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-   -   Circle of Fifths?! (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1565121)

Woffelz 09-27-2012 12:38 PM

Circle of Fifths?!
 
Is it really ascending fourths/descending fifths and NOT ascending fifths/descending fourths?! Why?!

jazz_rock_feel 09-27-2012 01:23 PM



That's what it is, take from that what you will, it doesn't really matter.

EDIT: Wow, that's a terrible picture.

Sleepy__Head 09-27-2012 01:30 PM

You can go up in fourths / down in fifths or up in fifths / down in fourths. It makes no difference. The important thing is the interval - regardless of whether you're going up / down, left / right or forward / backward the cycle is of all fourths or all fifths.

J-Dawg158 09-27-2012 01:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woffelz
Is it really ascending fourths/descending fifths and NOT ascending fifths/descending fourths?! Why?!



metalmetalhead 09-27-2012 05:32 PM

clockwise is fifths counter clockwise is fourths.

G is still C's fifths higher or lower

F is still C's fourth higher or lower.

sixsrtingsunder 09-29-2012 03:48 PM

Think back to kindergarden art class. 8 crayons, 3 primary colors. If in the key of c, the primary tones are c:1, f:4 and g:5. They are also opposites. F is 4 from c. C is 5 from f. G is 5 from c. C is 4 from g. Primary tones all have big consinance. They sound good together. Keys are the same, soare chords, so are notes. If you know your scale shapes play c major. To get to the key of f you add a flat on the 7th of the c major... viola you have a f major. To get to g major from c major youd add a sharp to the 4th the c major. More precisely, the c changes fom the major to the 4th or 5th scale, aka the lydian or the mixolydian, so in short, yes counter clockwise is 4th movement. Clockwise is 5th movement. You should also learn chords in this manner across the neck. Look up your chord cycles fot mote info.

yoyoloto 10-01-2012 08:46 PM

I used this to learn : http://www.circle-of-fifths.net/
Your question confused me, who cares if it ascends or descends, just make sure you understand how the thingy works.

20Tigers 10-02-2012 03:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
G is still C's fifths higher or lower

F is still C's fourth higher or lower.


G is a perfect fifth above C
F is a perfect fifth below C

Sleepy__Head 10-02-2012 04:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
G is a perfect fifth above C
F is a perfect fifth below C


Or, for the sake of completeness:

G is the 5th note in the major, and natural-, harmonic- and melodic-minor scales of C.
G is the dominant tone of the key(s) of C (regardless of where it's pitched).
If G is pitched above C it will be n-octaves and a perfect 5th above.
If G is pitched below C it will be n-octaves and a perfect 4th below.

F is the 4th note in the major, and natural-, harmonic- and melodic-minor scales of C.
F is the subdominant tone of the key(s) of C (regardless of where it's pitched).
If F is pitched above C it will be n-octaves and a perfect 4th above.
If F is pitched below C it will be n-octaves and a perfect 5th below.

metalmetalhead 10-02-2012 11:52 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Or, for the sake of completeness:

G is the 5th note in the major, and natural-, harmonic- and melodic-minor scales of C.
G is the dominant tone of the key(s) of C (regardless of where it's pitched).
If G is pitched above C it will be n-octaves and a perfect 5th above.
If G is pitched below C it will be n-octaves and a perfect 4th below.

F is the 4th note in the major, and natural-, harmonic- and melodic-minor scales of C.
F is the subdominant tone of the key(s) of C (regardless of where it's pitched).
If F is pitched above C it will be n-octaves and a perfect 4th above.
If F is pitched below C it will be n-octaves and a perfect 5th below.


I think when getting into this its good to spell out the scale. now that your linking more subjects. this is getting into interval inversions.

G is still C's 5th. and F is still C's 4th but now your confusing someone trying to learn Co5's

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 ascending notes its the 5ths scale degree..If you look at it descending its 4 scale degrees from octave. but Its still labeled as 5. It can get confusing when someone says G is C's 5th and G is a p4 lower then C.

I think this is called interval inversion. the rule of thumb when inverting intervals is the numbers always = 9 so 5+4=9. So If your playing relative minor 6th scale degree you invert that to see what it is the other way. 6+3=9

Captaincranky 10-02-2012 12:38 PM

Maybe it could be called,
Quote:
"The Circle of Fifths, But Only When You READ it CLOCKWISE".


Then, to avoid a lengthy and contentious thread, print it on other side of the paper exactly the same, and call it,
Quote:
"The Circle of Fourths, But Only When You READ it COUNTERCLOCKWISE".

Sleepy__Head 10-02-2012 01:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
I think when getting into this its good to spell out the scale. now that your linking more subjects. this is getting into interval inversions.

