Really, WTF is progressive music?


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SilverDark
08-26-2008, 10:58 PM
What makes progressive different from the other genres, and which bands pertain to this genre?

ibanez41093
08-26-2008, 11:00 PM
never even heard of it

Butthead
08-26-2008, 11:03 PM
It's a long piece of music that rarely rehashes parts, i.e. riffs and the like. Early Metallica, Rush, and Coheed and Cambria are good places to start if you're just looking into the genre. In my opinion, it's structure resembles that of a classical piec of music, always moving and changing tempos quite often.

acdcfan1556
08-26-2008, 11:04 PM
pink floyd too

Ultimate_Gio92
08-26-2008, 11:04 PM
Early Metallica? I dont agree with that. Kill em All? Ride the Lightning? Master of Puppets? I dont see that as progressive as Rush and Coheed and Cambria. Check out Symphony X and Dream Theater.

Ze_Metal
08-26-2008, 11:05 PM
Yeah what "Butthead" Said pretty much. It's not a genre, just how to explain the music. Lots of chord progressions and stuff.

ChurchNSkate
08-26-2008, 11:05 PM
.. Progressive music isn't necessarily long. It's just a style of songwriting that leans towards new ideas, unconventional song structures and generally large improvisation sections.

JBOO7OHMSS
08-26-2008, 11:05 PM
Progressive basically means different. If a band does wierd things and explores different ways of making music they are progressive.

Rush is a well known progressive band. Odd time sigs also are progressive.

Some say Pink Floyd is progressive but i don't think so, they're just more musical with their music, imo.

Wikipedia has a page on progressive music and a list of progressive bands.

Progressive is cool when i get tired of the same old repetitive thing most bands do. It's just different and more complex.

21st century schizoid man is a very progressive song, (the April Wine version is better, imo)

hope this helps

Butthead
08-26-2008, 11:07 PM
Early Metallica? I dont agree with that. Kill em All? Ride the Lightning? Master of Puppets? I dont see that as progressive as Rush and Coheed and Cambria. Check out Symphony X and Dream Theater.
I'll agree that it's not near as progressive as the two aforementioned bands, but they are very accessable and easy to discuss with most people.

Zimm69
08-26-2008, 11:07 PM
Progressive music doesn't have a normal song structure. It doesn't flow like a lot of songs, for example the verse-chorus-verse type of song. (there is a lot more to it than just what I said)

A couple bands I like that are progressive are Frank Zappa and Necrophagist.

Stratmaster458
08-26-2008, 11:09 PM
Yes,Emerson Lake and Palmer,Pink Floyd,Wishbone Ash,Tool,A Perfect Circle, Porcupine Tree,Rush,Some Frank Zappa

those are all progressive.

its irrelevant
08-26-2008, 11:09 PM
A Perfect Circle is fairly progressive, Tool is prog too but even more so than APC. Opeth and Between the Buried and Me for some more progressive metal. BTBAM is just ridiculously insane in all of their songs

piratemetalhead
08-26-2008, 11:10 PM
Eeer, it's a very vague term, but odd time-signatures, philosophical lyrics, odd song structuring, exotic scales/ chords, and concept albums are all traits of progressive rock/ metal/ whatever.

It kinda gets confused with avant-garde sometimes, but they're VERY different.

bigtimmy
08-26-2008, 11:10 PM
O-p-e-t-h

SilverDark
08-26-2008, 11:14 PM
Yes! This "Progressive" way of thinking sounds like my type of fancy, and since I do listen to Symphony X, I now have a more clearer understanding of this genre, especially the experimentation of different things... Maybe I should be a "Progressive" type player...

Pageles
08-26-2008, 11:17 PM
mars volta

BeerChurch
08-26-2008, 11:59 PM
Progressive Rock = Real, honest music in it's truest art form. Playing what is felt, uncomprimised, without intentionally being commercial or selling out to Corporate elephants for the sake of selling records.

3_D
08-27-2008, 12:02 AM
i'm a prog rock kind of guy.. and if you want prime examples of this listen to some of Rush's "story" songs and albums such as 2112 and hemispheres.. songs like "the necromancer" and "Cygnus x-1" are also good songs that show how A single song can be broken down and redone in different ways to tell a story and have the music set the mood for it.

