D# Major

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Ascendancy5
08-24-2006, 03:11 PM
Hey guys.

I was wondering what is sharp/flat in the D# Major scale. It's completly different from the Eb scale, as far as I know, So I was just wondering if you guys could help me out.

I tried it, and I got that A#, G#, and D# are the only sharps.

kirbyrocknroll
08-24-2006, 03:12 PM
Take the D major scale and sharp every note.

D major: D E F# G A B C#

D# major: D# E# Fx G# A# B# Cx

Ascendancy5
08-24-2006, 03:17 PM
That's pretty confusing. isn't E# the same as F and B# the same as C?

walkinbazooka
08-24-2006, 03:17 PM
what?^^

Ascendancy5
08-24-2006, 03:20 PM
Haha I just want to know if Kirby is correct or not because the note E# is the same note as F, and so is the note B# to C. Therefore, you can't create them in a major scale, or else it wouldn't be 7 notes long.

GumbyEater
08-24-2006, 03:26 PM
B# is enharmonically equivalent to C and E# is enharmonically equivalent to F, but they're still legitmate notes theory-wise. Here's the D# major scale for the theory illiterate:

D# F G G# A# C D D#

Written like this though, the notes do not make up a scale at all though, because a scale must have one variation of each of the 7 base tones (ABCDEFG), hence why B# and E# are used in the scale.

zxBane
08-24-2006, 03:27 PM
He's saying if you were to try and make it sharp, considering B, and C , and E , and F are just a semitone apart, so how would you do B#, or E#, wouldn't it just be F or C?? I am lost myself, I see what Ascendancy is asking though.

CkY freak
08-24-2006, 03:32 PM
Ascendancy is right, the only notes that are sharped are A#, G#, D#. I tried it, and thats what I got too.

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php?scch=D%23%2FEb&scchnam=Major&get2=Get

Look.

You can find out the notes in a major key by finding its relative minor scale. Now a minor 3rd down from D# is C

C, C#, D, D#/Eb

So the D# major has the same notes as a C minor scale.

Apply the WHWWHW formula.

C D D# F G G# A#
w h w w h w

So rearrange the notes starting with D#

D# F G G# A# C D = D# major scale

GumbyEater
08-24-2006, 03:39 PM
CkyFreak is wrong; D# F G G# A# C D is not a scale at all, but it is enharmonically equivalent to the D# major scale.

Also, the C minor scale has no sharps in it. The actual scale is C D Eb F G Ab Bb.

Which brings us back to the original poster: why are you choosing to spell the scale as D# instead of Eb. The D# major scale is generally considered obsolete, as the Eb major scale is much less confusing but enharmonically equivalent.

Eb major:
Eb F G Ab Bb C D

CkY freak
08-24-2006, 03:41 PM
yeah, I realize that, I just forgot to switch it over when I put it on here.

bmw8719
08-24-2006, 03:45 PM
From a theory point of view Kirby is correct. While you may think that you can do things like exchange B# for C and Gx for A, it messes other stuff up for theory. For example how could you build a E# triad if you dont have a Gx in your key? While the notes are enharmonically the same (played the same way on a fretboard) they have different implications.

And this is why no one really uses D# major, cuz it is a pain in the you know what!

psychodelia
08-24-2006, 04:37 PM
Ack. Gumby and kirby are correct.

Ascendancy5
08-24-2006, 04:40 PM
Thanks guys, this was insanely confusing, lol. But now i know to just stick to Eb :)

gpb0216
08-24-2006, 05:56 PM
I was wondering what is sharp/flat in the D# Major scale.There is no such thing as a key of D# Major. Our system of notation allows a maximum of seven sharps (F# C# G# D# A# E# B#). We reach this limit of seven sharps with the key of C#. As you continue around the Circle of Fifths (http://www.online-guitar-lesson.com/circle-of-fifths.html) beyond C# there are no enharmonic tonalities.
It's completly different from the Eb scale, as far as I know...In fact, Eb Major has no enharmonic tonality. It's all we have available to us at this point on the Co5 (http://www.online-guitar-lesson.com/circle-of-fifths.html). In other words, there is no such thing as a D# Major tonality.
I tried it, and I got that A#, G#, and D# are the only sharps.You have, in fact, identified the enharmonic equivalents of Eb Major's three flats: Bb, Eb and Ab.

Slurgi
08-25-2006, 12:18 AM
To add a little more information to what gpb0216 just said, the only three enharmonic key signatures that follow the "no more than 7 sharps or flats rule" are C#/Db, F#/Gb, B/Cb.

