NAME THAT CHORD: The New Era


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VR2005
04-15-2007, 12:03 AM
Alright, I hate to take away the beloved “Name that chord” thread. But, it’s time to start a new one. This will involve the combination of the also popular “Music Theory Game” from Hurlyz and the “Name that Chord” thread by Vigil. Thanks to both of you for creating some gems in the MT forum that many people can use to go back and quiz themselves and such. Unfortunately both of these threads will be closed, and hopefully archived for their wealth.

Now let’s get down to business, no spamming or flaming.

No POSTING OUT OF TURN, this will result in a warning/ban depending on your warnings situation. We will really be cracking down on this, so hopefully everybody will take the time to read the rules.

Also, if the person who named the chord correctly does not post a question within 24 hours then it's up for grabs to anyone.

Any question pertaining to music theory or naming chords is welcome.

Finally, welcome and have fun. Let’s get this started with an easy one.

What is the name of this cadence: IV-I?

Cheers :D

Ead
04-15-2007, 12:09 AM
plagal cadence?

VR2005
04-15-2007, 12:20 AM
Correct, you are up my man.

hurlyz
04-15-2007, 12:23 AM
Unfortunately both of these threads will be closed:(

Anyways, I guess the 24hours rule still applies?? It says no posting out of turn but we don't want this to die huh?? :D

VR2005
04-15-2007, 12:38 AM
Well yes I did forget to add the 24 hour rule. This does still apply.

Ead
04-15-2007, 12:46 AM
e|---------------------------------------------------------------
B|------------------------------------------3h5p3----------
G|------------------6h9-------------------2----------2--------
D|--------7p6------------7-6-----------2----------------0----
A|-0h4s7--------7--------------7s4--5-------------------------
E|---------------------------------------------------------------


allright.. im not very keen at testing musical knowledge but what chords are being arpeggiated here :) i believe theres one best answer, could be wrong

chris_122
04-15-2007, 01:00 AM
Amaj7 and Dsus2?

Ead
04-15-2007, 01:03 AM
yup :)

chris_122
04-15-2007, 01:11 AM
Cool.

-3-
-6-
-3-
-3-
-3-
-x-

st.stephen
04-15-2007, 02:11 AM
C7sus (With two 4's?)

notoriousnumber
04-15-2007, 07:47 AM
Yeah its just C7sus4.

Uphill_Battle
04-15-2007, 07:58 AM
E|-6
B|-0
G|-0
D|-6
A|-6
E|-x

paintITblack39
04-15-2007, 12:03 PM
E|-6
B|-0
G|-0
D|-6
A|-6
E|-x
G# mmaj9

Uphill_Battle
04-15-2007, 12:59 PM
Trust me, I myself dunno the name of the chord I posted =P. It came by when I was playing a riff, and I always use weird chords like these.

kirbyrocknroll
04-15-2007, 01:31 PM
Wait your turn :mad: chris_122 has to confirm the answer.

chris_122
04-15-2007, 02:42 PM
C7sus (With two 4's?)
C7sus4 is correct. :D

VR2005
04-15-2007, 03:42 PM
E|-6
B|-0
G|-0
D|-6
A|-6
E|-x

Congrats, you just got your first warning.

AdamDK
04-15-2007, 05:21 PM
I'm lost now, who's turns it is? Oh well, I'll post a chord. If it is somebody's turn and they post their chord, scrap mine.

3454x3

There is three possible names, but I'll accept one.

Shorrock
04-15-2007, 05:31 PM
C# lydian augmented

AdamDK
04-15-2007, 05:34 PM
Correct, according to my research anyway. Others were:

G/5-
Bsus2/5+

justin_fraser
04-15-2007, 08:03 PM
I'm lost now, who's turns it is? Oh well, I'll post a chord. If it is somebody's turn and they post their chord, scrap mine.

3454x3

There is three possible names, but I'll accept one.

Really it is St. Stephens turn because he nailed the last chord. So if you are confused, then the 24 hour rule takes place. If the winner does not post a chord in 24 hours, then anyone can take a turn. Other than that, don't post one.

EDIT: Ethan, you should likely put that in the first post as well talking about the 24 hour rule cause I dont think its in there.

VR2005
04-15-2007, 08:31 PM
I'll get right on it.

Uphill_Battle
04-15-2007, 10:39 PM
(I'm sorry. I never really knew the rules of this game 'cause I've never played it before. My apologies for the inconvinience.)

VR2005
04-15-2007, 10:53 PM
That's fine, just read the opening post next time one of these pops up.

Peanut1614
04-16-2007, 07:24 PM
So whos turn is it...?

justin_fraser
04-16-2007, 07:58 PM
Ok, its been over 24 hours, Ill get the ball rolling again with a really easy one.

What kind of progression is happening here and what key is it in?

Abmaj - Ebmaj - Fmin - Dbmaj

Peanut1614
04-16-2007, 08:05 PM
G# D# F C#

Key is Ab?
And its a I - V - VI - IV?

Not sure if this is what you wanted?

fenderfrk10
04-16-2007, 08:06 PM
I-V-vi-IV in the key of Ab major

justin_fraser
04-16-2007, 08:09 PM
^nailed it

Peanut1614
04-16-2007, 08:12 PM
E: 3
B: 3
G: 0
D: 2
A: 2
E: 0

2 names.. Both easy.

Johnljones7443
04-16-2007, 08:15 PM
E-6/9 and Gbsusb9.

Peanut1614
04-16-2007, 08:23 PM
E G# B C#F# for E6/9?
Chord has only E G B D...?
I think im right in saying thats wrong... :P

Johnljones7443
04-16-2007, 08:25 PM
I didn't say E6/9, I said E-6/9. Read: E MINOR SIX ADD NINE.

F# - 9
C# - 6
G - b3
E - 1
B - 5
E - 1

hurlyz
04-16-2007, 08:26 PM
E: 3
B: 3
G: 0
D: 2
A: 2
E: 0

2 names.. Both easy.It was justin fraser's turn... not yours! Please wait for your turn... You'll probably get warned for this! (I can't do it but mods can :p: )


As for the chord, it's probably G6 and Em7 :)


E-6/9 and Gbsusb9.How the hell did you come up with that??

Johnljones7443
04-16-2007, 08:28 PM
^Oh shit. I read the two highest notes on the second fret. Fuck it. :o

Peanut1614
04-16-2007, 08:29 PM
I didn't say E6/9, I said E-6/9. Read: E MINOR SIX ADD NINE.

F# - 9
C# - 6
G - b3
E - 1
B - 5
E - 1

Are we looking at the same chord? It should be

3 - G - b3
3 - D - 7
0 - G - b3
2 - E - 1
2 - B - 5
0 - E - 1

EDIT: Hurlyz correct and wtf i nailed his question my go??

justin_fraser
04-16-2007, 08:30 PM
It was justin fraser's turn... not yours! Please wait for your turn... You'll probably get warned for this! (I can't do it but mods can :p: )


As for the chord, it's probably G6 and Em7 :)


How the hell did you come up with that??

:haha

It wasnt my turn, and I kind of screwed up as well. I thought that fenderfrk10 got it right because i didnt see peanuts post, which really wasnt even 100% right, close, but not quite. So it was peanuts turn though cause I gave him (unknowingly :p: ) the go ahead.

EDIT: and peanut just confirmed hurlyzs answer so your up karim.

Peanut1614
04-16-2007, 08:33 PM
Ah i apologise! was it i put VI instead of vi? Sorry im new to the chord progression thing i forget to put that for a minor i think it is? I've just checked back to see that now :P So hurlyz your go to keep it moving?

EDIT: Can someone answer me about this post lol it was a question is the small letters signifiying a minor chord? ie, vi is a minor VI is a major?

VR2005
04-16-2007, 08:36 PM
Yep, Hurlyz can just go.

hurlyz
04-16-2007, 08:37 PM
EDIT: Hurl correct and wtd i nailed his question my go??Nope... He said fenderfrk10 nailed it... He posted before you!

And you didn't even get it right loll... you said I-V-VI-IV while it was I-V-vi-IV... not a BIG difference but still wrong! :p:

Anyways it's not a big deal! :)



I will write a few chords, and you will have to tell me the notes that compose them, as well as the function they have in the chord (ie third, fifth, flat 7th, etc.)!

