Blues/Jazz N00b Question Thread


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imgooley
06-14-2008, 08:34 PM
Well, after being on UG for a while, I have noticed that many, many people have certain misconceptions about Blues and Jazz, so in order to educate young n00bz and n00blettes in the way of the blues and/or jazz, I think it would be a good idea to have a thread where said n00bz can ask questions about different styles of blues/jazz, how to play either, etc.

If this ain't a good idea, let me know, and I'll get rid of it.

Sdooper_Man
06-14-2008, 08:42 PM
yo, I'm a rock /metal guitarist looking to learn something new to base solos off of to add more emotion to my ****. so it'd be chill if you could explain some basic blues prog and scales that i should know.

imgooley
06-14-2008, 09:24 PM
The most basic blues progression is the I IV V progression. So in the key of E it would be E A B. The most common progression is the 12 bar progression, where it has the I through the first 4 bars, the IV on the next two bars, back to the I for the next 2 bars, then the V for 1 bar, the IV for one bar and then back to the one for the last 2 bars

so

/ I / I / I / I /
IV IV I / I
V IV I / I or V

so in E

E x 4, A x 2, E x 2, B x 1, A x1, E x 1 and either E or B x1

The last bar is a turnaround phrase. Oftentimes, songs will use the IV to lead into the next verse or chorus.

As far as soloing, you can either play it straight through or modulate. You can play the same lick over the entire progression, or you can play the root on the change. Either is fine, just make sure that what you play sounds right to you.

I hope that helped.

Pink Zeptallica
06-15-2008, 08:48 AM
Obviously, the pentatonic scales as well as their modes.

imgooley
06-29-2008, 12:07 AM
bump

GD_GC
06-29-2008, 12:15 AM
I like this idea, maybe kinda like that lesson thread thing that never got off the ground. I'm here to help with theory/soloing/licks/whatever anyone needs.

:cheers:

demonofthenight
06-29-2008, 10:56 AM
Obviously, the pentatonic scales as well as their modes.Does blues use modes? I know jazz does.

Punk_Ninja
06-29-2008, 11:01 AM
Any music can make use of modes (or any musical technique/knowledge) as long as it still sounds like that music at the end of it all.

slayer1516
06-29-2008, 11:40 AM
Heres a fact: Blues and jazz are completley different forms of music. I don't know how they got shoved together. Asking to learn blues/jazz is like asking to learn metal/folk. They are differant forms of music.

ze monsta
06-29-2008, 11:45 AM
Heres a fact: You are actually wrong! :haha

The Blues and Jazz are very very very closely related!

[charlie_j]
06-29-2008, 12:45 PM
ok,
so what makes blues blues and what makes jazz, jazz?

ze monsta
06-29-2008, 01:36 PM
Blues is characterised by a repetitive structure (usually 12 or 8 bars long) and the Blues scale (pentatonic scale with blue notes mainly flatted sevenths, fifths and thirds [amiright? my theory isn't great]). Blues has roots in African-American slave trade from where field hollers appeared (a basis for call and response now used all the time), spirituals and white hillbilly folk music. In African traditional music call and response plays a large part, as does improvised harmonisation and syncopation.

Jazz is almost identical except instead of coming from the Mississippi Delta, it came from New Orleans, ragtime and marching bands.

GD_GC
06-29-2008, 02:13 PM
Yes, and jazz basically evolved out of the blues of the delta. If you really listen to blues and jazz, you will see the similarities. I'm not that big on jazz theory, but I know it also involves a hell of a lot of flat 3rd, 7ths, and 5ths, and a lot of standard jazz tunes are a "spiced up" version of a 12 bar blues.

Jazz, as a generalization, is blues with more music theory involved also. It makes use of much more complex chords and modes, and the improvisation is MUCH more complex than just laying down a blues scale lick, but jazz is COMPLETELY rooted in the blues, and THAT is a fact.

ze monsta
06-29-2008, 02:25 PM
*High fives* :haha

imgooley
06-29-2008, 02:41 PM
Does blues use modes?
Yes, yes it does.


Jazz, as a generalization, is blues with more music theory involved also. It makes use of much more complex chords and modes, and the improvisation is MUCH more complex than just laying down a blues scale lick, but jazz is COMPLETELY rooted in the blues, and THAT is a fact.

This.

The reason that Jazz is a more complex form of music is because of the fact that it developed in New Orleans and New York as opposed to Mississippi and Chicago (loose generalization to the origins).

