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-   -   Closed back 412 vs Open back 212 (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1566330)

losing battle 10-05-2012 01:19 AM

Closed back 412 vs Open back 212
 
I'm wondering if its worth bringing my 212 to the rehearsal space as well to remedy a problem we encountered when we added a bass player. Here's the problem my rig is a gibson lp, a turbo rat an ampeg v50h and I was using their 412 mesa cab. With my volume set barely above two the bass player became inaudible, we could still hear the drummer but we could not hear the bass at all, normally that's not that big of a deal but unfortunatly the bass amp was already being pushed to the point of feedback. He became audible when my bass knob was turned to 2.5 which made my guitar sound like ass so I wasn't happy. So my question to you gg&a is will the differences in these two cabs enable us to to both be happy.

Closed back Mesa 412 normal sized
Celestion vintage 30s

Randall 212 open back
celestion seventy 80's

Sorry I made VS. Thread but I'm trying to figure out how to change my set up to make every one in the band happy and a new amp for the time being is a no go and we get stuck in the room with a bugera 333 (eww) and random tube amp that I'm not thrilled about either.

Big Bang 10-05-2012 01:23 AM

What kind of amp is your bassist using? Is there anything to keep you from just keeping your volume knob set low enough that you can all be heard?

gregs1020 10-05-2012 01:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bang
What kind of amp is your bassist using?

my question as well.

:lurk:


what you bassist may need, is a new amp. :o

trashedlostfdup 10-05-2012 01:29 AM

seventy 80's are the second worst speakers that celestion makes (next to rocket 50). that would play a big enough role for me. but then also i don't mind hauling a 4x12"

however 2x12"s take less space and are lighter, they really aren't any quieter, but the open back probably wouldn't be ideal.

why are you looking into guitar speaker cabs when your bassist cant be loud enough? the drums set the volume. if you amp is so low and he is maxing his out and can't be heard, he needs a new bass rig. bass frequencies would likely damage either speaker.

unless i read something wrong, the bassist should be getting a bigger amp.

losing battle 10-05-2012 01:44 AM

He is using a hughes and ketner hk300 combo+ a harkte (eww) bass cab its what the rehersal space has and his current amp is significantly less powerull than the one we are provided, its a 100w ampeg 115 combo don't know the exact model. The idea here is hopefully the loss in speaker effeciency and low end will make up for my very loud set up. (With the mesa 412 it more than matches a cranked dual rectifier in volume with my amps volume knob set slightly less than two) Fortunatly I'm blessed with an uber loud drummer that can easily be heard over either of the amps no problem unless I turn my personal amp to 7.

gumbilicious 10-05-2012 02:07 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by losing battle
The idea here is hopefully the loss in speaker effeciency and low end will make up for my very loud set up.


here is the deal:

-the 2x12 may not be less efficient
-open back cabs can actually sound louder because they push sound out the front and back of the cab
-4x12 closed back cabs are more directional and only push sound out the front in a much more narrow path than an open back cab
-a closed back 4x12 will have more bass response than an open back 2x12. this cause the 4x12 to compete with the bass more, making the bass less audible.
- open back cabs have limited baffling, which actually does limit the low end response and can help you keep off the bass players toes.

i would try the 2x12 open back. if it is too loud then keep it close to the wall (a OB 2x12 will sound quite a bit louder when 4' to 6' from the wall, this allows the signal from the back of the amp to project off a wall efficiently). more importantly, an OB won't compete with the bass as much.

if you are one of those slack tuned bands that plays with the guitar lower than D, then you are just going to be competing with the bass alot and you will have a harder time hearing the bassist.

losing battle 10-05-2012 02:24 AM

^thanks, ill give it a shot didnt know about the distance from the wall thing so ill keep that in mind. We are currently in standard tuning so its best to solve this isdue now before we make it much worse.

gumbilicious 10-05-2012 02:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by losing battle
^thanks, ill give it a shot didnt know about the distance from the wall thing so ill keep that in mind. We are currently in standard tuning so its best to solve this isdue now before we make it much worse.


i also meant to say: 'keep the 2x12 on the ground' if you are trying to control it's volume. the closer to ear level the 2x12 is the louder it will sound.

and yeah, the closer to the wall it is, the less area is has to project off of. this will make it more 'beamy' like the 4x12, but it won't have the low end response due to the limited baffle. this should place you in the mix more and give more room for the bass (esp since you play in std).

losing battle 10-05-2012 02:39 AM

Thanks again as for the speakers the vintage 30 is rated at 60w at 8 ohms and the seventy 80 is rated at 80w at 8 ohms I'm wondering exactly if this will make any noticible difference at all. The db rating is 100 and 98 respectivly.

gumbilicious 10-05-2012 02:55 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by losing battle
Thanks again as for the speakers the vintage 30 is rated at 60w at 8 ohms and the seventy 80 is rated at 80w at 8 ohms I'm wondering exactly if this will make any noticible difference at all. The db rating is 100 and 98 respectivly.


the V30's tend to be more pronounced in the mids and will sound louder to the ear than many speakers i messed with. i have tried some speakers that are similar to the seventy 80's, they shouldn't have as much as a pronounced mids hump and should help them be less noticeable than the V30's. the 2 dB rating between the speakers will get swallowed by the perception in their voicing, (in other words: the V30's will sound louder more because of the mids bump rather than the +2 dB sensitivity).

another thing to consider, how big is this practice space? bass is less directional because of the wavelength of the notes. but bass wavelengths are longer, so depending on the size of the room you may be able to approach your problem from the opposite direction: how to make the bass have a more even response

http://www.realtraps.com/art_waves.htm

that talks about bass in a studio, but it's subject still focuses on how you perceive bass in a room and it has some good advice.

darkwolf291 10-05-2012 05:07 AM

It seems to me that this is as much a volume issue as it is an issue with the mix.