A°7
EbΔ9
G#ø
Balt
F9#11

Note: You've gotta get them ALL right to get "the turn"... and if you don't know what the symbols mean, google them because I've put them intentionnally :)

Johnljones7443
04-16-2007, 08:43 PM
A°7: A (1) - C (b3) - Eb (b5) - G (bb7)
EbΔ9: E (1) - G# (3) - B (5) - D# (7) - F# (9)
G#ø: G# (1) - B (b3) - D (b5) - F# (b7)
Balt: B (1) - D# (3) - F (5) - Fx (#5) - A (b7) - C (b9) - Cx (#9)
F9#11: F (1) - A (3) - C (5) - Eb (b7) - G (9) - B (#11)

hurlyz
04-16-2007, 08:46 PM
A°7: A (1) - C (b3) - Eb (b5) - G (bb7)
EbΔ9: E (1) - G# (3) - B (5) - D# (7) - F# (9)
G#ø: G# (1) - B (b3) - D (b5) - F# (b7)
Balt: B (1) - D# (3) - F (5) - Fx (#5) - A (b7) - C (b9) - Cx (#9)
F9#11: F (1) - A (3) - C (5) - Eb (b7) - G (9) - B (#11):cheers:

Your turn.

Peanut1614
04-16-2007, 08:53 PM
I posted at 1:05 Fender at 1:06 :P Although yes i got it wrong lol!

A°7 - A - 1st, C# - 3rd, E - 5th, G - b7 Dimished?

EbΔ9 - Never seen this before and google is a pile of crap for it :( But ill try.. Eb 1st, G 3rd, A b5th, C#b7th, F 9th

G#ø - G# 1st- B b3- D b5- F# b7

Balt - I was under the impression you could alter the 5th of 9th for this so it could have many answers? But anythis this is B(b5) - B 1st, D# 3rd, F b5.

F9#11 - F 1st , A 3rd, C 5th, D# b7th, G 9th, B #11th

These are probably wrong but meh...

EDIT: Sorry hadnt seen previous posts. And could someone explain Δ and ø to me properly please? ø Is dimished b7 i think...?

hurlyz
04-16-2007, 09:00 PM
A diminshed 7th(root, minor 3, diminshed 5 , Diminished 7th) so then its A, C E F#)Not F#... Gb! It's a bb7 dude.. not a 6 :p:

---EDIT---
Rofl, he deleted his post because he saw that John aldready got it :)
His answers were still good thought... apart from the Gb that he wrote as F#... which is enharmonic but it's good because it doesn't have the same function! :o

hurlyz
04-16-2007, 09:02 PM
And could someone explain Δ and ø to me properly please? ø Is dimished b7 i think...?Δ means maj7... so a Δ9 (maj9) chord is composed of 1 3 5 7 9!

ø means half-diminished... 1 b3 b5 b7 :)
It's also often written as m7b5 ;)

Peanut1614
04-16-2007, 09:13 PM
and ° is 1, b3, b5, bb7?? Why not use 6 instead?

mexican_shred
04-16-2007, 09:16 PM
Not F#... Gb! It's a bb7 dude.. not a 6 :p:

---EDIT---
Rofl, he deleted his post because he saw that John aldready got it :)
His answers were still good thought... apart from the Gb that he wrote as F#... which is enharmonic but it's good because it doesn't have the same function! :o
yea two people ahead of me. Enharmonic blah. i only care about that in augmented 6th chords : P. plus i was writing form the poitn of view from the major key.

hurlyz
04-16-2007, 09:30 PM
and ° is 1, b3, b5, bb7?? Why not use 6 instead?° is 1 b3 b5. °7 is 1 b3 b5 bb7... which is what you probably wanted to say!

As for the bb7, it is written as so because it is a diminished 7th.. not a 6! It sounds the same but it's not the same thing! Maybe John can explain more about it but what I know is that it's a diminished 7th chord so it OBVIOUSLY has to have a 7th somewhere.. right?? :)

mexican_shred
04-16-2007, 09:33 PM
^correct. its basically semantics

Peanut1614
04-17-2007, 08:46 AM
° is 1 b3 b5. °7 is 1 b3 b5 bb7... which is what you probably wanted to say!


Lol yeh sorry thats what I meant.

^correct. its basically semantics


Lol sounds like its got something to do with Jews :p: anyway ill stop bothering you with questions and let John have his go :)

Johnljones7443
04-17-2007, 10:19 AM
Δ means maj7... so a Δ9 (maj9) chord is composed of 1 3 5 7 9!

Δ is only used to notate a major seventh chord, or the tonic chord of the major scale. Whether that's maj7, maj9, maj13 and so forth. So for Cmaj9, you'd still use CΔ, not CΔ9. Cmaj13 would be CΔ, not CΔ13. The way you differentiate between them is by of course looking at the voicing provided, if there isn't one, you're better of just writing Cmaj9 if you want the reader to know the 9th is present. While Δ does mean maj7, I've commonly seen it used to notate 6/9 chords, add9 chords and various others, in that case it simply notates that the chord is the I tonic chord, the same way a G9 voicing would be notated as Gsus to notate the V chord, or Cmaj13#11 would be called CΔ#11 or C Lydian - these names are simply shorthand that give you the function of the chord. Summed up, you wouldn't write Cmaj9 as CΔ9.

Name the implied chord in each bar. (One chord for each bar - even though there are four chords in bar 2, they imply a certain tonality, so I'm only looking for one name).

:cheers:

elvenkindje
04-17-2007, 11:04 AM
About why diminished chords use a bb7 rather than a 6: A diminished chord is just a bunch of minor thirds stapled on top of eachother (this is also why a diminished chord has 4 roots) and we all know that any 7 is a third above any 5. A 6 wouldn't be a third above the 5, therefore we use bb7 instead of 6.

1 - b3: Minor third
b3 - b5: Minor third
b5 - bb7: Minor third

While b5 - 6: Augmented second.

:cheers:

ihaterap101
04-17-2007, 11:44 AM
im not sure about this because the the chord is 124, but im gonna take a guess. is it C diminished for the first one?

and for the third one is it C augmented Add9?

Johnljones7443
04-17-2007, 02:15 PM
^No & no, sorry. Hint: It's a very common chord progression.

Cyberbob
04-17-2007, 02:30 PM
I'm seeing a kind of Am-F-G progression, I think.
Am11 for the first one?
G9 for the last one?
I'm looking into a F for the second one, but having some trouble, some notes are just throwing me off. F13 perhaps?

Johnljones7443
04-17-2007, 02:33 PM
A-11 is good for the first one. A-7 would have done, I'm just looking for an implied tonality here, not full extended names. F and F13 are both incorrect for the second one. G9 is good for the last one, G9, G7 and Gsus are all acceptable.

So far, you have A-7 - ? - Gsus, or ii - ? - I. The second chord should be pretty obvious..

Cyberbob
04-17-2007, 03:02 PM
If it's obvious I hope I'm right... :cry:

D9?

Johnljones7443
04-17-2007, 03:04 PM
^No. Close.

fenderfrk10
04-17-2007, 03:10 PM
Am7 - D7alt - Gsus

Johnljones7443
04-17-2007, 03:28 PM
^Read the rules my friend.

Fenderfrk01 - D7alt is incorrect. It is an altered dominated chord, but it is not built from the altered mode.

fenderfrk10
04-17-2007, 03:54 PM
how did i disobey the rules?:confused:

Johnljones7443
04-17-2007, 03:56 PM
^Haha, not you. Some guy posted a chord inbetween us and must have deleted his post. :cheers:

elvenkindje
04-17-2007, 04:31 PM
As if guys get the chance to delete their posts when teh mods are around.

Random guess: D7#11?

Johnljones7443
04-17-2007, 04:41 PM
^D7#11 omgz u r n00b. Nah, not D lyd dom. All the chords in the 2nd bar are from one scale, and all of them imply the same tonality. I'm just looking for the shorthand name for any chord that might imply that tonality.

elvenkindje
04-17-2007, 04:44 PM
Who are you calling noob? I didn't even look at the sheet, just followed your regular thought pattern..

:( SORRY

hurlyz
04-17-2007, 06:12 PM
Am7 - D7b9 - Gsus :)

Johnljones7443
04-17-2007, 06:15 PM
^Finally. The bar completely defines H/W dim harmony. _7b9 is shorthand for any chord built from the H/W scale. Like I've said, notation usually just implies a tonality and scale, not a specific voicing, one of the voicings in the second bar is Daddb9, but you'd just call it D7b9, because that's the tonality it implies.

Go Karim. :heart:

...just followed your regular thought pattern..

:( SORRY

Pity you didn't do that when I was calling you down with quads. :heart:

hurlyz
04-17-2007, 06:22 PM
Name what mode those chords go with!

