't want to waste a whole new thread on this stupid little question. I've recently acquired White Light/White Heat (along with the bulk of the rest of the discography) and I was wondering if The Gift gives anyone else the jibblies. It's awesome, but it creeps the bejesus out of me.

Personally I think White Light/White Heat is waaayyyy cooler then VU and Nico (it's my favorite.) I pretty much predicted how "The Gift" would end the midway through my first listening to it. I kind of figured the man would die, I just didn't know. I was pleased with the ending :D

I feel White Light/White heat was the Album where John Cale's influence on the band can really be felt most. His organ work on "Sister Ray" is just so fucking epic, and loud it can't be ignored. I really don't think the Velvets would have been the Velvets without Cale's experimentalist thinking.

The Velvets lost a little bit of their coolness when Cale left IMO.

VoodooChild15
08-02-2006, 01:31 PM
Yeah, I saw where it was going pretty early on too, but it still gets under my skin. I'll agree that White Light/White Heat is definitely their coolest, but I think I like their self-titled one after Cale left a little better, if only for What Goes On (best chords EVER). WL/WH is definitely the better of the two Cale albums, though. I really dig the Cale stuff, but it's decidedly harder to listen to than the Yule-era Velvets.

Barrett346
08-03-2006, 03:25 AM
Lou Reed pales in comparison to John Cale in every way imaginable. Not to say Lou Reed isn't awesome, but seriously, give Paris 1919 a listen and tell me who is cooler.

frippogenics
08-03-2006, 05:55 PM
Hard to say, Reed was the songwriter, but after Cale left...the band took a huge downfall, IMO. I don't even like Loaded. Velvet Underground is pretty good, but I like White Light/White Heat and their debut much much more.

I don't know how much you can attribute their attitude to Cale. Surely he added in the avant garde element...but I'll have to go with Reed kicking more ass...he's the one behind the lyrics and such.

rocknroll blues
08-03-2006, 06:51 PM
Personally I think White Light/White Heat is waaayyyy cooler then VU and Nico (it's my favorite.) I pretty much predicted how "The Gift" would end the midway through my first listening to it. I kind of figured the man would die, I just didn't know. I was pleased with the ending :D

I feel White Light/White heat was the Album where John Cale's influence on the band can really be felt most. His organ work on "Sister Ray" is just so fucking epic, and loud it can't be ignored. I really don't think the Velvets would have been the Velvets without Cale's experimentalist thinking.

The Velvets lost a little bit of their coolness when Cale left IMO.


More like... lost a LOT of their coolness!


Doug Yule makes me :puke:


Hypothetically. Velvet Underground is much more accessible than either of the Cale albums, as is Loaded. I feel like it would be a nice album to make out to...

Jarrett Moore
08-03-2006, 06:56 PM
What songs would you recommend me cause i'm just getting into the Velvet Underground and the only songs i've really heard are Venus in Furs and Heroine.

Barrett346
08-03-2006, 07:11 PM
^ For more conventional stuff, listen to I'm Waiting for the Man, Sunday Morning, Sweet Jane, Rock & Roll, Pale Blue Eyes, Candy Says, and basically anything else from Loaded or VU (their third album).

For avant-garde stuff, go with The Black Angel's Death Song (ahem, the best song ever), White Light/White Heat, Sister Ray, and European Son.

ufossuck
08-03-2006, 07:29 PM
What songs would you recommend me cause i'm just getting into the Velvet Underground and the only songs i've really heard are Venus in Furs and Heroine.
"The Heroine" wasn't VU, it was from Lou's solo career.

Barrett346
08-03-2006, 08:28 PM
^ I think he meant 'Heroin'

Jarrett Moore
08-03-2006, 10:44 PM
maybe