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whiplash_87 10-15-2012 01:05 AM

Trying to Learn some basic Theory
 
I have a question regarding the 7 modes, I had a friend show me the seven modes so I was memorizing them but I started looking at diagrams of the modes online and saw that it appears I am playing an extra note in each mode, if that doesnt make sense I will demonstrate below.

So this is the layout of the seven modes I found online when I was looking at diagrams:
Code:
Ionian |R|-|o|-|o| |-|-|o|-|o| |-|o|o|-|o| |-|o|R|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |R|-|o|-|o| Dorian |R|-|o|o|-| |o|-|o|o|-| |o|-|o|-|-| |o|-|R|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |R|-|o|o|-| Phrygian |R|o|-|o| |o|o|-|o| |o|-|o|-| |o|-|R|o| |o|-|o|o| |R|o|-|o| Lydian |R|-|o|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |-|o|-|o|-| |-|o|R|-|o| |-|o|o|-|o| |R|-|o|-|o| Mixolydian |R|-|o|-|o| |o|-|o|o|-| |-|o|o|-|-| |o|-|R|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |R|-|o|-|o| Aeolian |R|-|o|o|-| |o|o|-|o|-| |o|-|o|-|-| |o|-|R|-|o| |o|-|o|o|-| |R|-|o|o|-| Locrian |R|o|-|o| |-|o|-|o| |o|-|o|o| |o|-|R|o| |o|o|-|o| |R|o|-|o| And this is how I learned to play the modes Ionian |R|-|o|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |-|o|o|-|o| |-|o|R|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |R|-|o|-|o| Dorian |R|-|o|o|-| |o|-|o|o|-| |o|-|o|-|o| |o|-|R|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |R|-|o|o|-| Phrygian |R|o|-|o| |o|o|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |o|-|R|o| |o|-|o|o| |R|o|-|o| Lydian |R|-|o|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |-|o|-|o|o| |-|o|R|-|o| |-|o|o|-|o| |R|-|o|-|o| Mixolydian |R|-|o|-|o| |o|-|o|o|-| |-|o|o|-|o| |o|-|R|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |R|-|o|-|o| Aeolian |R|-|o|o|-| |o|o|-|o|-| |o|-|o|-|o| |o|-|R|-|o| |o|-|o|o|-| |R|-|o|o|-| Locrian |-|R|o|-|o| |o|-|o|-|o| |-|o|-|o|o| |-|o|-|R|o| |-|o|o|-|o| |-|R|o|-|o|


So My question is why am I playing this extra note in each one of the modes? And is this a correct way of playing them?

fenderbassist12 10-15-2012 01:11 AM

I don't understand your layouts of the modes. But you may be playing a repeat note? Since there are 7 notes in a scale, there are 7 different possibilities of standard mode sequences. However you can distort the major scale to add a flat or sharp note and it will change the entire 7 modes. You can even add a note and make an 8 note scale which would have some interesting bizarre sounds.

What note do you think you were playing extra since I can't understand your way of displaying them.

HotspurJr 10-15-2012 01:18 AM

Memorizing the seven modes is pointless. THe modes are not positions.

If you want to learn theory, go to musictheory.net or get a good book on theory a la Shroeder and Wyatt's "Harmony and Theory."

Seriously, this is not useful or meaningful theory in any way. Just stop.

fenderbassist12 10-15-2012 01:26 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
Memorizing the seven modes is pointless. THe modes are not positions.

If you want to learn theory, go to musictheory.net or get a good book on theory a la Shroeder and Wyatt's "Harmony and Theory."

Seriously, this is not useful or meaningful theory in any way. Just stop.



False. Every mode system (for example Greek Modes) use the same patterns. The patterns you play are relative to what key you want to play in. Memorizing the patterns of the modes can let you play in any mode as long as you know how to lock into the patterns of that key. I use the same patterns when I'm playing in E Dorian as I am when I am playing in G Locrian. They may not be the same place on the fretboard, but they are the same patterns and they just move depending on what key you want to play in.

whiplash_87 10-15-2012 01:28 AM

Let me try and explain the way I am showing the modes in the previous post, I basically am showing the shape of each mode. So for example...
Ionian was like this
|o|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|-|o|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|
|o|-|o|-|o|

I will show this example using an actual scale as well, I will show F Ionian
|F|-|G|-|A|
|C|-|D|-|E|
|-|A|Bb|-|C|
|-|E|F|-|G|
|Bb|-|C|-|D|
|F|-|G|-|A|

So do you see how G string I play notes A, Bb, and C then down on the B string I play notes C, D, and E? Well when I look at diagrams online it only shows that you play D and E on the B string. Does the layout I used for all seven modes make sense now?

fenderbassist12 10-15-2012 01:35 AM

Ohhh I see. Yes that is what I call the D form of the modes. There are 5 forms of the modes which overlap, and if you memorize them, you can find your lock in note and immediately start playing every note in any mode you want by using those patterns.