_6/9
_m7b9
_7
_13#11
_maj11
_m7b5

fenderfrk10
04-17-2007, 06:27 PM
Just a guess...

1. Ionian
2. Phrygian
3. Mixolydian
4. Lydian Dominant
5. Ionian
6. Locrian

but I'm not sure if you're looking for the specific mode associated with each chord. If so, then I have no idea (except for a few)

hurlyz
04-17-2007, 06:45 PM
^ That's good!

fenderfrk10
04-17-2007, 06:51 PM
someone can have my go.

i have a research paper to do

mexican_shred
04-17-2007, 06:53 PM
ill go. just give me a minute

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v409/allstar1234/pic.jpg



name of the 4 chords. Classical names including inversion etc. and cadence

all in key of c

AdamDK
04-18-2007, 01:23 PM
Sorry to go off topic here, but oh well. Do we have the old NAME THAT CHORD thread around? Coz' perhaps move it in the Archieved Threads forum, seeing as it was so good.

psychodelia
04-18-2007, 01:31 PM
Fr+6 *stumped* I64 V I

Perfect Authentic Cadence.

Your second chord looks pretty odd.... D Ab Db F#. No idea, I'm afraid.

Peanut1614
04-18-2007, 07:51 PM
D Ab Db F# - Dmaj7b5?
D (1) F#(3) G# (b5) C# (7)
Thats just from what psychodelia said the notes are, I cant remember how to read bass cleff lol.

Johnljones7443
04-18-2007, 08:01 PM
^G# would be the #4, not b5. You'd name it as DΔ#11, or D Lydian, never Dmaj7b5.

mexican_shred
04-18-2007, 10:30 PM
Fr+6 *stumped* I64 V I

Perfect Authentic Cadence.

Your second chord looks pretty odd.... D Ab Db F#. No idea, I'm afraid.
oops i forgot to put a a natural sign on the second F. But ill give it to you. but it seems Jones got the obscure misprinted chord lol

The second chord was supposed to be the second inversion of a Db major. so in this case Neopalatin 6th/ b II chord

st.stephen
04-18-2007, 10:40 PM
Yeah sorry guys about getting the right chord and then not coming on for a while. It was kind of dumb, but I'm glad I got the chord right cuz it means I'm getting better! Hooray for me! And hurry up with the next chord!

Johnljones7443
04-19-2007, 08:13 AM
The second chord was supposed to be the second inversion of a Db major. so in this case Neopalatin 6th/ b II chord

The second inversion would be N6/4, not N6. 6 is used to notate first inversion, and is the inversion the N chord is usually played in.

psychodelia
04-19-2007, 12:10 PM
I'll pass to john, since I have class and can't think of anything particularly interesting at the moment.

mexican_shred
04-19-2007, 04:26 PM
The second inversion would be N6/4, not N6. 6 is used to notate first inversion, and is the inversion the N chord is usually played in.
:p: meant first .

Page&HammettFan
04-19-2007, 09:47 PM
Sorry for the n00b question (though they are welcomed), but what is a Neopalatin inversion?

psychodelia
04-19-2007, 09:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29 Read to get inverted chords.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neapolitan_chord Read on the Neopolitan chord.

To summarize, a Neopolitan in a given key is a major chord, with the flatted second of the key as the root.

So, in C major, the second is D, and the flat second is therefore D flat. The Neopolitan in C would contain the notes of a Db major triad, which are Db F Ab.

A Neopolitan chord is also usually in first inversion. This means that the third of the chord is the lowest note. So, in the key of C, we have our Neopolitan. The third of the Neopolitan is F, so that is the bass note, and the Db and Ab would be above it.


If this is confusing, there should also be some other threads around on Neopolitans, if you use the search bar.

Mikeoman
04-20-2007, 12:00 AM
... can I say something...?

... you people are INSANE! I mean, where in the bloody world do you learn all this stuff? It's just... aye, makes my head spin....

Johnljones7443
04-20-2007, 08:24 AM
:p: meant first .

Ah sorry mate.

4 chords. 2 chords per bar. Name them and give them a function.

Stash Jam
04-20-2007, 09:25 AM
Could be way off, I hardly ever read bass clef but here goes...

Cmaj9 - A7 - Dm7 - G9

I - V/ii - ii - V

Johnljones7443
04-20-2007, 09:26 AM
^Excellent.

Stash Jam
04-20-2007, 10:10 AM
Name each chord & the scale they are all derived from



E—5--------------6-----
B—6---6-----8----8-----
G—7---7-----7----6-----
D—7---7-----8----7-----
A—5---X-----7-----------
E ----6------------------

Johnljones7443
04-20-2007, 10:19 AM
D-
BbΔ

A7b9

All from D harmonic minor.

Stash Jam
04-20-2007, 10:39 AM
^right on :cool:

Johnljones7443
04-20-2007, 11:12 AM
Eø - Aalt - Ab7#11 - Galt - C7

Using tritone substitution, write out the above chord progression in 7 more unique ways. You only need to change the 3 chords in the middle.

I know I've done this kinda thing before, but I'm short on ideas, so it'll have to do, ha ha - and it'll still be interesting to see how the people who didn't see it last time get on with it. (Karim - you're exempt from this one, ha ha).

sirpsycho85
04-20-2007, 12:46 PM
ummm....i guess the tritone sub for Aalt is D#alt, for Ab7#11 is D7#11, and for G alt is C#alt.

So now you take those and you can sub in seven ways, changing:

only 1st
only 2nd
only 3rd
1st & 2nd
1st and 3rd
2nd and 3rd
all three

Johnljones7443
04-20-2007, 01:40 PM
^No, the TT sub for Aalt isn't D#alt, the TT sub for Ab7#11 isn't D7#11 and the TT sub for Galt isn't C#alt. TT subs for _alt chords and _7#11 are both in the same scale.

Edit: As in _alt = _7#11 from the same (melodic minor) scale. So if we have Balt from the altered mode in C mel minor, the TT sub is F7#11 from F lyd-dom (also from C mel minor... ). So basically, _alt subs to _7#11 and 7#11 subs to _alt within the same scale.

You're right in the format you wrote, but that's slacking - so you have to write it out, ha ha.

hurlyz
04-20-2007, 05:26 PM
Eø - Aalt - Ab7#11 - Galt - C7

Using tritone substitution, write out the above chord progression in 7 more unique ways. You only need to change the 3 chords in the middle.

I know I've done this kinda thing before, but I'm short on ideas, so it'll have to do, ha ha - and it'll still be interesting to see how the people who didn't see it last time get on with it. (Karim - you're exempt from this one, ha ha).wtf... :(

I saw it and I was like.. huh that's easy! :D

then I saw the " Karim you're exempt from this one " :cry:

Anyways, not a big deal... if nobody gets it after 24h or so, I'll post the answers! :)

Stash Jam
04-20-2007, 06:13 PM
Is this what you're looking for?

Eb7#11 - Ab7#11 - Galt

Aalt - Dalt - Galt

Aalt - Ab7#11 - Db7#11

Eb7#11 - Ab7#11 - Db7#11

Aalt - Dalt - Db7#11

Eb7#11 - Dalt - Galt

Eb7#11 - Dalt - Db7#11

sirpsycho85
04-20-2007, 07:21 PM
^No, the TT sub for Aalt isn't D#alt, the TT sub for Ab7#11 isn't D7#11 and the TT sub for Galt isn't C#alt. TT subs for _alt chords and _7#11 are both in the same scale.

Edit: As in _alt = _7#11 from the same (melodic minor) scale. So if we have Balt from the altered mode in C mel minor, the TT sub is F7#11 from F lyd-dom (also from C mel minor... ). So basically, _alt subs to _7#11 and 7#11 subs to _alt within the same scale.

You're right in the format you wrote, but that's slacking - so you have to write it out, ha ha.


hmm, so let's see if i can learn this, please help me out here.

the A alt scale is A Bb C Db Eb F G A...i guess for our purposes is A Bb B# C# Eb E# G A.

Aalt contained the notes A C# G and possibly Eb, E#, Bb, B#.

So Eb7#11 would be the sub for Aalt. It contains the notes Eb G Bb Db A, all of which are found in the A alt scale.

What I thought was the answer, let's say Ebalt, contains: Eb G Db and possibly Bbb, B, Fbb, F. Not all of these are found in the alt scale, so we don't use this.

