Playing over 13th and Half Diminished chords


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ramm_ty
09-30-2008, 05:52 PM
I'm doing an improv in a couple of weeks over the following chord changes:

C6/9 - Dm7 - G9 - CM7 - F#7 - Fm7 - Bb13 - Em7 - A7 - D9 - G13 - C9 - FM7 - F#m7(b5) - B7 - Em7 - D9 - G13 - C6 - G7

Seems to me like I don't have many options over the 13 chords considering they're supposed to contain 7 notes.

Am I restricted to Bb Mixo over the Bb13 chord? If not, what are my other options?

Also, could I play an F# Diminished Scale (Either whole-half or half-whole) over the F#m7(b5)? I understand you'd typically play F# Locrian.

Thanks in advance

Archeo Avis
09-30-2008, 07:15 PM
Am I restricted to Bb Mixo over the Bb13 chord? If not, what are my other options?

Is it a modal piece? If not, I don't know why you're approaching it modally. I'm hesitant to look at the chord in a vacuum, since the content leading up to and away from the chord is going to determine what any one approach sounds like. What piece is this progression from?

ramm_ty
09-30-2008, 08:14 PM
EDIT: It's not from a Gershwin piece. I actually have no idea where it's from, but I doubt it's a modal piece.

I wasn't approaching it thinking modally, I just don't know how else to go about it. I realize the first 4 chords are in C major, and I can just play C major over them, but from there I start treating all the chords seperately. i.e F# Mixo, Fm Pentatonic, Bb Mixo, and so on. Or I just play the arpeggios, but thats pretty boring.

I'm fairly new to playing over changes like this. Could you perhaps describe how you would go about playing over such a progression?

mdc
10-01-2008, 03:01 PM
Am I restricted to Bb Mixo over the Bb13 chord? If not, what are my other options?
This has been on my mind for a while, so when I got home I vamped this chord on my loop pedal. This is what I came up with....

Yep, a theoretically correct scale is Bb Mixolydian, but I tried throwing in some chromatic passing notes to see if they sounded good.... and they do.

The b6 and b9 sound good. Sooo, you could, in essence throw in some Bb Phrigian Dominant.

As a side note, simply use Bb maj Pentatonic. I preferred using G min Pentatonic shape 1. If like myself your this way inclined you could come up with some pretty insane PG style skips by joining shapes 1 & 2 or 3 & 4 etc, together. I have small hands, so I do those licks starting at 10th fret A string.

Have a crack at it mate.

Edit: Upon some more thinking, I did that jam in abit of a rush cuz of other things to do, as a result I didn't try a b3 or #4. So maybe Lydian Dominant for the latter note, and maybe Dorian, since it still retains the major 6th.

This is totally geared towards your question, therefore I'm looking at the chord in isolation as opposed to Archeo.

wolflen
10-01-2008, 04:49 PM
C6/9 - Dm7 - G9 - CM7 -
I 7 ii 7 V7 I 7 C major

F#7 - Fm7 - Bb13
#II 7 ii 7 V 7 Eb Major

Em7 - A7 D Major
- ii 7 V7

D9- G13 - C9 - FM7
VI 7 II 7 V7 I 7 F Major

- F#m7(b5) - B7 - Em7 E minor
ii 7 V7 i 7

D9 - G13 - C6 - G7 C Major
II 7 V7 I 7 V 7

this would be one approach to the progression...once the key centers are set ... you can use substitute chords around the basic key steps...

play well

wolf

Galvanise69
10-01-2008, 11:23 PM
It seems the only 13th chords are Dominant chords, so a half-whole probably would not be a bad choice over these chords, or Mixo.

Im not quite sure about the Phrygian Dominant, it contains the b13. the guitarists your playing with may well leave our the 11 (quite probably) and the 9th.

Lydian Dominant would be a great choice, you could intergrade this with half-Whole.

The only two notes that differ are b9 and #9

BBell
10-02-2008, 12:03 AM
13th chords are dom7 chords, so yes you could use mixo... but because its a dom7 chord, you can pretty much use any tension you want. Try out some altered scales, or even some ethnic/synthetic scales, or create your own with combining tetra scales. Sky is the limit.

Galvanise69
10-02-2008, 12:33 AM
^ I agree with this, but I think, because there is a defined 13th in the chord, you should focus your attention on the b13, i.e Phrygian Dominant, mbey if your going to play Phrygian Dominant, just replace the b13 with a nat 13/6. So

1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7

Mixo b2, fifth mode of Harmonic Major, 1 2 3 4 5 b6 7

Of course the b13 could be used in ascending up to the 13.

Im assuming because 13 chords, with all extensions, cant actually be voiced on a guitar

1 3 5 7 9 11 13 - 8 notes

Im assuming both the 11th and 5th will be omitted.

So: 1 3 7 9 13

Lydian Dominant would be a perfect choice. Mabey to straight, thats all up to you to decide.

ramm_ty
10-02-2008, 08:17 PM
I appreciate the comments guys, I'll try out these ideas.