Jazz developed from blues and ragtime music (which was prominent in minstrel shows), by classical musicians. Ragtime is the origin of the syncopated rhythms (in Jazz). Everything else, stylistically, comes directly from the Blues.

I've used this analogy before: Jazz is just Blues played by a virtuoso musician. Prove me wrong. :cool:

Dimebag22
06-29-2008, 02:52 PM
I've used this analogy before: Jazz is just Blues played by a virtuoso musician. Prove me wrong. :cool:
This man is right.

“Jazz is the big brother of the blues. If a guy's playing blues like we play, he's in high school. When he starts playing jazz it's like going on to college, to a school of higher learning.”
-BB King

GD_GC
06-29-2008, 03:26 PM
That is an awesome quote man

meh!
06-29-2008, 04:08 PM
Stick a 2-5-1 at the end of a 12 bar and you've got jazz ;)

I kid :P: (mostly)

sinan90
06-29-2008, 06:17 PM
Jazz is characterised by the presence of the #5/b6 in the scale, so for example for C major it would be C D E F G Ab A B C, blues on the other hand is characterized much more by a b5 and bends in the region between 4 and 5.

slayer1516
06-29-2008, 09:41 PM
The two genres may be related, but many genres are related. I guess folk and blues can be considered interchangable now, because they are similar? I just don't see how this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx8GUzSliGg

is the same genre as this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNj2BXW852g

Jazz may have evolved from blues, but metal also evolved from blues, But we don't have a Blues/Metal forum, do we?

Jimmy94
06-29-2008, 09:47 PM
They're not just related, they're very closely related. Jazz artists constantly played blues progressions and many blues guitarists would play jazzy songs. John Lee Hooker made an album with Miles Davis, I don't see Opeth collaborating with Bob Dylan.

imgooley
06-29-2008, 10:07 PM
The two genres may be related, but many genres are related. I guess folk and blues can be considered interchangable now, because they are similar? I just don't see how this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fx8GUzSliGg

is the same genre as this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNj2BXW852g

Jazz may have evolved from blues, but metal also evolved from blues, But we don't have a Blues/Metal forum, do we?
...

The key to the link between the two is the inflection in the phrasing.

You might as well ask what this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=f5Hbh_-IRs8

has to do with this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=me7P9qqBgwI

If you look and listen, you can hear the link, which is the same in this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY

and this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xoXI1zZbGIc

I hear the blues blues soloing in all of these, the only difference being the degree of skill associated with the musicians.

demonofthenight
06-30-2008, 12:02 PM
Blues is characterised by a repetitive structure (usually 12 or 8 bars long) and the Blues scale (pentatonic scale with blue notes mainly flatted sevenths, fifths and thirds [amiright? my theory isn't great]). Blues has roots in African-American slave trade from where field hollers appeared (a basis for call and response now used all the time), spirituals and white hillbilly folk music. In African traditional music call and response plays a large part, as does improvised harmonisation and syncopation.Thats applicable to both jazz and blues. Jazz uses call and response and 12 bar blues too, especially in dixieland jazz.The reason that Jazz is a more complex form of music is because of the fact that it developed in New Orleans and New York as opposed to Mississippi and Chicago (loose generalization to the origins).

Jazz developed from blues and ragtime music (which was prominent in minstrel shows), by classical musicians. Ragtime is the origin of the syncopated rhythms (in Jazz). Everything else, stylistically, comes directly from the Blues.

I've used this analogy before: Jazz is just Blues played by a virtuoso musician. Prove me wrong. I think it was the aristocrats from france and spain who came to louisiana that brought the classical influence to jazz. I saw a documentary that said many of them had black children who grew up feeling alienated from the white majority. So they would play their instruments with the poor blacks, the decendents of slaves who brought the call and response/african tribal beats (syncopation, calypso and so on) to jazz.

So how do we define jazz in a sentence?

ze monsta
06-30-2008, 01:54 PM
Thats applicable to both jazz and blues. Jazz uses call and response and 12 bar blues too, especially in dixieland jazz.

Well I was afraid to comment about jazz as my knowledge is fairly limited. :(

GD_GC
06-30-2008, 02:20 PM
If this guy still doesn't see why blues and jazz are like brothers then I give up.

imgooley
06-30-2008, 03:00 PM
Thats applicable to both jazz and blues. Jazz uses call and response and 12 bar blues too, especially in dixieland jazz.I think it was the aristocrats from france and spain who came to louisiana that brought the classical influence to jazz. I saw a documentary that said many of them had black children who grew up feeling alienated from the white majority. So they would play their instruments with the poor blacks, the decendents of slaves who brought the call and response/african tribal beats (syncopation, calypso and so on) to jazz.