If this made sense, then let me ask another question. Why in particular do we use the #11 to sub for the alt and vice versa, instead of another chord drawn up from that scale? If we were substituting for an A7 chord, the resultant chord would not contain the note A itself, but the Eb7#11 does. So basically, I'm asking for an explanation or resource to learn about substitutions for extended and altered chords in general, and why they work.

Johnljones7443
04-21-2007, 10:32 AM
^The reason we use the _7#11 chord as a substitution for the _alt chord is because they both resolve in the same way. Alt chord tends to resolve down a 5th, up a half step and down a major third, _7#11 chords on the other hand tend to resolve down a half step, up a 4th and up a whole step. Now, if we use A7alt and Eb7#11 as an example.. the strongest resolution for each chord is to exactly the same chord.

A7alt down a 5th - DΔ
Eb7#11 down a half step - DΔ

A7alt up a half step - BbΔ
Eb7#11 down a 4th - BbΔ

A7alt down a major third - FΔ
Eb7#11 up a whole step - FΔ

Each chords strongest resolution is to the same chord as the _7alt a tritone away. Another reason is the nature of chords built from the melodic minor scale, they are all interchangeable with one another. Play a standard voicing of C-Δ over a C bass note, then play the same voicing over a D bass note. The resulting chord will feel and function like a Dsusb9 chord, over an E bass - you get a lydian augmented feel and an EbΔ#5 chord.

This works for all 6 functioning chords in the 'key' of C melodic minor, C-Δ, Dsusb9, EbΔ#5, F7#11, Aø and B7alt - because all the chords are in essence the 'same' chord, they all give the essence of the same sound - because the notes used to build them are not found in any other scale. The root, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 9th when played together define the 'key' of that particular melodic minor scale. The reason we have no G chord in there is because the G chord built from C mel minor is normally substituted with a chord from the melodic minor scale a minor third away, so instead of G7 from C mel minor, G7alt from Ab mel minor is used.

So if A7alt and Eb7#11 are both the 'same' chord - they both imply the same tonality and resolve strongest to the same places, which is why we use them both interchangeably. Instead of substituting A7alt for Eb7alt, because Eb7alt won't imply the same tonality (it would imply an Ab melodic minor sound) and it will not resolve as smoothly as it's _7#11 cousin (it would want to resolve to AbΔ, Ab-Δ, EΔ etc..)

And yes Stash Jam, you're up mate.

:cheers:

Stash Jam
04-21-2007, 01:15 PM
soloing over an Am13 chord, you can use 3 different minor pentatonic scales (based off 3 different Am13 chord tones)

Name them

Johnljones7443
04-21-2007, 01:37 PM
Am pent off the root.
Em pent off the 5th.
Bm pent off the 9th.

sirpsycho85
04-21-2007, 02:15 PM
awesome john, that is extremely helpful. i'm surprised you're not a moderator...yet :cheers:

just a small clarification and question....you said for the G chord we use that from Ab. That's is a major third from C. Is this what you meant or is the problem elsewhere (or am I just confuse). Also, is Mark Levine's book a good source for all this jazz harmony stuff, i've been meaning to buy it because all the reviews are spectacular.

Johnljones7443
04-21-2007, 02:31 PM
^Right, a major third is what I meant to type. I was confused there with the iiø - Valt progression built from melodic minor where each chord is taken from the melodic minor scale a minor third away (In C that'd be Dø from F melodic minor, G7alt from Ab melodic minor), so just a mistake on my part there, but you're correct.

Yes, Mark Levines book is the only book you need to buy if you want to learn more stuff like this, he explains what we've just talked about but in further detail and with examples in his book - definitely recommend it to you mate.

:cheers:

Stash Jam
04-21-2007, 02:40 PM
Am pent off the root.
Em pent off the 5th.
Bm pent off the 9th.

You're up. +1 for Mark Levine's book as well :)

Johnljones7443
04-21-2007, 06:20 PM
Name all three chords - and tell me the name of the chord (you can include a piano voicing aswell if you want) that often replaces the highlighted chord to provide a certain motion.

:cheers:

Peanut1614
04-21-2007, 07:10 PM
Jesus this threads alot harder than the old one :( I preferd just the chords! Can you refresh my memory on reading bass cleff?

Johnljones7443
04-21-2007, 08:06 PM
^Sure, check this pic (http://www.free-online-piano-lessons.com/images/StaffGuide.gif) if you're having trouble.

mexican_shred
04-21-2007, 08:11 PM
Fm11 with no 5ht

F7Alt no third -> goes to B7#11?

D# 7sus4?

Johnljones7443
04-21-2007, 08:47 PM
No, no, no and no.

You have the root of the second chord correct when you say Falt, and it is an altered dominant built on F, but not a chord built from the altered scale - and thus, B7#11 is incorrect aswell. (Hint: the substitution is not a tritone substitution).

mexican_shred
04-21-2007, 08:53 PM
ah whoops. Im just used to saying altered when i see F7(b5 , b9)

ok lemme try again 1st chord is a Ab Maj 13 no 3rd?

3rd is Absus2sus4?

not sure abotu teh substation

Johnljones7443
04-21-2007, 09:00 PM
F7(b5, b9) is correct (I'd call it F7b9#11 because it avoids confusion with the altered scale), but it's built from the H/W scale, so calling it Falt would be incorrect. You can just call it F7b9 for shorthand, which implies it's built from the H/W scale.

AbΔ is correct for the first one, and G#sus2sus4 is incorrect for the last one. The last one should be pretty easy considering the chord before it is F7b9 :p:

mexican_shred
04-21-2007, 09:05 PM
i really have no idea but this will be my last guess of Db6/9 no third?

Johnljones7443
04-21-2007, 09:08 PM
^Nope, sorry. :sad:

mexican_shred
04-22-2007, 01:08 AM
Aw damn. Well i set up half of it. Someone should be able to go from there *cough* Hurlzy*cough*
dang you and your b9 chords !

i lied my last guess is Bb min 7 no 5th. i should have known. its the progression thats used in black orpheus and fly me to the moon.

Stash Jam
04-22-2007, 03:23 AM
AbΔ - F7b9#11 - Bbm11

not too sure about the second part but maybe you're looking for

AbΔ - Adim7 - Bbm11 (for chromatic motion)

(ps, how do you type in the proper symbols?, I had to copy/paste the symbol for the Ab chord ;) )

Johnljones7443
04-22-2007, 09:34 AM
^Absolutely spot on. I get the Δ symbol from the character map in Windows, ha ha.

Stash Jam
04-22-2007, 05:05 PM
Ok, here's an easy one

Name the specific scale (i.e. name the root note as well) used for the melody in The Simpsons theme song

mexican_shred
04-22-2007, 05:07 PM
Root is C

C lydian

Stash Jam
04-22-2007, 05:10 PM
Yep, figured someone would get that quickly. You're up :cheers:

mexican_shred
04-22-2007, 05:16 PM
3 x3 4 4 4

x10 9 10 11 11

8 x 8 8 6 x

10 x 10 10 9 x
[reads as (EADGBE)]


tell me the name of the chords, and a scale that can be used to play over them

sirpsycho85
04-23-2007, 12:23 AM
^Absolutely spot on. I get the Δ symbol from the character map in Windows, ha ha.

i know this is not meant to be a question thread, but god...can you possibly explain this answer? I'm absolutely lost as to the first two chords there...why you can call it a chord w/o a third instead of calling something else the root, same on the second chord.

hurlyz
04-23-2007, 10:21 AM
Someone should be able to go from there *cough* Hurlzy*cough*Haha thanks man! :D :D

3 x3 4 4 4

x10 9 10 11 11

8 x 8 8 6 x

10 x 10 10 9 x
[reads as (EADGBE)]


tell me the name of the chords, and a scale that can be used to play over themAbm/maj13 -> Ab Melodic Minor

Galt -> G Altered Scale

Cm11 -> C Natural Minor

Fm6 -> F Melodic Minor

mexican_shred
04-23-2007, 04:44 PM
^ 1st isnt what im looking for

2nd ill take
3rd-correct
4th, is correct but not what i was looking for. So 2.5/4.

and i guess i forgot to clarify myself but when i said scales i meant one that could go over all 4 chords. such as lets say Mixolydian(#9, b9) or alter dominant etc.