You aren't playing an extra note because C is part of the F Ionian Scale. The pattern you were looking at may have just not included it to make it simpler?

whiplash_87 10-15-2012 01:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
False. Every mode system (for example Greek Modes) use the same patterns. The patterns you play are relative to what key you want to play in. Memorizing the patterns of the modes can let you play in any mode as long as you know how to lock into the patterns of that key. I use the same patterns when I'm playing in E Dorian as I am when I am playing in G Locrian. They may not be the same place on the fretboard, but they are the same patterns and they just move depending on what key you want to play in.


I was told something similar, basically I was told to memorize these patterns because they are used in all scales it can just vary as to where they will be played on the fretboard

whiplash_87 10-15-2012 01:42 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
Ohhh I see. Yes that is what I call the D form of the modes. There are 5 forms of the modes which overlap, and if you memorize them, you can find your lock in note and immediately start playing every note in any mode you want by using those patterns.

You aren't playing an extra note because C is part of the F Ionian Scale. The pattern you were looking at may have just not included it to make it simpler?


Sorry I don't quite understand your explanation, could give an example or explain it a little more. I really am not to sharp on music theory at all ( as you can probably tell by this post)

fenderbassist12 10-15-2012 01:54 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiplash_87
Sorry I don't quite understand your explanation, could give an example or explain it a little more. I really am not to sharp on music theory at all ( as you can probably tell by this post)


OK you were right with what you said in your last post.

So you wanted to play in F Ionian. The notes in that scale are F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. You asked originally if you were playing an extra note because the B string didn't include the C on the pattern. If you drew out a fretboard and marked down every F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E on the fretboard, you would see these patterns. So you can start with F and play all of those notes and it will be in the key of Ionian.

However, say that instead you want to play in a different key that fits into F Ionian still. Thats where you lock in to the scales. You can play in C Mixolydian, and it still uses all of the notes in the F Ionian scale: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. It just starts with C. So it would be C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb. All it is doing is changing the maj7 to a flat 7. But you can do this with every note in that scale. All you are doing is changing the intervals of the notes relative to the starting note. But you use the same exact pattern in doing so.

So if you want to play in F Ionian you use the pattern you drew out. But if you want to play C Mixolydian, you use the same pattern you drew out, but you just use C as your key note rather than F. Does that make sense?

AeolianWolf 10-15-2012 02:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
False. Every mode system (for example Greek Modes) use the same patterns. The patterns you play are relative to what key you want to play in. Memorizing the patterns of the modes can let you play in any mode as long as you know how to lock into the patterns of that key. I use the same patterns when I'm playing in E Dorian as I am when I am playing in G Locrian. They may not be the same place on the fretboard, but they are the same patterns and they just move depending on what key you want to play in.


modes are a lot more than positions on the fretboard or patterns. i advise you to keep that in mind. if you insist otherwise, then i invite you to tell me how a composition that resolves to E using the notes E F# G A B C# and D cannot be said to be in E minor. not to mention i highly doubt you're ever playing in G locrian - unless you want to tell me you're playing pieces that tonicize half-diminished seventh chords, of course.

and, frankly speaking, if you think E dorian is a key, you need to look into studying some more yourself before asserting your opinions.

TS, if you're really looking to learn some basic theory, try this. you're going down the wrong path right now and you're going to end up in all the wrong places.

whiplash_87 10-15-2012 02:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
OK you were right with what you said in your last post.

So you wanted to play in F Ionian. The notes in that scale are F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. You asked originally if you were playing an extra note because the B string didn't include the C on the pattern. If you drew out a fretboard and marked down every F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E on the fretboard, you would see these patterns. So you can start with F and play all of those notes and it will be in the key of Ionian.

However, say that instead you want to play in a different key that fits into F Ionian still. Thats where you lock in to the scales. You can play in C Mixolydian, and it still uses all of the notes in the F Ionian scale: F, G, A, Bb, C, D, E. It just starts with C. So it would be C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb. All it is doing is changing the maj7 to a flat 7. But you can do this with every note in that scale. All you are doing is changing the intervals of the notes relative to the starting note. But you use the same exact pattern in doing so.

So if you want to play in F Ionian you use the pattern you drew out. But if you want to play C Mixolydian, you use the same pattern you drew out, but you just use C as your key note rather than F. Does that make sense?


So I understand that if I am playing any of the 7 modes in the F major scale they all will contain the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb and the patterns stay the same for all scales but the root note just changes and that in turn changes the other notes in the scale?