So how do we define jazz in a sentence?
It has a bunch of Island rhythms too (the Calypso beats/afro cuban jazz).

You are right, but the name for those mixed people is Creole, and that's where you get the names "Quatroon" and "Octaroon" from, pertaining to how much blackness a person had in them.

There were 2 Creole orchestras in New Orleans before Jim Crow struck the South hard like it did. New Orleans was hit less hard than, say, Mississippi because of the fact that it is a Port city. So, many of the poor former slaves, now Sharecroppers moved to New Orleans to find work, and they brought the Blues with them.

The Creole Orchestras were shut down. So you have a great number of Classically trained, virtuoso musicians who were now lumped in with all the Blacks. So they start playing the blues on their horns, and on their fiddles, and such.

Jazz, to me, in a sentence, is blues played by virtuoso musicians. Monk, Mingus, Ellington, Basie, Armstrong, Montgomery, Coltrane, Davis, Rollins, all played blues. But the way they played it, and with the tremendous amount of musical skill the imbued thereof made it jazz.

slayer1516
06-30-2008, 07:01 PM
...

The key to the link between the two is the inflection in the phrasing.

You might as well ask what this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=f5Hbh_-IRs8

has to do with this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=me7P9qqBgwI

If you look and listen, you can hear the link, which is the same in this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=__OSyznVDOY

and this

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xoXI1zZbGIc

I hear the blues blues soloing in all of these, the only difference being the degree of skill associated with the musicians.

Alright, I see your point. I still think that jazz is pretty removed from blues, but I see what you mean. Arguing over the internet is pointless anyways, so whatever.

:peace: Peace

ze monsta
07-01-2008, 12:32 PM
We aren't arguing, we are educating you.

manmanman133
07-01-2008, 01:31 PM
Well, I've been playing simple 12 bar for quite a while, and still want to play the blues, but with a more melodic feel, ala http://youtube.com/watch?v=UuPXCrXKAeY

If I wanted to get this sound/phrasing down, is it basically just a lot of simple major modes according to chord changes, or what?

imgooley
07-01-2008, 01:38 PM
I don't know the name of the modes, but using a major scale is not uber common, though it can be done. However, what many people, including myself, do is include sweet notes, a la BB King. These notes being the Major 3rd, and the Major 6th.

For a different flavor, try using the full minor scale, or say, the harmonic minor scale.

You can also change scales on the chord changes. Say you are playing blues in G. On the IV chord, you can play in C.

And just to clarify: Blues soloing isn't melody based.

slayer1516
07-01-2008, 05:02 PM
We aren't arguing, we are educating you.

Constructive arguing, I meant

demonofthenight
07-02-2008, 02:56 AM
I don't know the name of the modes, but using a major scale is not uber common, though it can be done. However, what many people, including myself, do is include sweet notes, a la BB King. These notes being the Major 3rd, and the Major 6th.

For a different flavor, try using the full minor scale, or say, the harmonic minor scale.

You can also change scales on the chord changes. Say you are playing blues in G. On the IV chord, you can play in C.

And just to clarify: Blues soloing isn't melody based.First off, I'm not too good at blues. I normally play either rock, metal or jazz.

I think alot of blues (the solo's I mean) is mostly pentatonics, with added m3s and b5's and a couple of bends from out of key notes and some neat chromatics. I wouldnt suggest minor scales (harmonic minor and such) as, to me, it doesnt sound that bluesy.
If anyone here wants, I have some posts saved from conversations in MT. Mostly about modes and improvising.

And +1 imgooley on suggesting to play the changes. Alot of blues (although its more common in jazz) will play the changes. Meaning they play something different over each different chord (which is actually harder than it sounds).

Blues soloing isn't melody basedWait. What? If a melody isnt melody based what is it? :confused:

imgooley
07-02-2008, 03:09 AM
First off, I'm not too good at blues. I normally play either rock, metal or jazz.

I think alot of blues (the solo's I mean) is mostly pentatonics, with added m3s and b5's and a couple of bends from out of key notes and some neat chromatics. I wouldnt suggest minor scales (harmonic minor and such) as, to me, it doesnt sound that bluesy.
If anyone here wants, I have some posts saved from conversations in MT. Mostly about modes and improvising.