Stash Jam
04-23-2007, 07:20 PM
G7#5b9
G7#5#9
Cm11
Dm7b5

I can't think of a scale that would adequately cover all of those chords though :confused:
I'd stick with G altered over the first two chords & C aeolian over the last two...looking at all the chord tones you get
C D Eb F G Ab Bb B, So it's like C aeolian with the leading tone added (I guess you could say aeolian bebop or something :eek: though I've never heard that name used before)

mexican_shred
04-23-2007, 07:41 PM
^ correct!. alt first then switch to . also F blues using the other unused notes at connectors

Johnljones7443
04-23-2007, 07:43 PM
^You said one scale? :sad: Also, what is Mixolydian(#9, b9)? Never heard of it. I assume it's 1 - b2 - #2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 - b7, but from where is it built?

mexican_shred
04-23-2007, 07:48 PM
its basically that . you dont play teh regular 2nd. Lets say i have a song in key of Bb major(this case there is no greater love) but my chords are Bb Ma7, Eb7 Ab7, G7 C7. that last chord in order to make it fit i would use the b9 #9 mixolydian. over the G7 i could play mixo b 13. And over the Ab7(and Eb7) i would use A alt Dominant or Eb Lydian b7 scale.My teacher taught me that you can alter the mixo scale to make it fit. He went to Berkelee and got a jazz Degree and Music Theory Degree. Dont know how credible that is now, but he graduated in the early 80's

Stash Jam
04-23-2007, 11:25 PM
Name 4 Different Dominant 7 chords that can be derived from this dim7 chord shape (by altering only 1 note from the dim7 chord to make a _7 chord, then alter a different note from the dim7 to make a different _7, etc etc)
each resulting _7 chord will have 3 common tones with the dim7 chord shown below

e --7--
b --6--
g --7--
d --6--
a
e

hurlyz
04-23-2007, 11:54 PM
I didn't find any dominant 7 chords but I did find 4 x diminished 7ths chords!

G#dim7 , Ddim7 , Fdim7 and Bdim7 :)

---EDIT---
Oh I think I didn't understand well the question... well, if I understood correctly.. you're asking for 4 different dom7 chords that share 3 tones with the dim7 chords...

if so.. they're G7 , Db7 , E7 and Bb7 :)

Stash Jam
04-24-2007, 12:15 AM
---EDIT---
Oh I think I didn't understand well the question... well, if I understood correctly.. you're asking for 4 different dom7 chords that share 3 tones with the dim7 chords...

if so.. they're G7 , Db7 , E7 and Bb7 :)

:cheers: Yeah thats what I was looking for. I'll show what concept I was using since it was a little hard to explain it in the form of a question ;)

Here are the 4 Dom7 Voicings you get by simply altering one note from this dim7 shape

e --7--
b --6--
g --7--
d --6--
a
e



G7 Db7 E7 Bb7

e --7-------7-------7-------6--
b --6-------6-------5-------6--
g --7-------6-------7-------7--
d --5-------6-------6-------6--
a
e

hurlyz
04-24-2007, 12:34 AM
:cheers: Yeah thats what I was looking for. I'll show what concept I was using since it was a little hard to explain it in the form of a question ;)I don't know if you noticed but the note you were changing always was the root... When you lower a dim7's root by a half-step, it turns into a dom7 :)



What would you do if you wanted a ii-V-I progression to turn into a chromatically descending root note progression?? :) (dunno if I was clear :confused: )

Easy question but I had no other idea :o

Stash Jam
04-24-2007, 12:41 AM
I don't know if you noticed but the note you were changing always was the root... When you lower a dim7's root by a half-step, it turns into a dom7 :)

Easy question but I had no other idea :o


Yeah I know, just showing it in case some beginners or whoever may not have realized that yet

For your question ... Use tritone substitution

Dm7-Db7-Cmaj7

hurlyz
04-24-2007, 12:50 AM
^ yea that's right! Your turn :)

:cheers:

Stash Jam
04-24-2007, 09:20 AM
Name 3 characteristics of secondary dominant (V7/ii V7/iii etc.) chords (in relation to the 'primary' key they are being used in)

sirpsycho85
04-25-2007, 01:11 AM
They are not diatonic to the primary key (so V7 is not a secondary dominant).
They are the V of a major or minor chord in the key, not diminished.
The most common one is V/V...don't really know if this is what you're looking for.

elvenkindje
04-25-2007, 02:39 AM
Why can't they be the V of a diminished chord in the key? :(

That's a serious question, btw.

Stash Jam
04-25-2007, 09:37 AM
They are not diatonic to the primary key (so V7 is not a secondary dominant).


Correct

They are the V of a major or minor chord in the key, not diminished.


Correct, but expand on that a bit. what do the root notes of all secondary dominants have in common with the primary key? This should help answer elvenkindje's question too

The most common one is V/V...don't really know if this is what you're looking for.


Well the 3rd characteristic I'm looking for is where the secondary dominants are expected to resolve.

Combined these are the 3 main characteristics of secondary dominants as described in the Berklee harmony book

sirpsycho85
04-25-2007, 11:50 AM
umm, i guess all the root notes are part of the scale of the primary key?

And they resolve down a fifth, because they act as the V of the chord they are a secondary dominant to. As far as voice leading, they resolve by the same rules as a regular V-I.

(although, i think i have heard that you try to treat the leading tone of the primary key as still going up if possible, if it is present in the secondary dominant...although this i think is likely to happen anyway. ex: in C, V of vi is E, so the B in that chord resolves up to C in am.)

Stash Jam
04-25-2007, 12:20 PM
You got it :cheers:

1. They are expected to resolve down a perfect fifth
2. They are non-diatonic structures (at least 1 chord tone isn't in the primary key)
3. They are built from a diatonic root (their root note is in the primary key)

edit for elvenkindje...If you took a secondary dominant from a diminished chord, the root note will not be diatonic, in C major, the "V/vii" would be F#7. They aren't used b/c for example F#7 > Bdim doesn't function as a cadence, the Bdim is too unstable to sound like it's been resolved. On the other hand, all secondary dominants of major & minor chords do have a strong V-I or V-i cadence

elvenkindje
04-25-2007, 05:06 PM
G7 - F#7 - Bdim - E7 - Am would still make a godly cadence in the end.

But I see your point, I wasn't thinking clear about it. Thank you for explaining :)

sirpsycho85
04-25-2007, 10:03 PM
oh my, I jumped in between the jazz questions and have an opportunity to try and stump you guys.

--7---
--8---
--7---
--7---
--7---
------

Using the rules of atonal theory:
1) What is the prime form of this pitch class set?
2) What is the interval vector for this pitch class set?
Bonus: What is a nickname of this chord?

rockguitar84
04-26-2007, 04:15 PM
oh my, I jumped in between the jazz questions and have an opportunity to try and stump you guys.

--7---
--8---
--7---
--7---
--7---
------

Using the rules of atonal theory:
1) What is the prime form of this pitch class set?
2) What is the interval vector for this pitch class set?
Bonus: What is a nickname of this chord?

Emin7add4 I'm assuming
1. Pitch Class (4,9,2,7,11)
2.<011020>
Bonus: Parallel Fourths?

mexican_shred
04-26-2007, 04:55 PM
^if its an add 4 then its an eminor 11.

sirpsycho85
04-26-2007, 05:00 PM
Emin7add4 I'm assuming
1. Pitch Class (4,9,2,7,11)
2.<011020>
Bonus: Parallel Fourths?


nope to all. I actually didn't even ask for the regular name, but I do believe Em11 is the correct one. The pitch class numbers are correct, but it is not in prime form. The vector is wrong and the nickname, if you've heard it, is not the one I am refering to.

mexican_shred
04-26-2007, 05:13 PM
is the nick name a 9sus 4 chord?

sirpsycho85
04-26-2007, 05:40 PM
The nickname will be something like "Hendrix chord" is for a _#9, and it's a bonus because it's just a cool fact I read on wikipedia and has nothing to do with theory. It's not the chord name, just nickname.

hurlyz
04-27-2007, 05:36 PM
oh my, I jumped in between the jazz questions and have an opportunity to try and stump you guys.

--7---
--8---
--7---
--7---
--7---
------

Using the rules of atonal theory:
1) What is the prime form of this pitch class set?
2) What is the interval vector for this pitch class set?
Bonus: What is a nickname of this chord?Well it seems nobody knows the answer :p:

Can you tell us what they were? :)
(still gonna be your turn after... I guess)

mexican_shred
04-27-2007, 07:14 PM
my random guess for its nickname is the tristan chord. but im guessing thats wrong

sirpsycho85
04-28-2007, 02:14 AM
--7---
--8---
--7---
--7---
--7---
------

Using the rules of atonal theory:
1) What is the prime form of this pitch class set?
2) What is the interval vector for this pitch class set?
Bonus: What is a nickname of this chord?

