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-   -   PA system or PA system Substitue (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1571758)

hey_joe42 11-06-2012 09:03 PM

PA system or PA system Substitue
 
Hello, please direct me if this is the wrong catergory to post this under.
But I am like most muscians, not very weathly and I would like to buy one PA system that will suit my needs for the rest of my life. I currently got a band together, but we jam at my house and I need something to hear vocals on. Also wanted a pa system to play drums to. (my guess is noise cancelling headphones would work).
What I'm trying to figure out is can I buy something a bit cheaper say under a grand that would be a good start. And then add to the rest of the system as needed. My wife wants the bathroom redone, I want a PA.

My ideal PA system, is one with a mixer, probably powered mixer, with 8-24 channels. (I'd like to mic drums, or be able to use it to mix drums, vocals, guitar, bass into recording later on, maybe just another mixer though might do the trick years down the road), 2 big speakers with stands, and atleast one monitor.
I already got some mics and some stands.

I have been looking at buying something like a Yorkville 100 Watt Powered Monitor/ Instrument Wedge. As can be seen here:http://www.long-mcquade.com/?page=products&ProductsID=357 .
I'm wondering if that will tie over the vocals for awhile. if that is enough power in a 170 sq ft room with a punk rock band with drums? Or is there some other solutions before I end up buying the big speakers, stands and mixer equipment, or am I best to save up for a system.

I appreciate any input so far the local guitar stores keep trying to sell me a fender passport system and I don't think that is powerful enough.

AlanHB 11-06-2012 09:17 PM

Mate, if you want to mic drums/bass, you need subs. No way around it (although theoretically you could have 2x12s for the fronts too, but they're big and heavy).

I think you should buy nice gear, and build it up slowly. Yorkville is a great brand but perhaps not the best bang-for-buck out there. If you have an open mind check out some of the powered speakers on the market (QSC K-12, JBL PRX612, EV ELX 112p, etc). With these you have plug-and-play type thing for your immediate use (plug Mic/guitar straight into the speaker, they have a 2 channel mixer built into the speaker) whilst you build up the rest of your PA with mixer, subs and other goodies.

mrsixstrings12 11-06-2012 10:58 PM

If you want ALL of that youre gonna have to raise your budget a bit haha the PA my band uses was more than triple than your budget. id stay away from powered mixers. ive heard bad things about them and they also limit you on expanding in the future. I'd look for something with at least 300 watts to be safe. Harbinger makes a good "bang for your buck" speaker and mixer wise i'd look at the yamaha MG206C. We use QSC power amps but thats just what we ended up getting. they've worked out and handled the road quite well

91RG350 11-07-2012 02:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hey_joe42
...... My wife wants the bathroom redone, I want a PA.....

Good luck with that.

hey_joe42 11-07-2012 03:21 AM

My budget is around 2500 after a few years, Just for now to have money for bathroom I am looking at 1000. Powered Speakers sound like the ideal way to go, didn't know I didn't need a mixing board to use them. So now if I get 1-2 Powered speakers of decent wattage, later on down the road do I just need a mixer or mixing board....or do I also need a powered amp. Seems like a silly question but I am just not a PA expert?

AlanHB 11-07-2012 07:02 AM

^^^^ There's a guy around here, Phil Starr, he IS a PA expert. But I can tell you what I know.

So basically a PA is like this:

Source - whatever makes the noise

Microphone/something to interpret the source (Amp etc)

Mixer - To take the source/s in and output them at different levels

Amp - To make mixer output louder

Speakers - To project the output of the mixers


To get the sound out, you need all these things.

For example a singer: Voice - Microphone - Mixer - Amp - Speakers

If you have a powered mixer, the amp is built into it, so you can go straight from the mixer to the speakers. If there are powered speakers, you don't need an amp in the mixer (passive mixer). If you have a hugely massive rig, everything is generally separate.

So to answer your question, if you have powered speakers, do you need a powered amp?

The answer is no, because the line would be like:

Voice - Microphone - Mixer - Amp - Amp - Speaker

You only need one amp :)

To go even further, some of these new fangled powered speakers have a small mixer in the back of them. For example the Elx 112P has a 2 channel mixer there, separate volume knobs etc, pretty limited. But it's a start, and if you just wanted to practice, it would be a great start, as it's rated at something silly like 1000 watts, and can get very, very loud.

However, I wouldn't then go out and gig with just a microphone plugged into a speaker. I'm just suggesting something that you can definitely build around, that you likely won't upgrade for a very long time (if ever).

GaryBillington 11-07-2012 07:42 AM

Enjoy your new bathroom.

hey_joe42 11-07-2012 11:38 PM

Thanks Alan, for your very informative reply that clears it up.

mrsixstrings12 11-09-2012 03:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
^^^^ There's a guy around here, Phil Starr, he IS a PA expert. But I can tell you what I know.

So basically a PA is like this:

Source - whatever makes the noise

Microphone/something to interpret the source (Amp etc)

Mixer - To take the source/s in and output them at different levels

Amp - To make mixer output louder

Speakers - To project the output of the mixers


To get the sound out, you need all these things.

For example a singer: Voice - Microphone - Mixer - Amp - Speakers

If you have a powered mixer, the amp is built into it, so you can go straight from the mixer to the speakers. If there are powered speakers, you don't need an amp in the mixer (passive mixer). If you have a hugely massive rig, everything is generally separate.