To wolf: So you just grouped together chords that were in a common key? I was thinking about trying this, but the F#7 to Fm7 change immedietly made me go 'What the f*ck'

Galvanise69
10-03-2008, 06:53 AM
Can somone give me an explanation of the changes?

Changes:

C6/9 - I
Dm7 - ii
G9 - V
CM7 - I
F#7
Fm7 ii (Min 3rd sub)
Bb13 V (min 3rd sub)
Em7 - I chord family sub/ii of D Maj
A7 V (the 3 chord are Dom 7's resolving down by fifths)
D9 V
G13 V
C9 V
FM7 down to a I in Fmaj
F#m7(b5) Raising of the I root
B7 V
Em7 I - in E min
D9 vii in Emin V/V in C
G13 V
C6 I
G7 V

Tonal centers being: Cmaj, Fmaj, and E Minor.

The F was worked into by resolving to E-7, a sub for Cmaj7. Making the Emin the ii of D maj, resolving to A7, than down in Dominant 7's by fifths to A7 - D7 - G7 - C7 than to Fmaj7.

Out of Fmaj7 by raising the root of the Fmaj7, making F#-7b5 than using that as a half dim ii, going up to the V, B7, than down to the i - Emin 7 than down a whole-step to the vii which is Dominant in a Minor key, than resolving Dominants down to the I's of themself, down by fifths, untill we get to G7, being the V of the first chord

Am I looking at this right again, they look interesting changes, be great to play. :D

Also, can somone please direct me as to wheather Ive done this right? And correct what I havent done right :confused:

wolflen
10-03-2008, 11:07 AM
To wolf: So you just grouped together chords that were in a common key? I was thinking about trying this, but the F#7 to Fm7 change immedietly made me go 'What the f*ck'

I view F#7 as a "dominate flat 5" substitution ... common harmonic device in jazz harmony...

in this example...C7 to Fmi7 would be the natural"diatonic" progression...we substitute the C7 with F#7 /Gb7..a flat fifth of C7...it works very nice in voice leading and frees you to play and think in more than "one key at a time"....look into this when time permits...it takes time and patients to absorbe the concept...but worth the effort...

play well

wolf

Punk Poser
10-03-2008, 03:35 PM
Here's something you can use for half diminished chords. Minor 3rd up from the root melodic minor. So if you see a Dm7b5, go up a minor 3rd which is F and you can use F melodic minor.

TimmyPage06
10-03-2008, 07:02 PM
There is actually a scale known as the Mixolydian b13. It's the 5th mode of the melodic minor (or the jazz minor, to clarify - the same up and down.)

For Bb it would be Bb, C, D, Eb, F, Gb, A, Bb.

Also available to you would be the sheer Altered scale as the chord's extension does have a variation to it. The altered scale is the 7th mode of the Jazz minor and can be used to create alot of tension on the altered chords to be resolved in another bar.

The general rule for it is Root, flat everything.

Archeo Avis
10-03-2008, 07:08 PM
Also available to you would be the sheer Altered scale as the chord's extension does have a variation to it. The altered scale is the 7th mode of the Jazz minor and can be used to create alot of tension on the altered chords to be resolved in another bar.

I would be very hesitant to apply it over a 13 chord, especially if I didn't know how the rhythm section was going to approach it. It would clash terribly with the 9th and 11th. Even if the rhythm section omitted them I can't imagine it sounding good next to the 13th.

Save the altered scale for altered dominant chords.

TimmyPage06
10-03-2008, 07:17 PM
I would be very hesitant to apply it over a 13 chord, especially if I didn't know how the rhythm section was going to approach it. It would clash terribly with the 9th and 11th. Even if the rhythm section omitted them I can't imagine it sounding good next to the 13th.

Save the altered scale for altered dominant chords.

That's right too. I've had like 5 hours of jazz theory in a row today about altered dominant chords, and I completely misread all of that as within a b13 chord, not just a 13.

Archeo Avis
10-03-2008, 07:25 PM
That's right too. I've had like 5 hours of jazz theory in a row today about altered dominant chords, and I completely misread all of that as within a b13 chord, not just a 13.

b13 would be a different story. Strangely, I've never actually used a b13 in any of my work...I must try it now.

rollininrhythm
10-03-2008, 08:21 PM
Need moar details. Im assuming its jazz, but what instrument are you playing this on?

ramm_ty
10-05-2008, 02:51 PM
Need moar details. Im assuming its jazz, but what instrument are you playing this on?Guitar, sir.

Galvanise69
10-05-2008, 05:47 PM
Archeo: What would you suggest for the 13th chords?

Straight Mixo? Lydian Dominant? Half-Whole?

ramm_tv: You cant explain those changes for me, could you?

Archeo Avis
10-05-2008, 08:17 PM
Archeo: What would you suggest for the 13th chords?

