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-   -   Secondary Dominant chords in Heavy Metal? (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1569894)

Power Metal Kid 10-26-2012 12:54 PM

Secondary Dominant chords in Heavy Metal?
 
It recently occured to me that Heavy Metal rarely features tracks with secondary Dominant chords. For the life of me I can't figure out a Metal track with one in. Anyone out there know of any?

AeolianWolf 10-26-2012 12:55 PM

no - they're not really idiomatic to the style. in a way, it's kind of like asking about classical riffs. doesn't go.

macashmack 10-26-2012 01:43 PM

Why don't you try to use them in your songs, it'll sound unique.

blazing riff 10-26-2012 01:58 PM

Since it's a typical jazz thing (where you can turn all your chord into dominants in one key) you won't find them easely since 99% of metal is in a minor key!

griffRG7321 10-26-2012 01:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazing riff
Since it's a typical jazz thing


lol.

EpiExplorer 10-26-2012 02:12 PM

Try some neo-classical bands/artists, Malmsteen and Spawn of Possession spring to mind.

AeolianWolf 10-26-2012 04:34 PM

how about "try classical"? that is where they originated...

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazing riff
Since it's a typical jazz thing (where you can turn all your chord into dominants in one key) you won't find them easely since 99% of metal is in a minor key!


you can absolutely find secondary dominants in a minor key.

immediately comes to mind. it's a little faster than originally intended by the composer, but that's not the focus here.

British_Steal 10-26-2012 04:39 PM

Perhaps its because most metal players dont know very much about harmony since they tend to think they are above music theory for some reason and thus dont bother investigating whats happened in music in the past few hundred years or so. Therefore, the sound of secondary dominants just isnt in their ears so they use whats more familiar or simpler.

Works for them.

poisonousmetal 10-26-2012 08:30 PM

Dream Theater must use it somewhere..

MaggaraMarine 10-27-2012 06:31 AM

They are used in neo classical (because secondary dominant - dominant kind of gives that classical feeling). Heavy metal (I mean more like extreme metal, Iron Maiden for example is pretty harmonic) isn't usually that harmonic and the riffs are based on power chords rather than major/minor chords. Usually there's a riff in E (or whatever) minor that uses some power chords that don't really have any function. Listen to Metallica for example. The riffs are in E minor and use E, F, F# and G power chords for example but they are kind of non functioning chords. If the song is too harmonic, it starts to sound a bit like classical music (power metal for example). If you play a riff with constantly changing chords, it doesn't sound as aggressive as if you play a fast riff in E minor that uses some power chords. It kind of becomes "happier" or "sadder" but less aggressive.

What kind of heavy metal are you talking about? Because today when you say that you listen to metal, it means more like modern extreme metal, at least here in UG. Power metal, folk metal and neo classical metal are more harmonic than thrash or death metal.

But same goes with rock. The songs have some harmony but they are really riff based songs. There's one riff in A and then you play the same riff in E (like in Welcome to the Jungle) and the only functioning chords are A and E even though there are many power chords in the riff.

In classical music the chords usually change more often. There are I-V-I-V-I progressions all the time.

blazing riff 10-27-2012 05:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
how about "try classical"? that is where they originated...



you can absolutely find secondary dominants in a minor key.

immediately comes to mind. it's a little faster than originally intended by the composer, but that's not the focus here.



Of course you can find them, but the video you showed isn't really representative since it's written by Chopin, a classical composer. Sure you can do a cover, but hey, if you'll search long enough you'r sure to find a second dominant chord somewhere!

Hail 10-28-2012 12:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazing riff
Of course you can find them, but the video you showed isn't really representative since it's written by Chopin, a classical composer. Sure you can do a cover, but hey, if you'll search long enough you'r sure to find a second dominant chord somewhere!


what the hell does that have to do with the chord being functional in a minor key

tonality doesn't care whether you're playing power chords or a piano, what century you're in, or what accidentals you play

:-D 10-28-2012 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazing riff
Since it's a typical jazz thing (where you can turn all your chord into dominants in one key) you won't find them easely since 99% of metal is in a minor key!

hngh urgh ugh yikes this thread blows

AeolianWolf 10-28-2012 01:37 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazing riff
Of course you can find them, but the video you showed isn't really representative since it's written by Chopin, a classical composer. Sure you can do a cover, but hey, if you'll search long enough you'r sure to find a second dominant chord somewhere!


...your point is not only meandering, but it has no merit, and no counter-explanation. frankly, if you had half an idea what you were talking about (and some fragment of experience with music to back it up), you wouldn't argue your point.

if you want to provide an argument, give me facts. your opinion is meaningless and useless to anyone but you -- that's why i don't give opinions in my posts (unless i specifically express that i'm stating an opinion).

Power Metal Kid 10-28-2012 11:08 AM

I don't suppose anyone has an example of Metal using them?

AeolianWolf 10-28-2012 01:06 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Power Metal Kid
I don't suppose anyone has an example of Metal using them?


not heavy metal, no. like i said, they're simply not idiomatic to the style. we covered this in the first post.

british_steal has a valid point - a lot of metal players don't know theory/aren't musically trained, so they just go by what they emulate from other metal players, who also were like them. the people who are musically trained and aware of other genres who play/write metal generally won't write it with secondary dominants, because, again, it's not idiomatic to the style.

that said, if you know how to write metal, and you know what a secondary dominant is, i see absolutely no reason why you need an example and why you can't write it yourself. if you're really bent on finding an example for some reason, i'd follow maggara's suggestion and sift through power metal, folk metal, and/or neoclassical metal. the likelihood you'll find it in any metal genre outside of those is pretty slim.

ibanez1511 10-28-2012 08:51 PM

hi.

i believe 'nothing else matters.' is in the key of e minor.
a B7 crops up in the harmony. i.e the dominant to E.
At a later point, the bridge ? i think there are chords similar to C ,A and then D
in key the A would be an A minor . but here it is an A major and as it precedes a D major it works as a 'secondary?' dominant . in fact there is a good chance that the vocal line provides the b7 (the g note)

AeolianWolf 10-28-2012 09:14 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibanez1511
i believe 'nothing else matters.' is in the key of e minor.
a B7 crops up in the harmony. i.e the dominant to E.
At a later point, the bridge ? i think there are chords similar to C ,A and then D
in key the A would be an A minor . but here it is an A major and as it precedes a D major it works as a 'secondary?' dominant . in fact there is a good chance that the vocal line provides the b7 (the g note)


if you have to leave it to a "chance" that the vocal line provides the b7, then i'm really wondering...not to mention that for it to function as a dominant seventh, it would need to resolve to an F#.

however, chords don't need to have a seventh to be considered a secondary dominant. it's an interesting observation, and i think it would actually be considered a secondary dominant - it's a V/VII in E minor, and it functions as such.

not to get into semantics, but i'd hardly consider "nothing else matters" a heavy metal song. the reason i bring this up is because i'm not sure this is what TS is after.

Hail 10-29-2012 12:06 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
not to get into semantics, but i'd hardly consider "nothing else matters" a heavy metal song. the reason i bring this up is because i'm not sure this is what TS is after.


depends on how you get into it, some people would call even zeppelin and AC/DC heavy metal

just one of james hetfield's "HUH"s is 10x as heavy as both of their entire catalogs

but that's just cause i'm used to thinking of heavy metal as "leather jackets and power chords" rather than metal as a whole

ts what would you like to contribute to this discussion

Xiaoxi 10-29-2012 12:38 AM

I thought Iron Maiden and some power metal bands used secondary dominants...


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