So to answer your question, if you have powered speakers, do you need a powered amp?

The answer is no, because the line would be like:

Voice - Microphone - Mixer - Amp - Amp - Speaker

You only need one amp :)

To go even further, some of these new fangled powered speakers have a small mixer in the back of them. For example the Elx 112P has a 2 channel mixer there, separate volume knobs etc, pretty limited. But it's a start, and if you just wanted to practice, it would be a great start, as it's rated at something silly like 1000 watts, and can get very, very loud.

However, I wouldn't then go out and gig with just a microphone plugged into a speaker. I'm just suggesting something that you can definitely build around, that you likely won't upgrade for a very long time (if ever).


+1

hey_joe42 11-12-2012 07:01 PM

I looked around at powered speakers in town, doesn't seem like its going to be a good idea. These guys keep steering me clear of it as for good one's its expensive, and I think were a bit out of my league. Plus i then realized I would need more plugs around the house and I'm not sure I have those.. actually I don't yet.
So I was wondering they are trying to sell me a powered mixer which are also very expensive i can afford a good one of those, but not two big speakers as well.
They've recommended the yorkville M1610 with the yorkville YR15 speaker cabs. All very nice gear. I'm wondering, if I could get the YR15s, and than buy a powered amplifier for the speakers and then later safe up for the mixer. But still use the speakers with the amplifier even if its only one mic?

AlanHB 11-12-2012 10:51 PM

Nope, you need a mic pre-amp which generally don't feature in a passive speaker or stand alone amp.

Anyways you wouldn't happen to be living close to an authorised Yorkville dealership would you?

From Amazon:

Yorkville YX 15: $299.25 ($598.50/pair)
Yorkville M1610: $1079.20

600 watts total - 300 watts/side. 9 xlr inputs.

Total: $1, 677.70

EV Elx 112p: $569.99 ($1, 139.98/pair)
Soundcraft EFX12: $390

1000 watts/side. 12 Mic inputs.

Total: $1, 529.98

So who said the powered speakers were more expensive?

Edit:

Here's another idea. Get 2 of these: http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-EUR...n/dp/B002C4QWXQ

That will set you back less than $400.

Can you put a mic in them? Yep. Chuck a mic straight in one and daisy chain it with the other.

Do they sound good? Yep (especially for the price).

Can you make them foldbacks when you're ready to upgrade? Yep.

hey_joe42 11-13-2012 08:31 PM

I would usually only expect this much help from someone earning a commission, but thank you this will help greatly.

AlanHB 11-14-2012 02:56 AM

No worries dude. Glad to help.

This post brought to you by EV, Soundcraft and Behringer.

hey_joe42 11-28-2012 04:56 PM

alright so close to being decided. These things are quite complicated thats all I got to say. Alright so one more question. Would I be able to get by with a bass amp? I currently got a 300 watt amp and I don't usually use it the bass player does, but i learned that its maxed out every practise. So I was thinking I could either buy a new bass amp or mic that one.

So I'm wondering if I could buy just one of them EV ELX115. and use it with a mixer to do vocals and bass. First would running a bass thru a mixer be adequate or would you need a preamp for hte bass? Next could 1000 watts out of the EV be good for vocals and bass. And maybe later would the EV work as a bass amp only and would it need a preamp??

Or might it be more cost effective at this time to just buy a larger bass amp and use it for vocals during band practise (forget about my current bass amp not being powerful, it is adequate its just taht its at is max) and if need be we could rent a pa system for gigs. And then wait to see where the band goes and eventually save up for better pa system than a bass amp if the band desires that for playing shows. Basically askign if a bass amp is adequate enough. And what about playing music thru a bass amp for jamming drums too, just looking for hearing when the drummer hits the kick, toms and stuff.

AlanHB 11-28-2012 11:51 PM

Mate, you must have some loud practices if you're maxing out a 300 watt bass amp. My bass amp is 150 watt, and rarely goes beyond half at practice. If that's not loud enough, your bassist can use his own amp.

On basses and PAs, most amps have a balanced output which you will opt to DI into the PA. If you choose to not use an amp, the resulting sound is pretty muddy, it's usable, but still muddy, and you have little control over the tone (past the controls on the mixer).

The bass frequencies take up the most power from the PAs, so most people opt to use subwoofers if they are going to mic up basses and kick drums. This allows for more free power to go towards the vocals/guitars. Putting all through one speaker can drain it pretty easily. Pop into a PA store and ask to hear the difference between a bass playing through a 12/15" speaker and the speaker plus sub. Once you hear the sub, you need the sub. Would one 1000 watt head be enough for everything? Probably not.

Could you buy an ELX115? Sure can. Should you use it as a bass amp? Well would you use it as a guitar amp? Hopefully you have found your answer to that one.

The best solution for you I think is:

1. The bassist can use his own awesome bass amp. If he does not own a bass amp he can suck it up or buy one.

2. Buy a PA that you can expand. Firstly just aim to get the vocals going through the front, and perhaps an acoustic guitar for solo gigs. The rest of the band can play through their amps. So get something like 2 x ELX112p, and a mixer with at least 12 channels.

3. Later down the track, invest in some subwoofers to mic up the bass and bass drums.


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