1) The prime form is (0, 2, 4, 7, 9).
2) The interval vector is <0, 3, 2, 1, 4, 0>
The nickname is the "So What" chord, because of it's use by Bill Evans on that tune.

To figure out prime form, mark the pitch class numbers off around a clock. You try and find the shortest arc that contains all the pitch classes, and you go in the order that makes the numbers smaller. It's a bit confusing to explain w/o diagrams.

For the interval vector, it is simply counting the number of each type of interval class. Remember an interval class is the shortest distance between the notes in either direction, so between an E and a D higher up, we say the interval is 2. The pitch collection here contains 0 m2/M7, 3 M2/m7, 2 m3/M6, 1 M3/m6, 4 P4/P5, 0 aug4/dim5 (tritone).




NEW QUESTION:

What is pandiatonicism?



For those who care, sirpsycho85 here is currently trying to write a piece for piano and viola that features suspended and pandiatonic harmony with pentatonic and lydian melodies, and i believe it's actually going to be recorded in class which is pretty exciting, so if it happens and you want to hear it, cool.

Johnljones7443
04-28-2007, 09:46 AM
Damn I should study more classical theory, these questions totally throw me off, we need to get Cor in here to answer them, ha ha.

I know pandiatonicism is using a diatonic scale without strictly adhering to the notes/chords to serve as a means of resolution or function. We did examples of this in music class about 4 years ago, which inevitably got me into Stravinsky (his use of it is amazing).

Also, I'd love to hear it if you ever get it posted up.

:cheers:

mexican_shred
04-28-2007, 05:30 PM
^isnt it a bit similar to picardys third principle where u change the 3rd,6th or7th of a chord?

Johnljones7443
04-28-2007, 06:27 PM
^I don't think so, Picardys third principle involves going outside of a diatonic key to change the third of a minor triad to a major third in either a perfect or plagal cadence, pandiatonicism strictly adheres to a diatonic melody/harmony, but bears no adheration to function or resolution.

As far as I know, both are completely different concepts, the only similarity they have is neither allows a tonic/tonal center to be firmly established.

sirpsycho85
04-29-2007, 12:20 AM
john is on, that's right.

I'm pretty sure picardy's thirds can still let you establish a firm tonic, it's often only with the very last chord in a piece that the change to major is made. And yeah, pandiatonicism is so much fun to work with, I love the fact that the first two chords in what i'm writing are C and gm, and it still sounds like classical music.

Hey john, if it isn't too much to ask, you posted a question before to which the answer was:

AbΔ - F7b9#11 - Bbm11

Can you possibly explain the naming of some of these chords, especially why you can name a chord with a missing third when other names are there that have thirds...

Peanut1614
04-29-2007, 01:35 PM
AbΔ

I was having a disscussion with my girlfriends dad who teaches music at Degree level, nd he says that symbol is meant only for maj7 yet you seem to use it for all _maj chords... ie..maj9. This is just what i remember you putting btw i may be wrong, please correct me if I am about what you said.

hurlyz
04-29-2007, 09:57 PM
AbΔ

I was having a disscussion with my girlfriends dad who teaches music at Degree level, nd he says that symbol is meant only for maj7 yet you seem to use it for all _maj chords... ie..maj9. This is just what i remember you putting btw i may be wrong, please correct me if I am about what you said.Δ does mean _maj7 but a _maj7 and a _maj9 shares the same function so I jazz players write all the maj chords as _Δ and just know that they have to put a chord that is a _maj7 or _maj9 or etc. depending on the context. :)

Peanut1614
04-30-2007, 11:44 AM
Δ does mean _maj7 but a _maj7 and a _maj9 shares the same function so I jazz players write all the maj chords as _Δ and just know that they have to put a chord that is a _maj7 or _maj9 or etc. depending on the context. :)

Thanks for clearing that up :)

Okay I think its been 24 hours so ill post an easy one see if some new people can join in!

E
B 3
G
D 1
A 3
E

hurlyz
04-30-2007, 05:59 PM
^ Cmadd9 ?

elvenkindje
05-01-2007, 03:47 AM
Seems correct.

Peanut1614
05-01-2007, 04:05 PM
^ Cmadd9 ?

Yup was based on a common barre to try and get newer people in, guess not :rolleyes:

And its close to 24 hours again so someone post or ill take it soon..

hurlyz
05-01-2007, 05:38 PM
^ Well I give you my turn then! :)

Peanut1614
05-01-2007, 05:46 PM
:)

E 6
B 4
G 3
D 5
A 3
E 3

Have fun!

hurlyz
05-01-2007, 06:09 PM
Cm7 (2nd inversion :p: )

Ænimus Prime
05-02-2007, 03:24 AM
G C G Bb Eb Bb
1 4 b3 b6
Could you possibly call it a Gm13?

elvenkindje
05-02-2007, 04:31 AM
No, you can't.

Johnljones7443
05-02-2007, 07:31 AM
G C G Bb Eb Bb
1 4 b3 b6
Could you possibly call it a Gm13?

m6 and m13 chords do not contain a minor 6th/minor 13th interval.

Peanut1614
05-02-2007, 07:38 AM
Cm7 (2nd inversion :p: )

Hurlyz your go!

hurlyz
05-02-2007, 10:51 AM
hehe... :cheers:

Anyone may take my go actually.. I don't have much time to find a good question to ask at the moment!

If nobody posted until I come back from school, I'll find a question to ask! :)

Peanut1614
05-03-2007, 01:25 PM
OMG this games dying *sob*

E : 0
B : 7
G : 9
D : 7
A : 9
E : 7

elvenkindje
05-03-2007, 03:05 PM
Bsus

rockguitar84
05-03-2007, 06:28 PM
But what about the b7 in there? B7sus, correct?

Johnljones7443
05-03-2007, 07:22 PM
^Bsus is short B7sus4, or B7sus. They all mean the same thing.

hurlyz
05-03-2007, 07:33 PM
yep... A _sus chord can also be named _7sus4 or _7sus and it's composed of 1 4 5 b7 :)

As for the chord, it could be either Am6, Bsus or F#m11 depending on context!

Peanut1614
05-04-2007, 11:57 AM
I was looking for B7sus but Bsus is fine... Elven your up! I like to put the 7 in as it avoids confusion with the 1 4 5 version...

elvenkindje
05-04-2007, 01:28 PM
-------
-9-7-7-
-6-6-4-
-9-8-8-
-7-7-6-
-------

Chord names + progression + key?

psychodelia
05-04-2007, 02:47 PM
C#m7/E, F#7/E, Bmaj7/D#

ii7-V7-Ima7 (With inversions, ii65 - V42 - Ima65)

Key of B

elvenkindje
05-04-2007, 03:10 PM
I love you man!

Go for it

psychodelia
05-04-2007, 03:22 PM
:heart:

Okay, give a progression that modulates from C to B using a common chord.

Rule thingies: all chords must belong to either the key of C or B, and the common chord can be found in both.

The common chord should not be a secondary dominant.

You may reinterpret the spelling of the common chord, in order for it to be in both keys.

Ænimus Prime
05-04-2007, 11:40 PM
C- C Dm Em F G Am Bdim
B- B C#m D#m E F# G#m A#dim

I can't see how that is possible because the keys only share 2 notes, let alone a chord.
So my feeble attempt is:

C Dm E5 B F# B

Yes I know E5 isn't technically a chord.

psychodelia
05-05-2007, 02:23 AM
Good try, not what I'm looking for though.

You're right that the chords just built from the scale do not give any common chords.
However, there are some other chords as well, with special properties.

It's difficult to give any hints without giving an answer, so I'll just say to maybe read through this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_%28music%29

elvenkindje
05-05-2007, 04:42 AM
C - C#m - F# - B

The neopolitan (sp?) minor of the key of C is the ii chord of the key of B. After that, a standard ii-V-I in the key of B.

psychodelia
05-05-2007, 11:47 AM
On the right track for an answer. Your Neopolitan is not the correct type of chord, though; check again on what kind of chord a Neopolitan is, and then come up with a different way of using it as a pivot.

Johnljones7443
05-05-2007, 12:10 PM
D-7 - G7 - C - F#7 - BΔ. I might do something like that.

Is that what you want? C being the tonic chord in C major and the neopolitan chord in B major, where it functions as the tonic going from G7 to C, and as a preparation for the V chord in B.

cheers

psychodelia
05-06-2007, 10:25 PM
Yep, that's one way to do it. You're up!

