**The Modes** Summary & Examples **NEW**


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xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 07:35 AM
***The Modes***
Summary of Modes & Examples
Written by xxdarrenxx, and rewritten with proper grammar & spelling by pannenkoeken

I've been seeing a lot of mode related topics here. So I decided to make a short list of their different characteristics and the way how I feel about them. Feel free too add Examples (especially in different genres)

Stop Hearing & Start listening!
This is what my guitar teacher told me when I played horribly out of scale through key changes. I was like wtf is the difference, to which he replied: everything.
Hearing music or sound is hearing a plane flying overhead, or the sounds of cars passing by. Listening to music is instead of hearing a car, hearing what the engine is (v8, v12 etcetera).

If you want to learn modes, you really have to listen to music. Hum every note of the melody along with the song (or follow along in your head if you’re not a good singer), whatever you prefer. Determine at which note u get the "mode" feeling. This worked for me. When I really listened, note by note, I could hum the modes (and/or hear them in my head) within a week or 2, because I had them linked with the modes in my mind.

This is easier then it sounds, you just have to open your mind.



The List
(type ctrl+f for search and type the prefix listed between the brackets)
(Command(apple logo button) + f, for apple users.

[ x1 ] - My Theory on modes-
(explanation to why they are difficult for 1 and easy for others)
[ x2 ] - The Modes of the Major Scale -
[ x3 ] - Dominant 7th Option - by demonofthenight -
[ x4 ] --------

x1My Theory on modes

This is my personal view on modes. It may not be the same as your view. If your personal view of modes works for you: that’s fine. I just felt like sharing my own.

I want to compare modes to colours. They have a lot in common. You probably learned about colours in school.

You have the 3 primary colours (red, blue and yellow), 3 secondary colours (green, purple and orange), and the outsider, black.

In music you have 3 Major modes (Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian), 3 minor modes (Dorian, Phrygian and Aeolian), and the outsider, Locrian.

Colours are all derived from 1 colour (white) and the modes are all defined from 1 scale: The major scale. Both colors and modes are used to make the final composition more interesting and expressive.

We learned colours at a young age, and that's why we can acknowledge them as easy as saying 1 2 3 (which wasn't so easy before u learned to talk ). When you were young, your father probably never said “Look that's a fire engine and it is Vermillion.” Similarly, you probably never had your dad saying “Listen to that song, son, it is Phrygian dominant!” He either said it's a happy song or a sad song. I believe this to be the reason why anyone (even people with zilch musical knowledge) can understand these as if they were born with the fact that majors and minors exist.

On to the "Difficult" modes
Phrygian Dominant and melodic minor etc. aren't so easy to "hear" because they aren’t popularly used. Unless you listen to a lot of jazz records, there's a good chance u never heard them in your life. In the "Colours" perspective, if you aren't a painter and you see Vermillion, Scarlet, and Crimson, you'd probably just call them all red. Just like modes, you will probably call them all minor or major, but subconsciously they do play on your feelings. You can probably hear a Mixolydian song and think it's amazing, even if u don't know the theory behind it. Same with painting, you can see different shades of red (like in a sunset) and find it beautiful, yet you can't name all the colours beyond referring to them as different shades of red/yellow/orange. The key here is to listen to the songs that I listed as examples of the modes, and connect them to the mode's theory or sound so you can tell when they are being used as well as apply them. It takes a lot of repetition for it to truly sink in.


X2The Modes of the Major scale

Here are the modes. The flavour notes are the ones that colour it, and are based on their respective root note (the new root of the mode). I included the relationship between the notes on a few modes when they are also based on a chord made of their respective root notes and other chords/notes in the mode/scale. I also included the intervals behind the names based on the major scale (you take the major scale, and you flatten/raise the notes from it as described in the intervals behind the mode name).


**Ionian** (R, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
(Major Scale, Happy, full of joy, 1 of Satch his favourite in his melodies and most of his legato runs)
Flavour note: Maj3rd (4 half steps from the root) relation to Maj7th (11 half steps from the root)

Joe satriani - Friends
Joe satriani - Always with you, Always with Me
Joe Satriani - Starry Night (Main melody)
John Petrucci - Wishfull Thinking
Yankee doodle
Happy B'day


[B]**Dorian** (R, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7)
(Hope, soulful, very "emotional" in the stereotypical way of emotional, used a lot in solo's by rock guitar players)
Flavour note: Maj6th (9 half steps from the root)

David Gilmour - Marooned (especially this version reflects dorian very well)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W6hBI1SAL4&feature=related)
Miles Davis - So What
Joe Satriani - Made of tears (Main melody)
The Beatles - Eleanor Rigby
Greensleeves (traditional)


**Phrygian** (R, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7)
(spanish, mysterious in a dark way)
Flavour note: min2nd (1 half step from the root) relation to the perfect 5th (7half steps from the root)

Joe Satriani - War (main melody mixed with a bit of phrygian dominant)
The Doors - not to touch this earth
Al Di Meola - Race with devil on spanish highway
Paco de lucia - Bulerias (this song is not true phrygian but also adds other tones borrowed from the spanish 8th tone scale, but it definitely has some phrygian qualities to it;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCtHxyvQrH4&feature=related
Steve Vai - Building the church ( Main melody&riff mixed with a slight lydian at a few points)
Jefferson Airplane - White Rabbit
Zelda tune - Spirit Temple (OoT) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-jT6T59rYw


**Lydian** (R, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7)
(mysterious in a more of happy/innocent way, typical Vai sound, it's happy but " Out there" as if it sounds like ur searching for something)
Flavour note: Tritone (6 half steps from the root) relation to a maj7th (11 half steps from the root)

Steve Vai - Triple neck guitar solo especially the first 5 minutes or so and especially the riff/chord progression that he's soloing over has a very strong lydian sound)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjRI9pjj_68
Joe Satriani - Flying in a blue dream; main melody is lydian in different keys.
Steve Vai - Balls of Gold (Intro Riff + Main melody)
John Petrucci - Curve (the very first riff and the first melody) Heavily borrowed from Satriani's Flying in a blue dream from a compositional view(lydian in various keys and going in a big legato run which is also lydian at about 1:43 in the linked video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OSrvdaWBhc


**Mixolydian** (R, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7)
(Happy in an uplifting way, Cool way, not as "cheesy over the top happy" as ionian)
Flavour note: Maj3rd (4 half steps from the root) relation to a min7th (10 half steps from the root)

Joe Satriani - Summer song; main melody and solo's
John Petrucci - Glassgow kiss (intro riff and some of the melody)
Eric Johnson - Cliffs of dover (Main melody and most of the song)
The Cult - She Sells Sanctuary
The Beatles - Dear prudence (verse)
Roy Orbison - Pretty Woman (main riff, as well as the general feel)