Second Rate
08-27-2008, 12:22 AM
Some say Pink Floyd is progressive but i don't think so


Finally, someone else who gets it. It's too bluesy..... they are/were/will always be psychedelic, not progressive rock.

Anyway..... they way i've always defined progressive rock for people new to it is "anything but the blues." It is basically avoiding the tired blues conventions that are so prevalent in rock.

seymour_jackson
08-27-2008, 03:36 PM
Progressive Rock = Real, honest music in it's truest art form. Playing what is felt, uncomprimised, without intentionally being commercial or selling out to Corporate elephants for the sake of selling records.

+10000000

Dream Theater and Symphony X is progessive music in its most brutal yet inetlligent form. I would say early Metallica does have some progessive element in it but Black album and on, no.

rush, yes, BBTBAM, Protest the Hero(they are always forgotten :(, DT, Sym X, DEATH, some testament, some Megadeth, Opeth, Procupine tree, Coheed umm cant think of anything else.

DaFjory
08-27-2008, 03:53 PM
Fates Warning and Queensryche for early prog metal (almost can't separate them at times).

"Progressive", to me, is music that takes on a lot of twists and turns over the course of an album choruses might be abound, but they're not incredibly repetitive like those found in European power metal; tempo can be slow one minute, fast the next, and back & forth; vox might change with a different movement, such as sinister to downright angry; songs can have different 'pieces' or sections which seem to interweave either seamlessly (A Change Of Seasons by DT) or rather clunkily (The Ivory Gate Of Dreams by Fates Warning); drums should be quite complex and have lots of fills; guitar needs to have dynamics shifting from light to harsh, etc.

I won't start on the whole "prog musicians are superior in technical skill to any other genre" crap. There are standard shredders out there with heaps of talent in their fingers, but they just don't happen to be prog. And so on.

Slaytanic1993
08-27-2008, 04:41 PM
Music that stretches the boundaries of what is deemed 'normal' by the masses.

DaFjory
08-27-2008, 04:43 PM
^ A bit broad...

Slaytanic1993
08-27-2008, 06:30 PM
Prog is VERY broad as it is.

That's the fucking point.

Porcupine Tree and Orphaned Land?

Don't sound very much alike yet both are progressive.

Opeth and Yes?

Don't sound very much alike but both are intensely progressive. As with Dream Theater and King Crimson...Deaf and The Master's Apprentices, etc etc.

DaFjory
08-27-2008, 07:14 PM
Sure, I wasn't saying no to that at all. But then, you have bands like Genesis and Opeth who are both at the extreme opposites of the scale in terms of, say, heaviness but they share common characteristics found within prog; some of which I mentioned above (i.e. complex drumming and wildly shifting song structures). There's certain elements of musicianship which bands labelled as 'prog' always seems to have.

The thing that I found a bit strange about your "normal" quote was that, with such broad logic as you talked about, anything could be called prog if it "stretches the boundaries of what is deemed 'normal' by the masses" so that says to me someone making weird noises on a synth, or Primus, Buckethead's weird stuff, or even some of The Smiths' stuff could also count as prog. Hmm... http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5176/confused20pv3.gif



(Not trying to sound challenging or prickly. I prised apart that quote merely for discussion. ;) )

Slaytanic1993
08-27-2008, 07:17 PM
But...synths are about as generic as you can get.

Take a glance at the entirety of the 80's power pop scene and if you say a synth is a mysterious instrument you are slightly...challenged.

Primus, however, I could easily class as progressive rock/metal. Very strange stuff they do. And, strange noises on instruments is for avante-garde.

Avante-garde is more about the use of strange, otherwordly instruments (or simply symphonic elements, like a timpani or a Kiko).

ctfod
08-27-2008, 07:20 PM
Slaytanic knows what he's talking about.

Prog music is what it says in the title - it's music that progresses. It doesn't need to be long and meaty, as long as it explores new ideas and elaborates on those ideas.

Like an essay.

DaFjory
08-27-2008, 07:28 PM
Ah well. Maybe the whole genre is just... open to interpretation? I guess what elements people look for in a prog band, or prog as a genre, is as "broad" as prog itself. :p:

Slaytanic1993
08-27-2008, 07:48 PM
Ah well. Maybe the whole genre is just... open to interpretation? I guess what elements people look for in a prog band, or prog as a genre, is as "broad" as prog itself. :p:

Ah, so you agree with me :p:?