G is still C's 5th.

and F is still C's 4th but now your confusing someone trying to learn Co5's


Ok, I agree that F is C's subdominant, and G it's dominant regardless of where you pitch them in relation to C, as long as you're doing tonal music in C major, or C natural, harmonic or melodic minor. I take your point on ascending and descending scales, except to say that scale degrees are usually labelled from the tonic upwards.

As far as interval inversion goes what you've said is correct, but it's also worth bearing in mind that the interval quality also inverts. Major becomes minor, augmented becomes diminished and perfect stays perfect. A minor 3rd becomes a major 6th, for example. If you're counting semitones then when inverting intervals the two intervals always add to 12, so a major 3rd is 4 semitones, and a minor 6th is 8 semitones and 4 + 8 = 12.

Sleepy__Head 10-02-2012 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Maybe it could be called,

Then, to avoid a lengthy and contentious thread, print it on other side of the paper exactly the same, and call it,


Circle of dominant and subdominants anyone?

food1010 10-02-2012 10:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Circle of dominant and subdominants anyone?
Circle of key signatures?

Captaincranky 10-03-2012 12:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Circle of dominant and subdominants anyone?
Names are so easily forgettable anyway! You could come up with all different names. Would people remember them all? Not Likely!

Which is why I say we should work out a logo for the, "circle whose name cannot be spoken"..... :rolleyes: It works enormously well for large corporations, does it not?


Hey, how about an apple with a bite out of it.......? :devil: That one's been taken, you say?

Sh, I'm going to work out the name, maybe the logo will come......

"The circle whose name it mustn't be spoken"........

"The circle whose name it is forbidden to be spoken"........

"The circle whose name it dare not be spoken".........

"The circle that rotates two directions at once, yet never moves"......

Am I even getting warm........ :confused:

metalmetalhead 10-03-2012 08:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
Ok, I agree that F is C's subdominant, and G it's dominant regardless of where you pitch them in relation to C, as long as you're doing tonal music in C major, or C natural, harmonic or melodic minor. I take your point on ascending and descending scales, except to say that scale degrees are usually labelled from the tonic upwards.

As far as interval inversion goes what you've said is correct, but it's also worth bearing in mind that the interval quality also inverts. Major becomes minor, augmented becomes diminished and perfect stays perfect. A minor 3rd becomes a major 6th, for example. If you're counting semitones then when inverting intervals the two intervals always add to 12, so a major 3rd is 4 semitones, and a minor 6th is 8 semitones and 4 + 8 = 12.


yes I knew I was missing something. I wasn't for sure about the Interval qualities inverting. so I didn't mention it, I'm glad you did. oh and looky there you can count in semitones as well to =12. or scale degrees to =9 so P5 is 7 semitones P4 is 5 seimtones . 7+5=12 or 5+4=9. cool thanks sleepy head

C05 was very confusing for me at first until I learned what it was used for "key signature" now it does little to no good for me. But it still taught me useful stuff.

Sleepy__Head 10-03-2012 08:34 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captaincranky
Names are so easily forgettable anyway! You could come up with all different names. Would people remember them all? Not Likely!

Which is why I say we should work out a logo for the, "circle whose name cannot be spoken"..... :rolleyes: It works enormously well for large corporations, does it not?


Hey, how about an apple with a bite out of it.......? :devil: That one's been taken, you say?

Sh, I'm going to work out the name, maybe the logo will come......

"The circle whose name it mustn't be spoken"........

"The circle whose name it is forbidden to be spoken"........

"The circle whose name it dare not be spoken".........

"The circle that rotates two directions at once, yet never moves"......

Am I even getting warm........ :confused:


I like "The circle that rotates two directions at once, yet never moves".

It has a mystical quality to it.

Pronunciation of the holy name should be accompanied by a similarly mystical gesture.

Sleepy__Head 10-03-2012 08:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmetalhead
yes I knew I was missing something. I wasn't for sure about the Interval qualities inverting. so I didn't mention it, I'm glad you did. oh and looky there you can count in semitones as well to =12. or scale degrees to =9 so P5 is 7 semitones P4 is 5 seimtones . 7+5=12 or 5+4=9. cool thanks sleepy head

C05 was very confusing for me at first until I learned what it was used for "key signature" now it does little to no good for me. But it still taught me useful stuff.


No worries.

C05? Is that C dim 5?

jazz_rock_feel 10-03-2012 09:13 AM

Circle 0f 5ifths

Sleepy__Head 10-03-2012 09:14 AM

*facepalm*

Can't believe I didn't spot that. It's visible from space, FFS.


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