The other option I was thinking of is a German Augmented sixth/dominant seven common chord. Both ways are handy as quick ways to modulate up or down a half step.

elvenkindje
05-07-2007, 02:23 AM
Could you explain the Na German chord? I haven't heard of it before.

psychodelia
05-07-2007, 02:36 AM
Well, Augmented Sixths are chords containing an augmented sixth degree. The German Augmented Sixth is a chord that enharmonically looks like a dominant. For example, built on Ab, it would be Ab C Eb F#. Change the F# to its enharmonic equivalent Gb, and it's Ab7.

However, the spelling is important, because both Ab and F# in this context probably want to resolve to G: Ab goes down, F# goes up. Augmented sixths can be very good dominant preparations, although the German chord usually has another chord in between, because it's difficult to avoid parallels going directly to the dominant.

An example progression in C: C F AbGer+6 G C.

So, now its use in modulation: reinterpreting a German as a dominant 7, or vice versa.

Let's look in C major. You can have C F G7 as a perfectly good progression. However, you decide to modulate to B. Just reinterpret G7 as the enharmonic G Ger+6, and now you're in B. So, you could have something like: C F G7/Gger+6 F# B.

When modulating up, you reinterpret the first key's German as the new key's dominant.

Example: C F Abger+6/Ab7 Db.

I'll try to look up an example or two if I can find or make them.

elvenkindje
05-07-2007, 03:05 AM
I fail to see how the Abger+6 chord is in the key of C, since that was the original question. I kinda like the chord though :)

Peanut1614
05-07-2007, 07:48 AM
'Rule thingies: all chords must belong to either the key of C or B, and the common chord can be found in both.'

Ah misread your post, the answer was C F Gger+6 F# B i believe not the Ab example...

psychodelia
05-07-2007, 12:08 PM
I fail to see how the Abger+6 chord is in the key of C, since that was the original question. I kinda like the chord though :)

Well, I consider that and the Neopolitan to be chords serving a function specific to that key. It wasn't a very clear set of rules though, and my intentions could have been clearer (the wording was rather misleading/bad). So my apologies on that.

But it is a nice chord, another one that's maybe a little more harmonically interesting is the French augmented sixth. Instead of having the intervals above the bass being major third, perfect fifth, and augmented sixth, it's major third, augmented fourth, augmented sixth. So, in C, it would be Ab C D F#. It sounds pretty cool, to me anyway.

Left_hander_nz
05-08-2007, 04:28 AM
im not sure who's turn...but im pretty sure the 24-hour rule has taken place (if it hasnt scrap my question)

its an easy one

The progression C-G-C would be considered a I-V-I in C major, but is the chords where extended to Cmaj7(#11)-Gmaj-Cmaj7(#11)... it would derive from which Scale (or mode) ?

(yes i know the 2nd progression dosent really have a resoultion any more but it still serves the purpose for this question)

Ænimus Prime
05-08-2007, 07:27 AM
G major.

sock_demon
05-08-2007, 02:02 PM
I'm going to throw this out there.... Dorian... >_>

hurlyz
05-08-2007, 05:42 PM
I'm going to throw this out there.... Dorian... >_>wtf loll? :p:

It's obviously C Lydian if you want to stay in the key of C..... or it could be G major as the Tool guy said... :p:

Peanut1614
05-08-2007, 06:14 PM
I would say c lydian because of the #4 sound :)

Left_hander_nz
05-09-2007, 12:57 AM
G major.

thats right, beacuse the tonal centre is C i would of also accepted C lydian.
your turn :peace:

Ænimus Prime
05-09-2007, 02:41 AM
How many beats per bar in 15/16? How long is each beat?

sirpsycho85
05-09-2007, 03:21 AM
5 beats, each beat has the duration of a dotted eigth note.

Ænimus Prime
05-09-2007, 03:46 AM
5 beats, each beat has the duration of a dotted eigth note.
Your turn.

justin_fraser
05-10-2007, 06:15 PM
Its been well over 24 hours, so here we go to get things rolling again.

What key has 7 sharps? Id like both major and minor names.

EDIT: and no using google to find this one!!! :p:

Johnljones7443
05-10-2007, 06:44 PM
C# major and A# minor. (C# - D# - E# - F# - G# - A# - B#)

jazkel24
05-10-2007, 07:15 PM
Argh.... pretty sure he wins /\...

But his sharps are out of order. Should be (F#, C#, G#, D#, A#, E# B#)

Johnljones7443
05-10-2007, 07:24 PM
^Huh? I simply wrote the scale down, I don't think the OP was looking for a specific order of sharps.

justin_fraser
05-10-2007, 10:24 PM
John you got it. And I wasnt even looking for the sharps to be named anyways. So youre up.

Ænimus Prime
05-12-2007, 03:05 AM
Okay I thinks it's been 24 hours so just to keep the ball rolling (or because I suck at theory) I'll give an easy question:

What chord will this plagally cadence to? (if that makes sense)

e-11
B-8
G-8
D-8
A-10
E-11

Johnljones7443
05-12-2007, 08:56 AM
Bee flat major.

Ænimus Prime
05-12-2007, 05:25 PM
Yep. Now ask something super hard so I can learn something!

justin_fraser
05-13-2007, 08:59 PM
Who can tell me what allegro means? Now I need exactly what it is. Like if you were writing a music theory exam, this is what you would put. And to add to this question, who can tell me what is just a bit more than allegro. I need a name for this one as well. Hope you understand the questions.

nightwind
05-13-2007, 09:17 PM
Allegro is a tempo marking which mean "quickly". If Andante is a casual walking pace, Allegro is a jog. The beats per minute would be around 112-120 on most modern metronomes. The next quickest tempo marking is Vivace, which still isn't quite as fast as Presto. All three of these markings can be varied by the suffix "issimo" . When in this form, they are among the fastest standardized tempo markings.

bluesrocker101
05-13-2007, 09:19 PM
Allegro: Quickly and Cheerfully. Tempo range: 120 bpm - 168bpm.

Vivace: Lively and Fast.

Edit: *looks at Nighty's post* :sad: I just got pwnd.

Ænimus Prime
05-13-2007, 09:20 PM
I was always taught Allegro meant 'Quickly and Happily'
For the second question would it be 'Presto'?

justin_fraser
05-14-2007, 12:17 AM
Nighty, I sure have taught you well havent I :p:

nightwind
05-14-2007, 06:17 AM
Name the piece of music W. A. Mozart Sr. only partially finished because of his death, including the first two initials of the man who is speculated to have finished it.

Peanut1614
05-14-2007, 09:48 AM
Seems a bit unrelated to the topic 'Music History' wasn't mentioned lol nevermind.
Requiem is the piece unfinished... But I thought that there were still occasional attemps to finish it after one of his pupils had. The pupils name began with an S and it was a strange name.. Sussery? Something like that..

sinan90
05-14-2007, 02:11 PM
The piece was the Requiem Mass in D minor which Mozart wrote until he died and then was finished by Franz Xaver Süssmayr.

nightwind
05-14-2007, 08:27 PM
I'm accepting Sinan's response here.

That seems to be the most accepted theory.

sinan90
05-15-2007, 05:23 AM
Name five standards which make use of chromatic embellishment of static harmony aka contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony.

Ænimus Prime
05-19-2007, 12:00 AM
Alright it's been a few days so:

Name and tab a chord or arpeggio that would create a perfect authentic cadence from this arpeggio:

e------------------8-10---------
B------------7-10---------------
G----------7---------------------
D-----6-9-----------------------
A---8----------------------------
E-9------------------------------

Freepower
05-19-2007, 05:54 AM
F# maj, root position, with an F# in the highest voice. Mmm?

Ænimus Prime
05-19-2007, 08:07 PM
Yep, your turn.

Freepower
05-20-2007, 09:56 AM
Alright then, this should be a laff -

I'm posting a link to my dmusic here, there's a file on it called "Name that Chord - Name that Number!". To put it simply, this is an aural question. The piece is composed around a certain number, and blatantly so. Basically, I want you to

A) Decide which number the piece is based around
B) Give as many reasons as possible as to why it's based around that particular number.

Here's the link - http://nms.dmusic.com/music/

It's actually not that hard, there are clues all over the place. Oh, and for those of you who don't like industrial nastiness, i've made a "nice" version.

I hope this kind of cryptic nonsense is allowed under the rules, but it should be fun anyway.

VR2005
05-20-2007, 10:29 AM
^ Don't worry, quirky questions are what either destroy this thread or keep it thriving.

hurlyz
05-21-2007, 06:24 PM
^ Don't worry, quirky questions are what either destroy this thread or keep it thriving.Seems like the first option is what happened here :)

Here's my question!