:cheers:
Slurgi

magicninja_
08-25-2006, 09:10 AM
Oh Pesci help me!!!!!!!!!!! E#/Fb and B#/Cb do not exist, at all, ever, strike them from your musical vocabulary or so help me it's baseball bats and cornfields. My theory proffesor would've had a heart attack hearing us discuss this in class.

Johnljones7443
08-25-2006, 10:09 AM
^E# is enharmonic to F, not Fb, and B# is enharmonic to C, not Cb.

Logz
08-25-2006, 10:14 AM
E = Fb
E# = F

B = Cb
B# = C

gpb0216
08-25-2006, 11:06 AM
Oh Pesci help me!!!!!!!!!!! E#/Fb and B#/Cb do not exist, at all, ever, strike them from your musical vocabulary or so help me it's baseball bats and cornfields. My theory proffesor would've had a heart attack hearing us discuss this in class.You and your so-called "theory professor" are very badly mistaken if you believe that E#, Fb, B# and Cb do not exist.

On the theoretical level, one has only to examine the Co5 to see that, not only do they exist, they merit their own sharp or flat in the keys of...
F# major / D# minor (E#)
C# major / A# minor (E# and B#)
Gb major / Eb minor (Cb)
Cb major / Ab minor (Cb and Fb)

On a practical level, pick up a copy of Bach's Well-Tempered Clavier (volume one or two, it doesn't matter), the Chopin Nocturnes or Etudes, or the Beethoven Sonatas, to name just a tiny portion of the literature. You will get very tired of counting before you reach the end of the E#s, Fbs, B#s and Cbs.

If you paid for this "theory instruction" you should demand your money back.

UtBDan
08-25-2006, 12:03 PM
Oh Pesci help me!!!!!!!!!!! E#/Fb and B#/Cb do not exist, at all, ever, strike them from your musical vocabulary or so help me it's baseball bats and cornfields. My theory proffesor would've had a heart attack hearing us discuss this in class.

as gpb said, your theory professor knows zippo theory if he ever told you that. Enharmonics are very important to the understanding of music beyond boxes.

E# and F sound the same, but you can't play a C# major scale without E#. You can't build an F# major scale. Well jeez, you can't call the major 7th for F# F.

That's what makes it a diatonic scale. Diatonic means that there are no Fs and then F#s. It means there is a maximum of one occurence of the note, basically.

axemanchris
08-25-2006, 05:18 PM
I was getting scared reading this thread. There are a few knowledgeable people in this thread setting the record straight, thank goodness.

Chris

magicninja_
08-26-2006, 01:44 AM
Nevermind. I'm an ass. I spoke before reading my notes thoroughly. You guys are right. Sorry for my stupidity.

Fl3tch3rb0y
02-09-2013, 08:41 AM
I was taught this at grade 1

The order of sharps and flats and corresponding keys:

#'s: F C G D A E B = Keys: Gmaj / Dmaj / Amaj / Emaj / Bmaj / F#maj / C#maj

b's: B E A D G C F = Keys: Fmaj / Bbmaj / Ebmaj / Abmaj / Dbmaj / Gbmaj / Cbmaj

So as far as I am concerned D# major doesn't exist unless you enjoy playing brain gymnastics :)

jazz_rock_feel
02-09-2013, 08:50 AM
Stupid thread from 7 years ago, bumped by a stupid post.

cdgraves
02-09-2013, 11:02 AM
you wouldn't normally spell a diatonic scale with double sharps or double flats. C# and Cb are as sharp and flat as you want to get.

jazz_rock_feel
02-09-2013, 11:32 AM
You can, but it's ludicrous, because D# major is the exact same thing as Eb major.
9 sharps vs 3 flats hmmm...

Double flats and double sharps can be totally legitimate in context, but there's no reason to use a scale/key that has double sharps/flats diatonically.

Junior#1
02-09-2013, 01:38 PM
I was taught this at grade 1

The order of sharps and flats and corresponding keys:

#'s: F C G D A E B = Keys: Gmaj / Dmaj / Amaj / Emaj / Bmaj / F#maj / C#maj

b's: B E A D G C F = Keys: Fmaj / Bbmaj / Ebmaj / Abmaj / Dbmaj / Gbmaj / Cbmaj

So as far as I am concerned D# major doesn't exist unless you enjoy playing brain gymnastics :)
You fail at life. There's no reason whatsoever to resurrect this thread. GTFO.

mdc
02-09-2013, 01:42 PM
You fail at life. There's no reason whatsoever to resurrect this thread. GTFO.
+1. What a cunt.