DaFjory
08-27-2008, 08:14 PM
Very partially. Mostly I agree with myself. ;)

xxdarrenxx
08-28-2008, 07:44 AM
Prog is very broad. What 1 guy said. Prog is music in it's truest art form without intentionally playing stuff too sell out.

What if this guitar player learned all from commercial guitarplayers and subconciously plays his inspirations. Very thin line there since it's always opinion based.

Too me prog is very simple and it's in the word itself:

Progress; Try out new techniques new sounds new composition materials. Don't just write songs. Explore em.

It's basically a (open) mindset rather then a style or genre; That's for sure.

Neo Evil11
08-28-2008, 07:51 AM
metallica and iron maiden definetely have progressive elements in their music.

Iron Maiden a lot actually

xxdarrenxx
08-28-2008, 08:03 AM
Yes. It's a mindset and how much u posses, or use of it is relative. And this thread will just start off as an inteligence show off, with the most baddass mofo's on the boards alive (no offence :p: ).

Everyone can use progressive elements. Only 1 more then others.

Like iron maiden has 10% prog element 90% rock/metal (just random)

where Rush would have like 80% prog 20% rock.

Really prog is a big term and (too) hard too define.

Neo Evil11
08-28-2008, 08:05 AM
Yes. It's a mindset and how much u posses, or use of it is relative. And this thread will just start off as an inteligence show off, with the most baddass mofo's on the boards alive (no offence :p: ).

Everyone can use progressive elements. Only 1 more then others.

Like iron maiden has 10% prog element 90% rock/metal (just random)

where Rush would have like 80% prog 20% rock.

Really prog is a big term and (too) hard too define.

Iron Maiden has a bit more prog on their last albums and ofcourse SEVENTH SON OF A SEVENTH SON! :heart:

xxdarrenxx
08-28-2008, 08:08 AM
That's why i had (Just random) behind it ;)

I'm not a statistics master. Just used some numbers as a relative for a rock based artist (Iron Maiden) and a Prog based artist (Rush) Which both also share ideas from each other's respective genres.

Andrewbiles
08-28-2008, 10:12 AM
Avante-garde is more about the use of strange, otherwordly instruments (or simply symphonic elements, like a timpani or a Kiko).

I disagree with that, you can have a standard three/four piece band (vocals, guitar, bass, drums) creating very avant-garde music. Avant-garde is more like re-inventing the wheel whereas prog music is about adapting it and seeing where it can go.

Neo Evil11
08-28-2008, 11:01 AM
I disagree with that, you can have a standard three/four piece band (vocals, guitar, bass, drums) creating very avant-garde music. Avant-garde is more like re-inventing the wheel whereas prog music is about adapting it and seeing where it can go.
that's just genious!

UncleCthulhu
08-28-2008, 11:04 AM
I disagree with that, you can have a standard three/four piece band (vocals, guitar, bass, drums) creating very avant-garde music. Avant-garde is more like re-inventing the wheel whereas prog music is about adapting it and seeing where it can go.

I disagree with all of you. If you were to give avant-garde a fixed definition it would no longer be avant-garde.

;)

xxdarrenxx
08-28-2008, 12:45 PM
yes Avant Garde is not a genre but a mindset. You can't define it.

And I already mentioned i see prog as taking what already exists and explore it; where avant garde is totaly play music different then how it is supposed.

example prog: (progrock) take a rock riff and do jazz solo over it in 7/4 time.

example avant garde: play a drumbeat on a garbage can and make the melody with a beer glas and record ur vocals in reverse LOL

These are random examples not definitions. If you wanna find ur answer go listen prog and then u will feel natural what prog is, cause u will develop that mindset of how the proggers think.

Just like beer; u have too learn too drink it, and when u have, u will meet pleaseant surprises.

Slaytanic1993
08-28-2008, 04:06 PM
I disagree with that, you can have a standard three/four piece band (vocals, guitar, bass, drums) creating very avant-garde music. Avant-garde is more like re-inventing the wheel whereas prog music is about adapting it and seeing where it can go.

Alright, I can easily agree with that.