I dont know what maj7 and flat 7 means exactly..... I have a lot to learn I know.

whiplash_87 10-15-2012 02:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
modes are a lot more than positions on the fretboard or patterns. i advise you to keep that in mind. if you insist otherwise, then i invite you to tell me how a composition that resolves to E using the notes E F# G A B C# and D cannot be said to be in E minor. not to mention i highly doubt you're ever playing in G locrian - unless you want to tell me you're playing pieces that tonicize half-diminished seventh chords, of course.

and, frankly speaking, if you think E dorian is a key, you need to look into studying some more yourself before asserting your opinions.

TS, if you're really looking to learn some basic theory, try [url=http://www.musictheory.net]this[url]. you're going down the wrong path right now and you're going to end up in all the wrong places.



....And I am lost,

I understand there is probably a lot more to modes than just the positions, but the positions for each mode stay the same don't they? Isn't it useful info to memorize these patterns? Or am I completely wrong ( I take no offense to your responses) I am hear to learn

AeolianWolf 10-15-2012 02:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiplash_87
So I understand that if I am playing any of the 7 modes in the F major scale they all will contain the notes C,D,E,F,G,A,Bb and the patterns stay the same for all scales but the root note just changes and that in turn changes the other notes in the scale?


that's basically the idea behind modes, but if you spend enough time with them and learn more about tonal music, you'll be able to make conclusions for yourself about how useful they really are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiplash_87
I dont know what maj7 and flat 7 means exactly..... I have a lot to learn I know.


these are concepts that will serve you far better than anything involving modes -- i suggest you go to concepts like that. use the link i recommended.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiplash_87
....And I am lost,

I understand there is probably a lot more to modes than just the positions, but the positions for each mode stay the same don't they? Isn't it useful info to memorize these patterns? Or am I completely wrong ( I take no offense to your responses) I am hear to learn


pretty much the only thing they're useful for is getting something under your fingers. it's good to learn them as positions of the major scale across the neck, but do yourself a favor and don't think of them as modes, because they're really not.

whiplash_87 10-15-2012 02:33 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
that's basically the idea behind modes, but if you spend enough time with them and learn more about tonal music, you'll be able to make conclusions for yourself about how useful they really are.



these are concepts that will serve you far better than anything involving modes -- i suggest you go to concepts like that. use the link i recommended.



pretty much the only thing they're useful for is getting something under your fingers. it's good to learn them as positions of the major scale across the neck, but do yourself a favor and don't think of them as modes, because they're really not.


I think someone else referred that link as well, I will check it out. and as far as calling them modes goes I will try not to do that I wasn't sure what I should have technically called them in the post.

I have another question for you, you said to learn them as the positions of the major scale but are they not the same for a minor scale?

fenderbassist12 10-15-2012 03:09 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
if you insist otherwise, then i invite you to tell me how a composition that resolves to E using the notes E F# G A B C# and D cannot be said to be in E minor..


E minor just indicates there is a flat 3. That scale you showed is in E Aeolian. I don't know what you are trying to say about modes just being positions on a fretboard because they are not, the positions just help you play the modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
not to mention i highly doubt you're ever playing in G locrian - unless you want to tell me you're playing pieces that tonicize half-diminished seventh chords, of course.



When I'm playing in G locrian I just use G as the root note and play other notes consisting of G#, Bb, C, C#, F, and G. Usually I would focus my bassline on the tension between the C and the C#, as that is what is unique to G locrian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
and, frankly speaking, if you think E dorian is a key, you need to look into studying some more yourself before asserting your opinions.



Can you explain why E dorian is not a key? I see E dorian as a scale with a 2, flat 3, 4, 5, 6, flat 7. Its just variation to the minor scale along with melodic and harmonic minor.

mdc 10-15-2012 04:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
When I'm playing in G locrian I just use G as the root note and play other notes consisting of G#, Bb, C, C#, F, and G. Usually I would focus my bassline on the tension between the C and the C#, as that is what is unique to G locrian.

Wow! Just, wow.

Anyway, "in the key of E Mixolydian"
4th paragraph.

Isn't his name like Steve Vai or something?

fenderbassist12 10-15-2012 04:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdc
Wow! Just, wow.


After reading that I realize I left out the Eb in that scale. But do you have anything else to say?

mdc 10-15-2012 04:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbassist12
After reading that I realize I left out the Eb in that scale. But do you have anything else to say?

Still wow, just wow.

fenderbassist12 10-15-2012 04:18 AM

So do you want to correct me?

mdc 10-15-2012 04:26 AM

In a diatonic scale you can only use a letter once.


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