Explain why ii-V-I sounds good :)

Freepower
05-21-2007, 08:43 PM
ii is the V of V, creating a cascading pseudo cadence to perfect cadence. I also answer my own question, you lazy gits -

the number is 7.

First of all, the "main riff" is a polymetric 7/8 over 4/4.
Secondly, all the fills are in groupings of 7.
Thirdly, the octave riff above changes into harmonised 7ths on certain occasions.
Fourth, the first fills are made of a 7 note purely chromatic run.
Fifth, the last fill is made up entirely of 5ths (which are 7 semitones) and 7ths (duh).

Pah, sue me for trying something different.

Oh, and if my answer is correct for your question i'll pick something a little easier/less taxing.

WootSticks
05-21-2007, 09:03 PM
Explain why ii-V7-I sounds good :)

Fixed.

It sounds good because of the following reasons:

1) It contains every note of a given scale.
2) ii -> V7 sounds good because only two notes move, it is a smooth movement.
3) V7 -> I sounds good because the highest voice, the 7, goes up one semitone, while one of the lower voices, the 4, goes down one semitone. The 7 screams to be resolved, it's a treason not to.

I can't think of a question to ask or any more reasons, and I haven't much longer today on the boards.

EDIT: I didn't know about the double cadence thing. Cool.

hurlyz
05-21-2007, 09:32 PM
Freepower has got it! WootSticks' answer is good too but all I was looking for is that ii is like V/V so it makes a "double" V-I candence... and that works even if the V isn't a V7.. which is why I didn't put it ;)

Freepower, your turn!

Freepower
05-22-2007, 06:27 AM
Notate -

A) A major tonic chord.
B) It's dominant
C) The aug 6th.

And explain how it looks like a tritone substitution for the domininant of the dominant.

Not too hard, i hope. :)

Peanut1614
05-23-2007, 05:02 PM
Erm to hard im guessing been over 24 hours? I cudnt be bothered to notate something and scan it in lol :P And im not to sure how to do tri tone sub. Try this chord to get teh game started again...

E 0
B 3
G 2
D 2
A
E

nightwind
05-23-2007, 05:12 PM
E sus

Peanut1614
05-23-2007, 06:14 PM
Yup! Altho id be more inclined to say Dsus2 or Asus4 as these have all of the notes of the chord in. Your up Nighty

HarmonicMinor
05-24-2007, 09:27 AM
Next chord?

Peanut1614
05-24-2007, 06:31 PM
Okay a really easy one see if we can get a few more people in here:

E 0
B 0
G 0
D 0
A
E

bluesrocker101
05-24-2007, 06:42 PM
Em/D (Em7) or G6 in the 2nd inversion.

Peanut1614
05-24-2007, 06:51 PM
Em/D (Em7) or G6 in the 2nd inversion.

G6 was what i had in mind, your up!

Peanut1614
05-25-2007, 08:49 PM
Okay times up again: Come on people this things just dead now ;(
Give me a version of a G/C polychord! (Not sure if thats how you notate them cant qite remember but you know what i mean)

sirpsycho85
05-26-2007, 12:11 AM
Cmaj9. I believe that's C E G B D, which makes it a mix of the C and G chords.

Peanut1614
05-26-2007, 11:25 AM
Sorry should have made myself more clear, i was after the tab for it.. I think knowing the ntoes is great but knowing how to apply them is better!

rockguitar84
05-26-2007, 01:11 PM
e-0
B-1
G-0
D-0
A-2
E-3

sinan90
05-26-2007, 01:27 PM
^ When he say G/C that means the C part has to be in the bass part other wise it would be a C/G polychord. Anyway I made it G/Cmaj7, sounds nicer.

In notation:
http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/7600/untitledlv7.png

rockguitar84
05-26-2007, 01:38 PM
When he say G/C that means the C part has to be in the bass part other wise it would be a C/G polychord.

Not from what I learned. http://ultimate-guitar.com/lessons/chords/poly_chords.html But I don't think it matters either way how you stack it, as long as you still play both chords.

Peanut1614
05-27-2007, 09:24 AM
Erm sinan your post is blank for answers?

What id originally had in mind was something along the lines of:

E:
B: 0
G: 7
D: 5
A: 7
E: 8

With the C triad in the bass and G in the bottom strings, you can put an open Es in but it dosnt give a very nice sound in my opinion...

My understanding was that the note after the slash was always in the bass but apprantly not according to that lesson but im dubious of how much the guy knows about chords when he says '(how do you write this, C+9+11+13? There is no 7, but perhaps folks would just write C13anyway? I don't know).' Although at least he admits he dosnt know lol. We'd need Johnl or someone to clarify that about the bass note(s) though I think...

But Rockguitar you can go now since you were at least half right, possibly more!

sinan90
05-27-2007, 10:23 AM
^ I got the notation in my post. It's showing up for me :confused:

rockguitar84
05-27-2007, 10:33 AM
^Yeah that's weird. I can see it

I can't really think of any great questions right now, but here's something that's fun to do and sounds beautiful. Harmonize this Em7 chord in diatonic thirds, assuming it's in the key of G.


e-0
B-0
G-0
D-0
A-2
E-0


Let me know if you don't understand.

Johnljones7443
05-27-2007, 10:40 AM
My understanding was that the note after the slash was always in the bass but apprantly not according to that lesson but im dubious of how much the guy knows about chords when he says '(how do you write this, C+9+11+13? There is no 7, but perhaps folks would just write C13anyway? I don't know).' Although at least he admits he dosnt know lol. We'd need Johnl or someone to clarify that about the bass note(s) though I think...

But Rockguitar you can go now since you were at least half right, possibly more!

Polychords aren't notated with a slash. Your chord would be notated as

G
C

I have no idea what the hell C+9+11+13 means though. I think it means C7#9#11 if the + are being used to notate augmented intervals, in which case the +13 (#13) is really functioning as a minor 7th, thus you get 1 - 3 - 5 - b7 - #9 - #11. A _7#9#11 chord. If it means Cadd9add11add13 then you could call it C(9, 11, 13) or something like that, but to me it looks like some kind of D- or FΔ chord.

@Rockguitar..


|-3-|
|-3-|
|-4-|
|-4-|
|-5-|
|-3-|


Is this the voicing you want? Every note as it's stacked harmonized with it's diatonic third. Gives us GΔ.

rockguitar84
05-27-2007, 10:46 AM
^Yes, sir. You're up.

Johnljones7443
05-27-2007, 10:51 AM
|-9--|
|-11-|
|-10-|
|-10-|
|-x--|
|-x--|


Name the chord, and three scales it's built from.

bigmanwithanaxe
05-27-2007, 11:15 AM
C F Bb Db
BbminAdd9?
Built from:
Bb dorian
Bb Aeolian
Bb Melodic minor?
Not too sure about the scales bit.

Peanut1614
05-27-2007, 11:17 AM
^ I got the notation in my post. It's showing up for me :confused:

Sorry i cant see it!

And Johnl is it the note below the line thats in the bass though?

G
C

So the C triad is in the bass?

And the +9 etc. was an add chord nevermind it was only an example of why i was dubious about the guy.

Johnljones7443
05-27-2007, 11:50 AM
@bigman: Nope, sorry mate.

@Peanut: Yes. That's right.

bigmanwithanaxe
05-27-2007, 12:03 PM
Csusb9?
C phygian
C locrian
C phygian dominant?

Johnljones7443
05-27-2007, 12:56 PM
Csusb9 is correct. C phryg and C phryg dom are correct. C loc is technically correct, but I was looking for a type of pentatonic scale (The In-sen scale) which is effectively a _susb9 arpeggio.

You's up bud.

bigmanwithanaxe
05-27-2007, 01:21 PM
Cool, so is the In-sen scale: 1 b2 4 5 b7?
I'm not very good at these....

D|-0--|
A|-6--|
F|-7*-|
C|-7*-|
G|----|
D|-7--|

* = Natural Harmonic

The chord and 3 scales it is built from...

Johnljones7443
05-27-2007, 01:34 PM
^Yup.

Hm.. so, I think the natural harm at the 7th is a perfect fifth from the open string, right? So, this gives me Dsusb9 from D Phryg, D Phryg dom and D In-sen. :p: (Thief)

bigmanwithanaxe
05-27-2007, 02:01 PM
Lol yeah... nice one.
The harmonic at the 7th fret also just the note that is underneath it an octave higher.