I'm not much of an avante-garde man as it is, so I'm not 100% in the know.

ALajoie
08-28-2008, 09:57 PM
.. Progressive music isn't necessarily long. It's just a style of songwriting that leans towards new ideas, unconventional song structures and generally large improvisation sections.

Yep. And odd time signatures..

Neo Evil11
08-29-2008, 02:58 AM
Yep. And odd time signatures..
that's just a way to get the other ones.
DT is not writing a song like: wow we can't write it in 4/4. the riffs just aren't!

BlackArmor
08-30-2008, 04:21 PM
Rock music with classical influence. Everything else("Odd" time signatures, multi-part suites) is a consequence.

Neo Evil11
09-01-2008, 02:33 AM
Rock music with classical influence. Everything else("Odd" time signatures, multi-part suites) is a consequence.

a lot more then just classical incluences in my opinion.

xxdarrenxx
09-01-2008, 04:21 AM
Progresssive music is really expanding the musical composition. In what way (odd time signatures/exotic scales/virtuoso styled playing) you try too achieve that doesn't matter. It's about the underlying thought process behind it.

public property
09-01-2008, 08:36 AM
Was the term progressive originally added to imply that the bands music was of a progressive nature in the scheme of things, that it was bending the modern rules "progressing" them.
Or was it actually used to define a specific thing about the music?
I can see the original term being more to do with the genre in general and so the former.

DaFjory
09-01-2008, 09:05 AM
I've always imagined the term being invented because of peoples' need to describe how bands were suddenly making their songs longer and full of cool new stuff "it's got all these different 'movements' which progress, twist and turn with the odd time signatures... let's call it Progressive!"

I would be willing to bet it's as simple as that. None of that "expand the ideas" crap.

public property
09-01-2008, 11:36 AM
If it was just invented to describe a type of music bending the normal rules used, then today no music is progressive! Since its pretty much all been done to death.

Zaphod_Beeblebr
09-01-2008, 11:53 AM
Rock music with classical influence.

I don't think so, would you say that Ulrich Roth, Yngwie Malmsteen and Randy Rhoads all write/wrote prog music?

DaFjory
09-01-2008, 06:45 PM
If it was just invented to describe a type of music bending the normal rules used, then today no music is progressive! Since its pretty much all been done to death.

Maybe, but since bands like DT and SymX are a world apart from Razorlight or Kaiser Chiefs, I think the original meaning of "prog" (assuming there was one) can still be applied pretty liberally.

Hence, the majority of the music-loving public who listen to their simplistic Top40 stuff are unlikely to have ever even heard genuine prog, so to them anything bending the rules is a new thing. That won't ever change.

So I still reckon: long songs with unpredictable time shifts and complex drumming galore = prog personified.

Slaytanic1993
09-01-2008, 08:28 PM
But, a lot of prog rock is simple as hell, in literal guitar terms.

Deaf
Porcupine Tree
King Crimson
The Masters Apprentices
Etc,etc.

Prog doesn't instantly mean advanced instrumental work. In fact, that's only the modern definition to the mainstream audience, personally prog is defined by the mid70's-late80's prog, like ELP and S&G.

DaFjory
09-01-2008, 08:46 PM
Hmm... Has to be said, when I think of King Crimson (despite not liking them one bit), the word "simple" certainly doesn't come to mind. But then, when someone says to me "classic prog", I think 70's Rush and '70s Genesis all with their fill-laden drumming, 'deep' lyrics and shifty-shifty song structures. Every prog band I've heard so far seems to tick all those boxes for me, as opposed to simplistic hard rock bands or classic rock like Styx.

However, I will definitely agree with whoever might've said it before that Iron Maiden has had a lot of prog moments throughout their lifespan. In fact, I can't actually think of an album which hasn't had a song that's made me go "ooh, very proggy!" (i.e. Sign Of The Cross).

Slaytanic1993
09-01-2008, 10:26 PM
King Crimson are not technical in the fact of stright-up guitar-work.

They're more technical in the "ooh, 7 guitars layered onto each side, with those chromatic piano lines" technical. I never think of KC as technical, definitely simple when you dissect the instruments. Even teh drums are fairly simple.