The point of playing in a band, is to make the band as a whole sound good.
When playing with a bassist and drummer, the low end is held down by the bassist (that's actually his entire purpose in the band) and the kick drum.
The treble is held down by the cymbals and snare, and the guitar to an extent.
The mids are where the guitar lies.

You want a thinner tone, because the bassist will add in the low end and make it sound fuller. Too much low end will make things sound like a muddy mess, so it's better to leave most of it to him.
Yeah, your tone will sound like ass by itself, but part of being in a band is thinking in terms of the entire mix, rather than your guitar sound.

That said, he needs a louder amp

tubetime86 10-05-2012 08:26 AM

^+1

losing battle 10-06-2012 12:12 AM

At gumbilicious here is a crude drawing of the room we often get stuck with.

G=guitar amp
D=drums
B=bass I don't know the effcts of the weird set up but I figured you like it.

Cathbard 10-06-2012 12:16 AM

Try sticking your amp on a milk crate. Get it off the ground - way off.

gumbilicious 10-06-2012 12:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by losing battle
At gumbilicious here is a crude drawing of the room we often get stuck with.

G=guitar amp
D=drums
B=bass I don't know the effcts of the weird set up but I figured you like it.


most the advice in that article is for square rooms. i'd say you should try to put the bass near the bottom of that drawing pointing toward the corner the drums are in. but experiment, another possibility is the top right of the room with the bass pointed toward the bottom left of the room.

Cathbard 10-06-2012 12:31 AM

The diagonal wall needs heavy drapes hung on it. That should tame the room nicely. Then get your bass amp off the ground and you should be fine I reckon.

gregs1020 10-06-2012 01:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by losing battle
He is using a hughes and ketner hk300 combo+ a harkte (eww) bass cab its what the rehersal space has and his current amp is significantly less powerull than the one we are provided, its a 100w ampeg 115 combo don't know the exact model. The idea here is hopefully the loss in speaker effeciency and low end will make up for my very loud set up. (With the mesa 412 it more than matches a cranked dual rectifier in volume with my amps volume knob set slightly less than two) Fortunatly I'm blessed with an uber loud drummer that can easily be heard over either of the amps no problem unless I turn my personal amp to 7.

your bassist should have 300-500 watts minimum at gigs.

that BA-115 is a practice at home amp.

trashedlostfdup 10-06-2012 01:31 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregs1020
your bassist should have 300-500 watts minimum at gigs.

that BA-115 is a practice at home amp.



i have waited for that to come up. i was pretty sure that would be the issue, but i did't feel confident to say so and didn't want to misinform.

most basses i play with use 500 watt amps. i have a 200 watt 2x10" + tweeter and its just loud enough for a loud practice. thankfully the bassists i play have ample equipment.

Cathbard 10-06-2012 01:41 AM

I've got away with bassists with amps that really weren't up to par. He'd just stick it as close to his head as he could and we DI'ed it as well and fed a little through the foldback for the rest of us. It's sub-optimal but you can get away with it. That's the beauty of bass - you can DI it and still sound good.

Blktiger0 10-06-2012 02:32 PM

First of all, I would suspect that you guys aren't experienced at EQ'ing for a band setting. In my band, we literally just fixed this same problem. Our bassist uses a 1x15 400w Peavey, and any time both guitars were playing, he was GONE in the mix. We tried a bunch of different stuff, and it basically came down to his EQ. He should be boosting his mids, with his bass fairly low and his treble set to taste. His most important frequencies are around the 800hz-1khz range, and you should be cutting those frequencies. You have to make room for each instrument in the mix. For example, My mids are boosted and I'm using a 10-band EQ in my loop to cut frequencies out for our bassist, who is boosting his mids, while our rhythm guitarist has his mids cut and his bass/treble boosted more. It tightened up our sound a good bit, and now it's easy to pick out all 3 instruments in our mix, without monitors. See, his mid frequencies are your lower-mid to bass frequencies, and your mid frequencies are his upper-mid to treble frequencies. You're gonna have to run less bass than normal. If you listen to recordings, usually all of the low-end thump comes from the bassist and the kick drum, while the guitars provide the grind and punch.

One of the tightest modern metal guitar sounds around right now is Lamb of God in my opinion, and here is a clip of just the guitarists playing:


There's not a whole lot of bass in their sound. It's still there, but it doesn't have the low end sledgehammer that their whole mix does. It's all in the drums and bass. I could have sworn that there was a video on YouTube from when they were using Mark IV's and they told you their settings. I wish I could find it again.


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