**Aeolian**(R, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7)
(the minor scale, melancholic, sometimes sad)
Flavour note:min6th (8 half steps from the root)

Iron Maiden - Almost any song of them (Fear of the Dark, number of the beast)
Judas Priest - Breaking the law
Frank Gambale - Little Charmer (intro riff and first melody)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf39sCLIGpc&feature=related
Buckethead - Soothsayer
Led Zeppelin - Stairway to Heaven
Dream Theater - The Ministry of the Lost Souls (intro synths + Following arpeggiated clean guitar riff) as well as most of the song.
Dream Theater - Forsaken


**Locrian**(R, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7)
(b5 note, diminished, dissonant sounding)
I'm sorry to say that I don't know any songs which strongly represent locrian. Maybe death metal like necrophagist. If someone here has a good example of a strong locrian sound, then please tell me and I will put it here.

xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 07:35 AM
X3Dominant 7th Options

*lydian dominant (fourth mode of the melodic minor scale), Superlocrian (seventh mode of melodic minor scale) and Phrygian Dominant (fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale) also work in special occasions.


Lydian dominant is just your usual Lydian mode, but with a flat seventh. This is preferred by some musicians as they believe it's more consonant. They get this belief from the fact that the two tritones made by this mode makes a third with the seventh (which is essential for that dominant feel) and the #4, which is actually a good triton, as it moves well to the perfect fifth. Whether it is or isn't a good choice is up to you.
Scale Formula: R 2 3 #4 5 6 b7

Phrygian dominant only works over a functioning dominant chord in a minor progression. This is more common in Caribbean style jazz (You know, the kind with calypso style rhythms). Phrygian dominant sounds eastern, sort of spicy and sort of dark. This is due to minor sixth (spiciness) and the minor second (darkness).
Scale Formula: R b2 3 4 5 b6 b7


Mixolydian flat sixth works in the same situation as a Phrygian dominant, but some people prefer it as this mode does not contain the dissonant b2. Once again, it is completely your choice to use this.
Scale Formula: R 2 3 4 5 b6 b7

Superlocrian works too. As that b4 of the Superlocrian mode is enharmonic with the M3 of the dominant chord. This mode can give a dominant chord (which is naturally bright) a darker, bluesier feel. The augmented seconds (enharmonic to minor thirds) over dominant chords generally sounds very bluesy and so does the flat fifth. I'd recommend you avoided the minor second (too dark) and used a perfect fifth (even if the mode's formula doesn't include it). This mode works best over non-functioning dominant chords and altered dominant chords (x7b9, x7#9 and so on).
Scale Formula: R b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 07:36 AM
**Reserved for more post if needed**

demonofthenight
11-11-2008, 07:39 AM
It'd be nice if you included more of the stuff I wrote... Still your thread

**will delete post if more stuff needs to be added**

xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 07:48 AM
It'd be nice if you included more of the stuff I wrote... Still your thread

**will delete post if more stuff needs to be added**

Yes, I maybe will, but this is aimed for the beginner. And i Know when I started out playing guitar; All the theory guides I know see as "yes I know this"/ easy etc. were so hard to understand because they focused on all the aspects of the modes. They were so detailed and their's a saying in the netherlands (maybe it's the same in english)

" I couldn't saw the forrest through the trees" Because all those details are, unless u have a high iq or a fair knowledge of theory already, shrouding the view on the main essence.

To much to take in 1 go.

Johnljones7443
11-11-2008, 08:38 AM
Only thing I have a problem with is... 'Superlocrian sort of works too. As that b4 of the superlocrian mode is enharmonic with the M3 of the dominant chord.'

What do you mean sort of works? It does work. I see no reason for the words 'sort of' here.

Also, the line about b4 being enharmonic to the M3 is redundant. The b4 IS the M3 as it applies to this scale. There is no reason to look at it as being a diminished 4th. I really don't understand why anyone would look at it like that given you already know it 'sort of works' over a dominant chord. Do yourself a favour get rid of the ridiculous notion that this contains a b4 and a b3. They are a major 3rd and augmented 2nd respectively.

demonofthenight
11-11-2008, 08:47 AM
Only thing I have a problem with is... 'Superlocrian sort of works too. As that b4 of the superlocrian mode is enharmonic with the M3 of the dominant chord.'

What do you mean sort of works? It does work. I see no reason for the words 'sort of' here.

Also, the line about b4 being enharmonic to the M3 is redundant. The b4 IS the M3 as it applies to this scale. There is no reason to look at it as being a diminished 4th. I really don't understand why anyone would look at it like that given you already know it 'sort of works' over a dominant chord. Do yourself a favour get rid of the ridiculous notion that this contains a b4 and a b3. They are a major 3rd and augmented 2nd respectively.Lets be frank, a scale with an augmented second also with a minor second? That can't be right

To be perfectly right nomenclature wise, as each new note has its own degree, that note is a diminished fourth. You'd never write G# superlocrian as G# A Ax C D E F, so why would you describe it like that degree wise, as if they share the same place as the second degree? Its G# different degree A different degree B. Sure it's being pedantic, but it's also being technically correct.

But practically you'd never use it as a diminished fourth, you'd always use it as a major third, as it's context is almost always with a dominant chord.

*hides scared behind a flame shield*

Johnljones7443
11-11-2008, 09:09 AM
Lets be frank, a scale with an augmented second also with a minor second? That can't be right.

Yes it can, and it is.

To be perfectly right nomenclature wise, as each new note has its own degree, that note is a diminished fourth. You'd never write G# superlocrian as G# A Ax C D E F, so why would you describe it like that degree wise, as if they share the same place as the second degree? Its G# different degree A different degree B. Sure it's being pedantic, but it's also being technically correct.

Where does this 'each new note has its own degree' thing come from? Each new note has its own function would be more along the right lines. This is why we write the majority of scales with each new note having its own degree, because that's how they function. Scales aren't written with a new note for a different degree for the sake of looking pretty, it's because that is their function. The same applies to altered dominant, we write it to describe each notes function.

Given this, and given the 'diminished 4th' of 'super locrian' functions as a major third, then you are completely technically incorrect.

You would write it G# - A - Ax - B# - D - Dx - F. I don't know why there is a C in your example if you're trying to disprove my claim.

But practically you'd never use it as a diminished fourth, you'd always use it as a major third, as it's context is almost always with a dominant chord.

Then why do you insist on calling it a diminished fourth? The note IS a major third, so call it a major third. Anything else is just completely illogical. You're completely contradicting yourself, on one hand you insist on giving each new note a new name (I'm assuming this is because this is how they function, right? You wouldn't call the major 7th of G, Gb for example - we do this to accurately describe function, it has nothing to do with just 'giving each note a new letter'), and then you insist on calling the major third of altered dominant a diminished 4th, which doesn't describe its function?