Neo Evil11
09-02-2008, 06:34 AM
Hmm... Has to be said, when I think of King Crimson (despite not liking them one bit), the word "simple" certainly doesn't come to mind. But then, when someone says to me "classic prog", I think 70's Rush and '70s Genesis all with their fill-laden drumming, 'deep' lyrics and shifty-shifty song structures. Every prog band I've heard so far seems to tick all those boxes for me, as opposed to simplistic hard rock bands or classic rock like Styx.

However, I will definitely agree with whoever might've said it before that Iron Maiden has had a lot of prog moments throughout their lifespan. In fact, I can't actually think of an album which hasn't had a song that's made me go "ooh, very proggy!" (i.e. Sign Of The Cross).

thank you :p:

public property
09-02-2008, 08:28 AM
King Crimson are not technical in the fact of stright-up guitar-work.

They're more technical in the "ooh, 7 guitars layered onto each side, with those chromatic piano lines" technical. I never think of KC as technical, definitely simple when you dissect the instruments. Even teh drums are fairly simple.

Robert fripp busts out some sick moves on some of their stuff. Can't give you anything to look for right now though since I can't remember the names...

Slaytanic1993
09-02-2008, 06:46 PM
Well, yeah, but almost every guitarist (at one point) will do some technical(ish) stuff.

I still think that "progressive music = technical music" is a faulty, and almost ignorant, statement based on the "Golden Age of Prog" bands.

DaFjory
09-02-2008, 09:56 PM
With that said, there's only a tiny handful of opinions to go by in here to make my mind change even in the slightest, I'd like to see a global poll or something. That could decide it (although I ain't touching any of those prog forums with a bargepole they sound like such a stuck-up, toff-nosed bunch of pricks!)

Axegrinder#9
09-03-2008, 05:55 PM
Really, why the **** does this matter so much?

travis08087
09-03-2008, 06:02 PM
YES is a very good example of proggresive

Slaytanic1993
09-03-2008, 06:03 PM
Really, why the **** does this matter so much?

It doesn't really, but to call ( for example) Yes, rock, or to call Opeth, metal, is just a complete understatement of those bands.

ChillofWinter
09-05-2008, 02:40 PM
Here are some of the bands I think best define the prog genres (I am a huuuge progressive rock fan , no other genre comes close in my opinion)

Progressive Rock
Focus
Camel
Gentle Giant
Genesis (Peter Gabriel era)
Return to Forever
King Crimson
Emerson Lake and Palmer
Rush
YES


Progressive Metal
Dream Theater
Symphony X
Queensryche
Hydrotoxin
Aeryon
Conception
Opeth
Three
Planet X

JackyS
09-05-2008, 02:46 PM
Basically music that starts off alright and gets progressively worse the longer it goes on (which it will do....on and on)

xxdarrenxx
09-05-2008, 03:26 PM
lol sarcasm much?

Slaytanic1993
09-05-2008, 05:45 PM
Basically music that starts off alright and gets progressively worse the longer it goes on (which it will do....on and on)

*sarcastic clapping*

Woo-hoo, yep...all prog music goes on and on...

This is what I mean by people who stereotype all progressive music as "22 minute long songs, 5 per album" style.

guitar_maiden
09-08-2008, 02:07 PM
Art Rock... Pink Floyd, Rush, yes, Dream Theater, Coheed and Cambria ect...

HeavyMetaldude
09-10-2008, 07:30 AM
This is what I mean by people who stereotype all progressive music as "22 minute long songs, 5 per album" style.
You have to admit its good as far as stereotyping goes...

Even though lots or prog bands have songs that go less than 3 minutes.

sock_demon
09-10-2008, 09:58 AM
Your face is progressive music.




Yeow. You want some ice for that burn?

Neo Evil11
09-11-2008, 05:18 AM
Here are some of the bands I think best define the prog genres (I am a huuuge progressive rock fan , no other genre comes close in my opinion)

Progressive Rock
Focus
Camel
Gentle Giant
Genesis (Peter Gabriel era)
Return to Forever
King Crimson
Emerson Lake and Palmer
Rush
YES
Neal Morse
Transatlantic
Spock's beard


Progressive Metal
Dream Theater
Symphony X
Queensryche
Hydrotoxin
Aeryon
Tool
Conception
Opeth
Three
Planet X
Circus Maximus


updated a bit, have to go now :p: might edit later again