Straight Mixo? Lydian Dominant? Half-Whole?

ramm_tv: You cant explain those changes for me, could you?

I couldn't make a recommendation without knowing exactly how the chord is being played. A 13 chord voiced without a 9th and 11th (more common) would give you a few options regarding alterations, but I'd still be weary about going too crazy because the rest of the band may interpret it in more diatonic terms, and you'd clash horribly. If it were one of my own compositions, and I didn't have to worry about predicting what the other musicians were playing, I'd probably voice it without the 5th, 9th, and 11th, and take a few liberties by going for a lydian dominant approach (my favorite choice over a non-altered dominant chord). Lydian dominant is a bit less than conventional over a 13 chord, but I find that it sounds quite good given the right context.

A 13 chord voiced in full (uncommon) constrains you quite a bit, and I'd probably just follow the chord tones (which ends up being the entire scale).

Galvanise69
10-05-2008, 09:04 PM
I assumed it would be voiced without the 11th, not to sure about the 9th, you said you assumed the 9th would be omitted, why?

Would it be more common to omitt the 5th, and 11th.

But without knowing if the 13th chord is being voiced in full, as you said, by other instruments, you would say a safest, but still not a bland mixo, would be Lydian Dominant?

If the 9th is to be omitted is there anything really bad if you use a Half-Whole, you mentioned the fact that it could clash with the other instruments, or did I interpret that wrong?

What if it was voiced in a Qurtal fashion? as in 1 - 4/11 - 7 - 3 - 13

Would that be very likley?

Just to confirm, you would assume that when playing the 13th chord, the 9th, and the 11th would be omitted, (what about the 5th)

You said in your own compositions, you would omitt the 5th, 9th, and 11th.

Obviously, if 11th is omitted, it gives a perfect pathway for a Lydian Dominant.

Archeo Avis
10-05-2008, 09:13 PM
I assumed it would be voiced without the 11th, not to sure about the 9th, you said you assumed the 9th would be omitted, why?

Would it be more common to omitt the 5th, and 11th.

But without knowing if the 13th chord is being voiced in full, as you said, by other instruments, you would say a safest, but still not a bland mixo, would be Lydian Dominant?

If the 9th is to be omitted is there anything really bad if you use a Half-Whole, you mentioned the fact that it could clash with the other instruments, or did I interpret that wrong?

It would be very common to omit the 5th and 11th, and I'd be more that slightly pissed off if someone refused to omit the 9th, since it would prevent me from using a #9, which is a fantastic sound over a dominant chord.

If I knew that the chord would be voiced 1-3-(5)-b7-13, I would probably approach it as if it were an altered chord. If I was dealing with the V chord in a minor progression, I might use lydian dominant as well. If I didn't know how it was going to be voiced, or if I knew it would contain the 9th or 11th, I would probably just approach it diatonically. You could call it "playing mixolydian", but I generally don't like to think in modal terms unless it really makes it easier (e.g. Saying "play lydian dominant over the V chord" is just easier than describing the altered notes in relation to the tonic, even though you aren't actually playing modally)

Galvanise69
10-05-2008, 09:25 PM
Nah, thats fair. If the 9th was omitted, as you state it commonly is, would there be any problems using Half-Whole?

So, if you new it was going to simply omitt the 5th and 11th, you would play Lydian Dominant.

If the 5th, 9th, and 11th were omitted, you could use a Half-Whole, or Lydian Dominant (of course theres only one note differance)

If it was a full 13th chord, you would just play chord tones, and try to get the most you could out of that.

I guess, also, you could take Dominant scales, with b13's and just for the purpose of soloing over a 13th chord, make the 13th natural, so:

Phrygian Dominant Nat 6th: 1 b2 3 4 5 6 b7

Locrian Nat 6th, Dominant: 1 b2 3 4 b5 6 b7

ect.

As I bilive you already stated in one of my other threads, a lot of these scales would be best described as altered scales.

Also, if somone refused to omitt the 9th, could you still use the #9, just as a ascending tone to the 3rd, or descending to the 9th, strict passing tone.

ramm_ty
10-05-2008, 10:56 PM
ramm_tv: You cant explain those changes for me, could you?Your guess is as good as mine dude.

Galvanise69
10-05-2008, 11:01 PM
Well my only guess was this:

Changes:

C6/9 - I

Dm7 - ii

G9 - V

CM7 - I

F#7

Fm7 ii (Min 3rd sub)

Bb13 V (min 3rd sub)

Em7 - I chord family sub/ii of D Maj

A7 V (the 3 chord are Dom 7's resolving down by fifths)

D9 V

G13 V

C9 V

FM7 down to a I in Fmaj

F#m7(b5) Raising of the I root

B7 V

Em7 I - in E min

D9 vii in Emin V/V in C

G13 V

C6 I

G7 V

Tonal centers being: Cmaj, Fmaj, and E Minor

What's the tune?