I apologise if I am (and I am) being an asshole here, but it boggles my mind that anyone would call a note which is a major third, a diminished fourth.

I know everyone, including me, is sick of these function arguments - so I apologize to the OP for turning his thread into one. My original intention was just to point out to you that you were wrong and your sentence made no sense.

demonofthenight
11-11-2008, 09:31 AM
Yes it can, and it is.Well, Um, ah fuck it never mind.
Where does this 'each new note has its own degree' thing come from? Each new note has its own function would be more along the right lines. This is why we write the majority of scales with each new note having its own degree, because that's how they function. Scales aren't written with a new note for a different degree for the sake of looking pretty, it's because that is their function. The same applies to altered dominant, we write it to describe each notes function. Exactly that. It looks pretty when writted down and when scored on a musical staff. Otherwise we have double sharps and other oddities.
Keep in mind our music theory was devised by guys who obviously had either OCD or asperger's and were obsessed with order and form.

Given this, and given the 'diminished 4th' of 'super locrian' functions as a major third, then you are completely technically incorrect.Just because it functions as a major third and just because guys like ellington (was it him who started using superlocrian this way?) used it as such, doesnt mean its technically written as such.
Keep in mind the melodic minor was devised 400 (?) years ago by a guy (bach?) who had no use for the superlocrian scale or for augmented seconds. He would have noted the scale as I have suggested it to be noted. Why would he note is as anything different? He didnt even have a name for this mode as the "locrian" concept came to music centuries later.

You would write it G# - A - Ax - B# - D - Dx - F. I don't know why there is a C in your example if you're trying to disprove my claim.Yeah I made a mistake there, thanks for the fix. BTW, can you honestly say that scale doesnt look messed up? Two fifth degrees (neither of which a perfect fifth) and two second degrees?
Then why do you insist on calling it a diminished fourth? The note IS a major third, so call it a major third. Anything else is just completely illogical. You're completely contradicting yourself, on one hand you insist on giving each new note a new name (I'm assuming this is because this is how they function, right? You wouldn't call the major 7th of G, Gb for example - we do this to accurately describe function, it has nothing to do with just 'giving each note a new letter'), and then you insist on calling the major third of altered dominant a diminished 4th, which doesn't describe its function?Because when playing a piano there is no Cb button, but there is a Cb note everywhere else in music. So why not call that note a B? Because it's wrong.
It's the same situation here. Just because it seems illogical in the practical sense, doesnt make it illogical in the theoretical sense.
The strictest of strict nomenclature says each new note has a new degree. This means the degrees of the supelocrian scale are 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8. This makes the most sense when writing it out (can we only use double sharps when we have to). This makes the most sense when we see it written on a music staff. Why cant it make the most sense now? Once again, keep in mind our nomenclature was devised by some OCD ridden guy from like 400 years ago.

I apologise if I am (and I am) being an asshole here, but it boggles my mind that anyone would call a note which is a major third, a diminished fourth.Nah man. I respect your opinion. Hell, this is probably one of the only things we disagree on. I think. It's cool.

I'm probably making no sense (as in less than usual). So sorry in advance. I'm tired, hungry and on a down. I'm just not having fun.

Pannenkoeken
11-11-2008, 11:54 AM
Ugh, the original post could use some grammar and spelling fixes.

So, this all is very nice, but why does it talk about various modes without explaining what they actually are...?

xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 12:00 PM
Ugh, the original post could use some grammar and spelling fixes.

So, this all is very nice, but why does it talk about various modes without explaining what they actually are...?


Define "what they are". I'm showing how they sound and about their characters.

Pannenkoeken
11-11-2008, 12:06 PM
Define "what they are". I'm showing how they sound and about their characters.
Like, what notes do they include?

edit: Interval information would be nice in this summary.

xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 12:13 PM
Like, what notes do they include?

edit: Interval information would be nice in this summary.


kk ty, yes I will add that too. I just wrote it yesterday so it isn't perfect yet. Thanks for the help.

I know my grammar isn't very good. I dunno, is there something like a grammar checker or something?

Pannenkoeken
11-11-2008, 12:18 PM
kk ty, yes I will add that too. I just wrote it yesterday so it isn't perfect yet. Thanks for the help.

I know my grammar isn't very good. I dunno, is there something like a grammar checker or something?
Want me to type up a version with proper grammar and send it to you?

xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 12:25 PM
Want me to type up a version with proper grammar and send it to you?

Oh that would be awesome. I added the intervals behind the modes. I think this is the best way, since I assume that if u wanna learn about modes, you probably know at least the major scale.

Pannenkoeken
11-11-2008, 12:30 PM
Oh that would be awesome. I added the intervals behind the modes. I think this is the best way, since I assume that if u wanna learn about modes, you probably know at least the major scale.
Yeah, that's good enough to help people apply the modes.

Okay, I'll send you it in a little bit.

fnmpm
11-11-2008, 04:35 PM
Just a minor touch, you could add "Irish-sounding and funk-inspired" to mixolydian description. Also, "bluesy" for dorian.

xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 04:57 PM
Just a minor touch, you could add "Irish-sounding and funk-inspired" to mixolydian description. Also, "bluesy" for dorian.

Yes but these don't define the modes. It's the other way around, the modes defined the sounds in their genre's. I was thinking about adding genre's to where these are used, but passively. I don't want it too sound like they are or can only be used in those genre's.

20Tigers
11-11-2008, 06:22 PM
kk ty, yes I will add that too. I just wrote it yesterday so it isn't perfect yet. Thanks for the help.

I know my grammar isn't very good. I dunno, is there something like a grammar checker or something?
I'm pretty sure microsoft word has a grammar check. Copy and paste?

xxdarrenxx
11-11-2008, 08:05 PM
I'm pretty sure microsoft word has a grammar check. Copy and paste?


Already rewritten by Pannenkoeken :)

And MY windows is illegal, so I don't have word.

one vision
11-11-2008, 09:37 PM
Good lesson.

I think it's worth explaining the difference between "Aeolian" and regular "Minor". A lot of people think that playing Aeolian is the same thing as playing regular minor. I know I thought the same thing.

Good stuff though. It's good that you've included a lot of examples.

:cheers:

Galvanise69
11-11-2008, 09:55 PM
^ What do you define as the difference?

In classical terminology "Regular" minor, can reffer to Harmonic Minor.

Or Aeolian rarley use's non-diatonic chords, vii0, V ect.

Natural Minor often uses non-diatonics, especially the vii0 and V (dom)

one vision
11-11-2008, 09:59 PM
I wasn't just talking about the scale, I'm talking about the music as a whole. In "regular" minor, there is a major dominant chord to resolve stronly to the tonic (almost always). If a song has no major dominant, I'd call it aeolian. So I guess what I'm saying is that regular minor uses harmonic minor and natural minor scales together, whether for just harmony, or melody also. Aeolian has no major 7th. I hope I explained that correctly.

Archeo Avis
11-11-2008, 10:11 PM
^ What do you define as the difference?

Functional harmony. The difference between tonal and modal music in general.

Galvanise69
11-11-2008, 10:22 PM
^^ Thats what I meant, In Aeolian, generally no diatonic chords are used, instead of a G7 - C-7 often there is no V - I resolution, only a v - i i.e G-7 - C-7.

Natural Minor the V is made dominant to increase resolution to the i ect.

Also, in regurds to the lesson, I would say, nice post, a few things. Would the name Mixolydian b6 be better seen as Aeolian Dominant?

Considering its a mode of scale with a Major 3rd and a Minor 7 (which makes a mode Dominant).

Also, I assume this was intentional, but for the "advanced modes" you didnt include the formula.

Not picking, I am just trying to provide some improvments.

I like the analegy of modes to colours.

Also, what did you mean by this?

Overture 1928; At 2:22 (see video link below) He plays in my opinion a super tasty solo. The general rule is to start on the 2nd degree for Dorian which in this song would be F#, but he starts on the D#. This note gives character to the Dorian mode, because if it was a D it would be F# Aeolian. Starting on the D# and moving up to the F# creates that typical "Dorian Tension".
So theoretically, this isn't Dorian, but because of the way he plays with the listener’s ear (with the D# to the F#), it has a Dorian sound (which is a perfect example of "bending the rules").

Yep, second degree of the major scale for dorian. Im assuming the piece is in E Major, he starts on the Major 7th which is non-diatonic to dorian.

"This note gives character to the Dorian mode, because if it was a D it would be F# Aeolian. Starting on the D# and moving up to the F# creates that typical "Dorian Tension". "

Especially this bit I think needs more explaining. You've already said D# is non-diatonic to the dorian key were in, but than your saying moving from D# to F# creates a typical dorian tension.

Anyhow, I just think it needs slightly better explaining.

xxdarrenxx
11-12-2008, 05:37 AM
^^ Thats what I meant, In Aeolian, generally no diatonic chords are used, instead of a G7 - C-7 often there is no V - I resolution, only a v - i i.e G-7 - C-7.

Natural Minor the V is made dominant to increase resolution to the i ect.

Also, in regurds to the lesson, I would say, nice post, a few things. Would the name Mixolydian b6 be better seen as Aeolian Dominant?

Considering its a mode of scale with a Major 3rd and a Minor 7 (which makes a mode Dominant).

Also, I assume this was intentional, but for the "advanced modes" you didnt include the formula.

Not picking, I am just trying to provide some improvments.

I like the analegy of modes to colours.

Also, what did you mean by this?

Overture 1928; At 2:22 (see video link below) He plays in my opinion a super tasty solo. The general rule is to start on the 2nd degree for Dorian which in this song would be F#, but he starts on the D#. This note gives character to the Dorian mode, because if it was a D it would be F# Aeolian. Starting on the D# and moving up to the F# creates that typical "Dorian Tension".
So theoretically, this isn't Dorian, but because of the way he plays with the listener’s ear (with the D# to the F#), it has a Dorian sound (which is a perfect example of "bending the rules").

Yep, second degree of the major scale for dorian. Im assuming the piece is in E Major, he starts on the Major 7th which is non-diatonic to dorian.

"This note gives character to the Dorian mode, because if it was a D it would be F# Aeolian. Starting on the D# and moving up to the F# creates that typical "Dorian Tension". "

Especially this bit I think needs more explaining. You've already said D# is non-diatonic to the dorian key were in, but than your saying moving from D# to F# creates a typical dorian tension.

Anyhow, I just think it needs slightly better explaining.

Yes Yes tyvm for the Crit.

On the dominant 7th options; I was thinking about them what would be best. Should I base the formula's of those on the Cmajor scale?

And on the petrucci thing, I know it's hard to explain cause the solo is simple, but it's effect is bending rules, and I could analyze every degree as well as how they give the sound over each chord, but then it would be a page long lol.

I will give it another look though.

Galvanise69
11-12-2008, 06:06 AM
The formula's should'nt be based on any scale.

The melodic pattern created using those formula's will be the same in any key, so like so:

Modes of the Melodic Minor
Melodic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Phrygian Nat 6th: 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian Augmented: 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
Lydian Dominant: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
Aeolian Dominant/Mixolydian b13: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian Nat 2nd: 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Super-Locrian: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

Harmonic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Locrian Nat 6th: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
Ionian Augmented: 1 2 3 4 #5 6 7
Dorian #4: 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
Phyrgian Dominant: 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian #2: 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7
Ultra-Locrian: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7

ect.

Sorry, did you mean when describing them to compare them the the modes of the Major Scale?

In that case I would, Melodic Minor (in my view, not that that's right) Melodic Minor is compared to dorian, with a restored Leading Tone, (not that this is the purpose for its creation)

Harmonic Minor is of course Aeolian with the leading-tone resored to restore the V - i to the key.

xxdarrenxx
11-12-2008, 07:17 AM
The formula's should'nt be based on any scale.

The melodic pattern created using those formula's will be the same in any key, so like so:

Modes of the Melodic Minor
Melodic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 7
Phrygian Nat 6th: 1 b2 b3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian Augmented: 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
Lydian Dominant: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7
Aeolian Dominant/Mixolydian b13: 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Locrian Nat 2nd: 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7
Super-Locrian: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7

Harmonic Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7
Locrian Nat 6th: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 6 b7
Ionian Augmented: 1 2 3 4 #5 6 7
Dorian #4: 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7
Phyrgian Dominant: 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Lydian #2: 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7
Ultra-Locrian: 1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 bb7

ect.

Sorry, did you mean when describing them to compare them the the modes of the Major Scale?

In that case I would, Melodic Minor (in my view, not that that's right) Melodic Minor is compared to dorian, with a restored Leading Tone, (not that this is the purpose for its creation)

Harmonic Minor is of course Aeolian with the leading-tone resored to restore the V - i to the key.

Yes, but what I mean is those formula's are based on the major scale right? You take the notes of the major scale and apply those changes?

Major scale: r,2,3 etc which is C,D,E
Harmonic minor: r,2,b3 so C,D,Eb

mdc
11-12-2008, 10:59 AM
If you want to learn about the modes, then stop watching and start reading![/B]
Empty vessels make the most noise. Or more appropriately "All mouth and trousers".

xxdarrenxx
11-12-2008, 11:34 AM
Empty vessels make the most noise.

??

Johnljones7443
11-12-2008, 12:08 PM
^It means those that talk a lot, usually don't know what they are talking about. Or something to that effect. All mouth no trousers would imply someone who talks a lot about a particular subject, but doesn't deliver anything of substance.

elvenkindje
11-12-2008, 12:12 PM
Like everyone talking about modes.

mdc
11-12-2008, 12:14 PM
...which is why this hasn't been stickied. Some mod's gonna wander on MT now and prove me wrong....bastard.

xxdarrenxx
11-12-2008, 12:27 PM
...which is why this hasn't been stickied. Some mod's gonna wander on MT now and prove me wrong....bastard.

I just listed examples of songs which resemble the modes strongly, hearing wise. I seen so many people say; I'm in C major and I Start on a D note and end on a D note, and it still sounds major instead of dorian. I thought if I list songs which distinctively represent a mode's sound, people would understand better, cause I see a mode question every week at least once or twice.

Only thing I talked about is my own view on modes, which I said choose whichever works best for you.

elvenkindje
11-12-2008, 04:00 PM
While your ideas all work good in theory and paper, the thing I miss biggest in this summary is the practical application of modes. You give us examples to listen to, but that doesn't do it for me. I mean, I have a fine understanding of modes and when to use them but most importantly: When NOT to use them. Modes are not something you can learn overnight or incoorperate into your playing easily. Modes are not something you can put in a ii-V-I progression (or most progressions for that matter) because those progressions aren't modal. Maybe add (a) part(s) on stuff like that.

Johnljones7443
11-12-2008, 07:07 PM
Yes, but what I mean is those formula's are based on the major scale right? You take the notes of the major scale and apply those changes?

Major scale: r,2,3 etc which is C,D,E
Harmonic minor: r,2,b3 so C,D,Eb

Yes. All scale/chord formulas are relative to the major scale.

xxdarrenxx
11-12-2008, 07:12 PM
While your ideas all work good in theory and paper, the thing I miss biggest in this summary is the practical application of modes. You give us examples to listen to, but that doesn't do it for me. I mean, I have a fine understanding of modes and when to use them but most importantly: When NOT to use them. Modes are not something you can learn overnight or incoorperate into your playing easily. Modes are not something you can put in a ii-V-I progression (or most progressions for that matter) because those progressions aren't modal. Maybe add (a) part(s) on stuff like that.

Hmmm yes I understand what you mean. I think the title is a bit misleading. I meant this to be more of a "sound" experience of the modes; Get to know how they sound, as I believe this will equally help in getting the sound of a mode down in a musical idea as in how it actual works with the theoretical side (the notes and the modal progressions)
Understanding the vibe and mood, know what I mean?

Thanks for the advice. If I find the time, I will make a list on chordal progressions and how u can come up with ur own in an easy way by the use of slash chords.

elvenkindje
11-12-2008, 07:19 PM
Hmmm yes I understand what you mean. I think the title is a bit misleading. I meant this to be more of a "sound" experience of the modes. Get to know how they sound, as I believe this will equally help in getting the sound of a mode down in a musical idea as in how it actual works with the theoretical side (the notes and the modal progressions)
In relation to the sound experience you might want to add the 'Satrianistyle' of practicing modes (or pitch axis practice or w/e you want to call it). In simple, play the low E note and play E ionian over it, after that, play another mode of E over it (I prefer lydian or mixolydian next so you hear the subtle, yet big, differences between the two)

Also, I completely disagree with the following part. Might have taken it too literally but maybe other people will too.
help in getting the sound of a mode down in a musical idea
A musical idea is a musical idea. It's something in your head that you want to get out and play. Modes do not help you get out of this and you should not force a mode into an idea. Just let the idea come out, whether it's modal or not.

In short, my view on modes? Learn them, use them to find out how certain tensions sound in relation to eachother, forget modes, remember the tensions. Just shut up about the theorycraft and play what's in your mind know that you're one step closer to being able to.

xxdarrenxx
11-12-2008, 07:34 PM
In relation to the sound experience you might want to add the 'Satrianistyle' of practicing modes (or pitch axis practice or w/e you want to call it). In simple, play the low E note and play E ionian over it, after that, play another mode of E over it (I prefer lydian or mixolydian next so you hear the subtle, yet big, differences between the two)

Also, I completely disagree with the following part. Might have taken it too literally but maybe other people will too.

A musical idea is a musical idea. It's something in your head that you want to get out and play. Modes do not help you get out of this and you should not force a mode into an idea. Just let the idea come out, whether it's modal or not.

In short, my view on modes? Learn them, use them to find out how certain tensions sound in relation to eachother, forget modes, remember the tensions. Just shut up about the theorycraft and play what's in your mind know that you're one step closer to being able to.

I agree on ur view, cause it's also my view. But know also, that not all people have such a link from head to the instrument. I made this list so people can link the mode to the sound of em as such in the examples. Cause words can't describe the feelings of every mode, simply because everyone will feel it different. So I made a list and if someone comes and clicks a song on the list and are like: Hey I like this sound I wanna play this, they know which mode they have to learn or draw inspiration from in order to get the sound on the instrument. Once they learned that, they can start experimenting with mixing modes, adding "out of scale" notes etc.

You don't need to know the rules in order to "accidently" break em. But if u do you know where to look, and this will save alot of time in getting ur musical ideas down.

one vision
11-12-2008, 08:40 PM
^Playing Lydian still won't make you sound like Vai though :haha. But I get what you're saying. It's easier to listen to a song and get the idea rather than read about it.

mdc
11-13-2008, 05:14 AM
In relation to the sound experience you might want to add the 'Satrianistyle' of practicing modes (or pitch axis practice or w/e you want to call it). In simple, play the low E note and play E ionian over it, after that, play another mode of E over it (I prefer lydian or mixolydian next so you hear the subtle, yet big, differences between the two)
I posted this (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=910178) a while back.

Diamond Dave
11-17-2008, 07:14 AM
I think enter sandman is locrian...

demonofthenight
11-17-2008, 07:47 AM
I think enter sandman is locrian...Seems to be, yeah. That E in the very first riff is the most prominent note, establishing tonal center. But a Bb is used instead of an B and a G is also used. Very locrian.

It's not really a locrian progression though. Have fun trying to improvise over it without clashing or sounding muddy (sure it's entirely possible though).

08L1V10N
11-17-2008, 07:48 AM
Is the solo from Repentance by DT in D lydian?

xxdarrenxx
11-17-2008, 07:50 AM
Seems to be, yeah. That E in the very first riff is the most prominent note, establishing tonal center. But a Bb is used instead of an B and a G is also used. Very locrian.

It's not really a locrian progression though. Have fun trying to improvise over it without clashing or sounding muddy (sure it's entirely possible though).

Harmonic wise it's more of an EMinor with a b5 (blues note). Else I could name 1000 blues songs in locrian.

But it could also be Locrian, but try outlining it locrian and it would sound shit. Of course u can make locrian song, but it won't sound right. You could even write a song with quarter notes, but it just doesn't appeal.

And Repentance solo is Pink floyd "rip of" sorta speak in a good way. it's just various modulations.

demonofthenight
11-17-2008, 08:24 AM
Harmonic wise it's more of an EMinor with a b5 (blues note). Else I could name 1000 blues songs in locrian.

But it could also be Locrian, but try outlining it locrian and it would sound shit. Of course u can make locrian song, but it won't sound right. You could even write a song with quarter notes, but it just doesn't appeal.

And Repentance solo is Pink floyd "rip of" sorta speak in a good way. it's just various modulations.I'm talking about the main riff. Most blues songs are not locrian because a perfect fifth will be used as a chord tone. In the riff to enter sandman I don't think Hetfield uses a perfect fifth? Anyone know if he uses a B anywhere in that riff? I'll go check the tabs.

xxdarrenxx
11-17-2008, 08:35 AM
I'm talking about the main riff. Most blues songs are not locrian because a perfect fifth will be used as a chord tone. In the riff to enter sandman I don't think Hetfield uses a perfect fifth? Anyone know if he uses a B anywhere in that riff? I'll go check the tabs.

The first chord E power chord rings a bell? :p:

Archeo Avis
11-17-2008, 08:42 AM
The first chord E power chord rings a bell? :p:

The one that doesn't appear until long after the "locrian" riff begins?

xxdarrenxx
11-17-2008, 08:44 AM
The one that doesn't appear until long after the "locrian" riff begins?
Ah yes I thought he meant by main riff the one where the drum beat comes in, not the riff with the tom's groove.

Edit: soz the toms riffs the 2nd guitar play's an A nd E chord, I meant the intro riff with the hats.

Galvanise69
11-17-2008, 06:16 PM
Enter Sandman in Locrian?

I guess in the opening riff includes the Min 3rd, Tonic, Diminished Fifth, and Perfect 4th.

The song's not really based around a Locrian however. Would it be fairer to call it a Aeolian with the occasional use of a Diminished 5th, because as was pointed out there are a fair few times when the Perfect Fifth is used as well.

david_safc
11-21-2008, 10:08 PM
Thanks for this, it's great.

demonofthenight
11-22-2008, 09:31 AM
Enter Sandman in Locrian?

I guess in the opening riff includes the Min 3rd, Tonic, Diminished Fifth, and Perfect 4th.

The song's not really based around a Locrian however. Would it be fairer to call it a Aeolian with the occasional use of a Diminished 5th, because as was pointed out there are a fair few times when the Perfect Fifth is used as well.The perfect fifth isn't used as part of the riff. It's used in a powerchord as a way to beef up another note. The fifths of powerchords don't make individual melodies and therefore shouldn't be considered when analyzing the riff.

The riffs in locrian

yM.Samurai
01-03-2009, 04:44 AM
I'm sorry to say that I don't know any songs which strongly represent locrian. Maybe death metal like necrophagist. If someone here has a good example of a strong locrian sound, then please tell me and I will put it here.

Due to the instability of Locrian (it has a very strong tendency to pull to the b2, the first note of the Ionian mode) it's virtually impossible to create a "strong" Locrian feel.

EDIT: There's no way Enter Sandman is in Locrian. The opening riffs all constantly resolve to the E or the A. It's just in the E Hexatonic Blues Scale, if you want to get technical.

Night_Lights
01-03-2009, 08:01 AM
talk about one chord vamps.

xxdarrenxx
01-03-2009, 08:04 AM
talk about one chord vamps.

?

2nd link in my signature is vamps for every mode explained + a solo (and explanation)

GuitarMunky
01-03-2009, 12:16 PM
[B]Stop Hearing & Start listening!
This is what my guitar teacher told me when I played horribly out of scale through key changes. I was like wtf is the difference, to which he replied: everything.
Hearing music or sound is hearing a plane flying overhead, or the sounds of cars passing by. Listening to music is instead of hearing a car, hearing what the engine is (v8, v12 etcetera).

If you want to learn modes, you really have to listen to music. Hum every note of the melody along with the song (or follow along in your head if you’re not a good singer), whatever you prefer. Determine at which note u get the "mode" feeling. This worked for me. When I really listened, note by note, I could hum the modes (and/or hear them in my head) within a week or 2, because I had them linked with the modes in my mind.

This is easier then it sounds, you just have to open your mind.



Good tip in general, but it applies to all aspects of music not just modes as implied.

Example:

"If you want to learn modes, you really have to listen to music."

really it should say "If you want to learn music, you really have to listen to music. "

Modes is just 1 part of music that the general rule you stated applies to.

I guess I'm saying that your main point at the beginning is another lesson altogether.

xxdarrenxx
01-03-2009, 01:15 PM
Good tip in general, but it applies to all aspects of music not just modes as implied.

Example:

"If you want to learn modes, you really have to listen to music."

really it should say "If you want to learn music, you really have to listen to music. "

Modes is just 1 part of music that the general rule you stated applies to.

I guess I'm saying that your main point at the beginning is another lesson altogether.

Ah yes, it's a general thing in music all together, but when I wrote the lesson I just wrote it then :)

GuitarMunky
01-03-2009, 01:46 PM
Ah yes, it's a general thing in music all together, but when I wrote the lesson I just wrote it then :)

NP, I can understand how that would happen, and it is a good tip :)

yM.Samurai
01-03-2009, 06:25 PM
Is the solo from Repentance by DT in D lydian?

Nah, B Dorian.

NinjaLamppost
01-05-2009, 04:15 AM
(R, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7)

If (R) is fret 1, what are the rest?

This is really interesting but I really can't translate these yet :(

Thanks.

NL

xxdarrenxx
01-05-2009, 05:15 AM
(R, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7)

If (R) is fret 1, what are the rest?

This is really interesting but I really can't translate these yet :(

Thanks.

NL


Those are scale formula's and relate to the Major scale.

In the key of C it's this;
(every number is a note)

R = root note or 1.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
C, D, E, F, G, A, B

So this is;
R, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb

michal23
01-05-2009, 06:54 AM
Sticky and make this the only modes thread? Please?

NinjaLamppost
01-05-2009, 06:59 AM
Those are scale formula's and relate to the Major scale.

In the key of C it's this;
(every number is a note)

R = root note or 1.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
C, D, E, F, G, A, B

So this is;
R, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7
C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb

Thanks :D, this helps a lot, much appreciated.

bass wizard
01-05-2009, 07:04 AM
Yeah, can we please sticky this......

Zbigniev
01-17-2009, 03:37 AM
is good. i think of dorian like monks chanting if you play the scale

kampfgolem
01-29-2009, 06:00 AM
About Overture 1928's solo as a Dorian Example...

First off, I didn't search the thread for responses or comments- I'm falling asleep here, but I couldn't wait til tomorrow and risk forgetting about this... then again I can't see any edits in the OP, so I guess nobody's commented on this.

I'm pretty sure the C#m-B-G#m-A (or something) solo is C# aeolian. Where's the D#-F# motion you talk about?

xxdarrenxx
01-29-2009, 07:39 AM
About Overture 1928's solo as a Dorian Example...

First off, I didn't search the thread for responses or comments- I'm falling asleep here, but I couldn't wait til tomorrow and risk forgetting about this... then again I can't see any edits in the OP, so I guess nobody's commented on this.

I'm pretty sure the C#m-B-G#m-A (or something) solo is C# aeolian. Where's the D#-F# motion you talk about?


Ur right it's not "dorian".

I can't be bother to explain it is more of a psychological/aural thing and not theoretically correct.

I will Edit it out.

kampfgolem
02-02-2009, 08:22 PM
Ur right it's not "dorian".

I can't be bother to explain it is more of a psychological/aural thing and not theoretically correct.

I will Edit it out.

Yeah, that's what I figured, but still I thought it'd be important to point it out in a theoretically-focused thread :P

Besides, it's pretty ambiguous melodic-wise due to the skipping of the 6th. However, it's present in the Harmony underneath, so that pretty much crashes the whole ambiguity.

Aurally-speaking, the lick that serves as transition to the C lydian section does sound Dorian to me... the whole VII - Im thing.

xxdarrenxx
02-03-2009, 03:54 AM
Yeah, that's what I figured, but still I thought it'd be important to point it out in a theoretically-focused thread :P

Besides, it's pretty ambiguous melodic-wise due to the skipping of the 6th. However, it's present in the Harmony underneath, so that pretty much crashes the whole ambiguity.

Aurally-speaking, the lick that serves as transition to the C lydian section does sound Dorian to me... the whole VII - Im thing.

True, but theoretically i'm (or it's) not allowed to call it like that (Which you pointed out), so that's one of the musical wonders where theory and aural crash :p:

We'd like that to call creativity :)

bornfidelity
02-25-2009, 07:33 AM
it boggles my mind that anyone would call a note which is a major third, a diminished fourth.

...If you already have a minor third and a flat fifth, I'd rather call the major third a diminished fourth for the sake of continuity. But hey that's just me, I'm weird

gary2damax
02-25-2009, 08:32 AM
Wikipedia lols. You said you didn't have any good examples of Locrian so,

"Symptom of the Universe" by Black Sabbath is said to be in Locrian mode.[citation needed]
The beginning of "YYZ" by Rush is in C Locrian.
Sad But True by Metallica
Enter Sandman by Metallica
The main riff of Painkiller by Judas Priest
The Chorus riff of Our Truth by Lacuna Coil

Naturally, I haven't heard any of these xD But I thought I might try help out :)

branny1982
02-25-2009, 09:10 AM
i can't vouch for all of them, but i am pretty sure none will be Locrian.

I don't have a clue why people say the Sandman Riff is Locrian....

Metalhead_28
02-25-2009, 10:15 AM
Having a look at this thread reminded me of a little demonstration that I recorded a while back where I just played through each of the modes over a simple E vamp on the bass.

It might be helpful for those wanting an example of the character of the different modes all in one setting.

I've uploaded it to my profile:

http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/Metalhead_28/music/all/play553092

Ead
02-25-2009, 10:58 AM
I wouldn't really call the YYZ intro locrian, it's just a little tritone vamp. That's missing 6 other notes that make a mode sound like it does. Painkiller I've thought about calling locrian before, but it's pretty much a brutal riff with 1, b2, b3, 4 and b7, second time around landing on b5 power chord. It could just as easily fit into a phrygian riff considering the b5 as a chromatic. But, there's no 5 in the riff anywhere.. it's interesting anyway :D And what branny said for Enter Sandman. I think locrian is more of a conversational tool than a usable mode lol. Almost anything you could say is locrian is either straight locrian over a root note, or some metal riff that should probably consider the b5 as chromatic. That being said though I think metal is the only genre I've heard where you can hear a riff and say realistically that it could be locrian. Probably the Symptom of the Universe riff.

slappyx
05-08-2009, 02:18 PM
Already rewritten by Pannenkoeken :)

And MY windows is illegal, so I don't have word.

lol... :P downloading is bad!

Frantic_Rock
05-08-2009, 02:47 PM
What an amazing guide. You did a fantastic job. Comparing modes to colors is brilliant in my opinion. I never thought of it this way.

I group them like this though:
2 are major: Ionian, Lydian,
1 is dominant: Mixolydian
4 are minor: Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Locrian

(I treat mixolydian separately from the major modes. It sounds "hip" to me, and many times is used as tension building on the V chord. But like you said - many times its used as a main scale, such as in "Summer Song" by Satriani)

(I lump locrian under minor because of it's flat 3 and flat 7. Ofcourse the flat 5 makes it diminished sounding). It's played over a Min7b5 chord - so technically it's not minor.

I think I like your way of thinking of it (3, 3, 1) better than my way...

GuitarMunky
05-08-2009, 02:54 PM
What an amazing guide. You did a fantastic job. Comparing modes to colors is brilliant in my opinion. I never thought of it this way.

I group them like this though:
2 are major: Ionian, Lydian,
1 is dominant: Mixolydian
4 are minor: Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian, Locrian

(I treat mixolydian separately from the major modes. It sounds "hip" to me, and many times is used as tension building on the V chord. But like you said - many times its used as a main scale, such as in "Summer Song" by Satriani)

(I lump locrian under minor because of it's flat 3 and flat 7. Ofcourse the flat 5 makes it diminished sounding). It's played over a Min7b5 chord - so technically it's not minor.

I think I like your way of thinking of it (3, 3, 1) better than my way...

I also relate mixo to dominant as opposed to Major.

seizuresinprime
09-12-2009, 08:42 PM
Is this thread dead?

I've really been interested in modes... and i've been trying to test myself so I have some question.

I was going over the dorian mode, and i noticed it sounded really close to the Halo theme... so I checked, and it sound (to me, a very inexperienced person) like the Halo theme was written in dorian mode.

Also, the song A Rite of Passage by Dream Theater, sounds very Mixolydian.

Some clarification by some "mode gurus" would be appreciated so I can know if i'm getting the hang of modes.

:cheers:

griffRG7321
09-13-2009, 06:47 AM
Locrian progression: Two chord vamp

Take chords IV and V from relative major scale and use them over the root of the mode.

Eg.

B locrian - G/B - F/B

doive
09-13-2009, 06:58 AM
just a minor point (no pun intended) but i'm slightly contesting greensleeves being dorian mode. The 'first part' of the melody (before it jumps up to the higher bit) opens using b6's and also include natural 7's thay doesn't strike me as very dorian, much closer to melodic minor where the flattening/sharpening of 6/7's depends on the direction of melodic movement.

I disagree that mixo should be included in it's own dominant setting - the point of the classification between minor/major as far as i'm concerned is as to whether it fits into minor/major pentatonics. mixo fits entirely into major so should be included in major. If you start putting everything in into it's own category of dominant, b5 etc. you are just naming the modes.

i wonder whether including a common vamp that's specific to each mode might help?
e.g. Dorian = Am7 D9

xxdarrenxx
09-13-2009, 03:04 PM
just a minor point (no pun intended) but i'm slightly contesting greensleeves being dorian mode. The 'first part' of the melody (before it jumps up to the higher bit) opens using b6's and also include natural 7's thay doesn't strike me as very dorian, much closer to melodic minor where the flattening/sharpening of 6/7's depends on the direction of melodic movement.

I disagree that mixo should be included in it's own dominant setting - the point of the classification between minor/major as far as i'm concerned is as to whether it fits into minor/major pentatonics. mixo fits entirely into major so should be included in major. If you start putting everything in into it's own category of dominant, b5 etc. you are just naming the modes.

i wonder whether including a common vamp that's specific to each mode might help?
e.g. Dorian = Am7 D9


I believe that you should know mixolydian both as major and dominant;

There are a few scales which are dominant based anyway (Lydian dominant, Phrygian dominant) etc.

doive
09-13-2009, 05:45 PM
Yes i agree you should know it as both as well but in the context of this classification introducing something other than major/minor seems a little silly. For example you wouldn't decide when grouping things into animals or plants to include a 3rd category of fish.

GuitarMunky
09-13-2009, 05:54 PM
Yes i agree you should know it as both as well but in the context of this classification introducing something other than major/minor seems a little silly. For example you wouldn't decide when grouping things into animals or plants to include a 3rd category of fish.

Well the color of Mixolydian specifically involves the b7. Simply calling it Major doesn't fully describe the sound/function of the mode/scale.

The benefit of classifying modes into types of scales is to make a connection to application.

Dominant more accurately describes mixolydian in this regard.

doive
09-13-2009, 06:58 PM
in the same way simply calling dorian Minor doesn't fully describe it, but if you (as i read the original thing) are trying to classify everything into minor/major (with an outsider) then i would put it as major. putting mixo in it's own dominant category defeats the purpose of putting them in categories in the first place, each mode is in it's own category really, it can just help to group them.

GuitarMunky
09-13-2009, 10:23 PM
in the same way simply calling dorian Minor doesn't fully describe it, but if you (as i read the original thing) are trying to classify everything into minor/major (with an outsider) then i would put it as major. putting mixo in it's own dominant category defeats the purpose of putting them in categories in the first place, each mode is in it's own category really, it can just help to group them.

No, not exactly the same way. The significance of the b7 over a Major chord is greater than the N6 over a minor in terms of function/categorization. Also, dominant chords are a category. In my experience mixolydian is associated with that category. In school I often heard professors referring to mixolydian as the dominant scale.



So no, referring to mixolydian as being dominant does not defeat the purpose of categorizing modes. It does exactly what it's intended to do.... it describes the type of scale.

isaac_bandits
09-13-2009, 10:42 PM
No, not exactly the same way. The significance of the b7 over a Major chord is greater than the N6 over a minor in terms of function/categorization. Also, dominant chords are a category. In my experience mixolydian is associated with that category. In school I often heard professors referring to mixolydian as the dominant scale.



So no, referring to mixolydian as being dominant does not defeat the purpose of categorizing modes. It does exactly what it's intended to do.... it describes the type of scale.

But then shouldn't locrian be considered half-diminished?

GuitarMunky
09-13-2009, 11:01 PM
But then shouldn't locrian be considered half-diminished?

Are you saying that mixolydian shouldn't be categorized as being dominant? That was the context of my points. If you disagree with my points, in the context I presented them in, I'm open to hearing your reasoning.

And I do understand what your trying to do with the locrian question. I've seen locrian referred to as a minor scale, and as a diminished scale. To be honest I've never seen it categorized on the 7th chord level, but certainly locrian is associated with diminished triads & half diminished 7th chords.

isaac_bandits
09-13-2009, 11:44 PM
Are you saying that mixolydian shouldn't be categorized as being dominant? That was the context of my points. If you disagree with my points, in the context I presented them in, I'm open to hearing your reasoning.

And I do understand what your trying to do with the locrian question. I've seen locrian referred to as a minor scale, and as a diminished scale. To be honest I've never seen it categorized on the 7th chord level, but certainly locrian is associated with diminished triads & half diminished 7th chords.

I was just saying that if mixolydian should be classified as dominant, then it follows that locrian should be classified as half-diminished; If you want to call locrian diminished, then call mixolydian major. You should use either one method or the other, not a hybrid.

GuitarMunky
09-14-2009, 12:10 AM
I was just saying that if mixolydian should be classified as dominant, then it follows that locrian should be classified as half-diminished; If you want to call locrian diminished, then call mixolydian major. You should use either one method or the other, not a hybrid.

I understood what you were doing, and I understand your logic about consistency. I would suggest though that you consider common practice & application along with that logic. As far as what method one should use.... I would say they should use the one that best allows them to apply the scale.

Anyway, my point is that Mixolydian is referred to as a dominant scale, and not without good reason. That is my only point. If you want to argue against that point, in that context, Im glad to hear your point of view.

guitarlord28
01-07-2010, 10:05 PM
So, does the mode depend on the chord progression, not the lead over it?

isaac_bandits
01-07-2010, 11:18 PM
So, does the mode depend on the chord progression, not the lead over it?

Both help to establish the mode, but the chord progression is more important. There was no reason to bring up an old thread for this, when you could've just asked us on your other thread, which we were already answer the same questions on...

20Tigers
01-08-2010, 07:47 AM
Yeah but it's a good thread :cool:

evolucian
01-08-2010, 09:11 AM
agreed, it is a very good thread... dont be shy about being bashed around by munky... munky's a genius... and when I'm big, I'm gonna be just like him