And +1 imgooley on suggesting to play the changes. Alot of blues (although its more common in jazz) will play the changes. Meaning they play something different over each different chord (which is actually harder than it sounds).

Wait. What? If a melody isnt melody based what is it? :confused:
Anything can sound bluesy if you play it right. Blues ain't about the notes, it's about the way you play them.

And when I say "Not melodic" or "not melody based", I mean not melodic in the typical sense. It's more harmonic or rhythmic as opposed to melodic. As is the majority of black music.

I guess I mean it's not real 'hooky' like say, a folk melody or a country melody. It's kinda hard to describe. But I wouldn't describe a blues solo as melodic.

Amart
07-02-2008, 08:43 PM
Well, I've been playing simple 12 bar for quite a while, and still want to play the blues, but with a more melodic feel, ala http://youtube.com/watch?v=UuPXCrXKAeY

If I wanted to get this sound/phrasing down, is it basically just a lot of simple major modes according to chord changes, or what?
If you wanna learn to play tha blues, you gotta learn from the players, not from a textbook. You can use as many different scales as you want, but if you don't know how to use 'em, you're helpless.

That's why you gotta mimic the players, play how they play. And when you learn a solo, don't just take the notes, take the subtleties, and nuances. Learn the different vibratos, slides, and bends.

One solo I would recommend to give an idea of great phrasing is Clapton's solo on Badge by Cream. Just listen and see how he can make three notes take up 20 beats.

npaoun
07-03-2008, 01:05 AM
My teacher wants me to mess around with improving over a basic 12 bar using the major pentatonic in G. What should I listen to or watch or read or whatever to sort of get a direction to go towards. I just need some ideas for licks to expand off of basically.

imgooley
07-03-2008, 01:19 AM
My teacher wants me to mess around with improving over a basic 12 bar using the major pentatonic in G. What should I listen to or watch or read or whatever to sort of get a direction to go towards. I just need some ideas for licks to expand off of basically.
The Warren Haynes Hotlicks video is a great learning tool.

Also, just throw some random licks over a progression and see what sticks. Is it a Slow blues or a boogie woogie type thing?

A good song to play in G is Texas Flood. You can improvise a lot of licks over that, and switch between major and minor pentatonic scales pretty easy.

npaoun
07-03-2008, 05:47 PM
Its more of a slow blues. It goes G, C9, D9, then repeats. I have used a few texas flood licks they were basically all I knew that sounded right

Flow of soul
07-03-2008, 06:56 PM
Since this is a noob thread I was wondering if anyone had put together a list of jazz and blue songs for beginners? Ive been searching for awhile but I cant seem to find anything.

sinan90
07-04-2008, 06:09 PM
The best jazz tune tobegin with is probably Autumn Leaves, it's simple with melody and harmony, quite easy to put in a few substitutions when you're more confident with them and a nice set fo schords to work around different voicings with sicne the chords each come up a lot of times so you'll find a different voicing will fit a different situation better. You could also look at a lot of jazz blues songs, things like Billie's Bounce, or C Jam Blues, both very simple tunes but good to start off with.

ze monsta
07-05-2008, 06:54 AM
Its more of a slow blues. It goes G, C9, D9, then repeats. I have used a few texas flood licks they were basically all I knew that sounded right
Listen to Stormy Monday by T-Bone Walker, and the covers of it by everyone. That is exactly what you need to hear.

Gris-Gris-Man
07-10-2008, 01:14 AM
bump i dig this thread

imgooley
08-19-2008, 04:06 AM
Bumparoo since the forum has been inundated with teh n00bz since I've been gone.

HoneyFUZZ_123
08-19-2008, 09:45 AM
Blues / Jazz tunes are great to improvise over as u can stick to the pentatonics and itl sound just fine, but if u really wanna nail the changes, thats when arpeggios, and modes come into the picture

imgooley
08-19-2008, 10:16 PM
This thread needs a http://www.dreamstime.com/stickynote-thumb144387

Dchild042
08-19-2008, 10:25 PM
yes i agree im tired of the "what blues should i learn", "what scale does srv use", "getting into blues" threads

imgooley
08-19-2008, 10:27 PM
yes i agree im tired of the "what blues should i learn", "what scale does srv use", "getting into blues" threads
It seems those are the only threads that pop up in here. :facepalm: