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-   -   Band problems - song rights? (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1574289)

parkt921k 11-22-2012 06:49 PM

Band problems - song rights?
 
Greets,

I figured this would be a good place to put this question.

My latest music project recently broke apart. It was basically me and another guy, my music partner, and we have had a total falling out. So, no relationship at all anymore.

My question relates to so-called "song rights". We recorded a 12 song album on his computer at his apartment (on his daw). He wrote (essentially) all of the music, and I wrote (essentially) all of the lyrics and sang (and came up with vocal melodies). I also played guitar on most of the tracks.

He wants to tell me that the 12 songs are somehow "taboo", meaning that I can't form a band and play any of these 12 songs, or that I can't even play them acoustically at a bar without his permission.

I am just curious as to what my rights are. I would really like to put a new band together, write some new stuff, and play 3 or 4 songs off the 12 song album.

I would assume I would have a '50/50' split of rights, meaning that I WOULD be able to form a band and play any of the songs I wish - even all 12!

If so, what would my obligations be? For right now, I'm just talking about getting a band together, teaching them some of these songs, and eventually play 10 or 20 shows, at least at first, including whatever of this album that I want.

This question is keeping me from starting a new band, because I don't know what to tell the guys I talk to.

Btw, tomorrow night I'll be around a few musicians who I would possibly invite to jam and maybe start something. Appreciate all responses!

Tom

jazz_rock_feel 11-22-2012 06:59 PM

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/foru...d.php?t=1053221

The answer is probably in there somewhere.

ccannon1 11-22-2012 07:30 PM

Did you write the melody? Did you write the lyrics? iirc those are legally what a song is and if you've written those you're entitled to songwriting credits, and if you've played on these recordings you're entitled to performance credits, unless he somehow bought those rights from you.

parkt921k 11-22-2012 07:40 PM

yeah, I just read:

Quote:
Now, for all intents and purposes, a "song" is comprised of lyrics and a melody for purposes of copyright. In general terms, drum beats, riffs, bass lines, etc. don't count. Just because you jammed with your buddies and came up with a full band arrangement of a bunch of chords and riffs strung together, you have not made up a song. You have made up an 'accompaniment' to a song. You most likely have no legal leg to stand on in terms of copyright.


And I wrote 99% of the lyrics, quite literally, and did about 95% of the work on melody lines. I say 95% and not 100%, because what we would do - we'd hit record, I'd have the headphones on with the mic on, I'd sing whatever came to mind, and we'd record 4 or so of what I called 'scratch-tracks'. We'd then go over them, pick out the good parts, and try to string one melody line together from the best of 4 (or however many). So, that 5% is the credit I'd give my music partner to 'his part' (i.e. arranging (right word?), not composing) of the vocal melody.

Anyways, it sounds like I'm in pretty good shape, that I (gulp) even have more rights to these songs than he does!

Sure, on the album, he did all the chord sequences, piano, synth, bass, drum programming, - but it doesn't sound like, from the paragraph above, that this means much.

This is actually really good news. Really

ccannon1 11-22-2012 07:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by parkt921k
yeah, I just read:



And I wrote 99% of the lyrics, quite literally, and did about 95% of the work on melody lines. I say 95% and not 100%, because what we would do - we'd hit record, I'd have the headphones on with the mic on, I'd sing whatever came to mind, and we'd record 4 or so of what I called 'scratch-tracks'. We'd then go over them, pick out the good parts, and try to string one melody line together from the best of 4 (or however many). So, that 5% is the credit I'd give my music partner to 'his part' (i.e. arranging, not composing) of the vocal melody.

Anyways, it sounds like I'm in pretty good shape, that I (gulp) even have more rights to these songs than he does!

Sure, on the album, he did all the chord sequences, piano, synth, bass, drum programming, - but it doesn't sound like, from the paragraph above, that this means much.

This is actually really good news. Really


He might be entitled to more performance rights than you, which is simply the amount of money paid out to each person playing on the album, which I don't think is your issue right now.

The only thing you've got to do now is PROVE that you've written these things and get them copyrighted.

parkt921k 11-22-2012 07:48 PM

Yeah, I'm not even yet talking about selling the album at a future show, and figuring out how much money I should send to him.

It would be very easy for me to prove I wrote them. Many of the lyrics were of poems and such that I had posted on the songwriting forum, from 2006-2009. I also have the paper sheets that I originally wrote all the lyrics down on, during our late night songwriting processes. It's pretty much proof. Also, there's no way, even though we will always be on bad terms, that my music partner would lie and say that he wrote the lyrics or some such nonsense.

I was also wondering about copyrighting - If I should include him, or if I should just name myself. Hey, I'm just looking out for myself, right? But I don't want to do anything 'sneaky', i.e. if I owe him a certain kind of credit in the copyrighting process, then I'll damn well give it to him. What that is, I'm not sure.

But I just want to be clear - can I start telling musicians I meet, that I have the full right to play these songs with them live?

btw album is in the sig

parkt921k 11-22-2012 07:55 PM

My other point, is that it would be nice to be able to show my ex-music partner some proof on the internet somewhere that I have the rights to play these songs with a different band. Because I would want to inform him that I was starting a band to play these songs, before I started playing shows (I don't need his permission to start putting a band together, though - although he would probably say that I do, the over-controller..)

jazz_rock_feel 11-22-2012 08:07 PM

Also, there's probably no (worthwhile) legal recourse for either of you. So this is really a question of whether you feel okay playing the songs without him. No one's suing anyone here unless you're both idiots with a lot of money to burn.

leony03 11-22-2012 08:18 PM

If you aren't charging money for people to see you play these songs, then I dont think it matters. Only when it comes to things like you charging entry or for an album with these songs on does it matter.

If you really are going down the copyright route, I would say include his name as he did write stuff. If you wrote the majority of the melodies (vocal or guitar etc), then I guess you have a bit more leverage.

I would just speak to him dude. That's the best way to sort it all out.

Artemis Entreri 11-22-2012 08:31 PM

Proof and copyright are two differnet things. I've seen people get screwed from writing something first and having someone else copyright it. It's getting BETTER now with everything time and date stamped but still. If you truly want the rights to it, copyright it.

dudebud 11-22-2012 08:40 PM

Honestly dude, who cares. Just play them and let him whine about it. If you perform the songs live he will get performance royalties (and so will you) as long as you file your setlists with ASCAP. The only way he could do something about it is if he sued you and he won't do that unless you had a hit.

parkt921k 11-22-2012 08:45 PM

I'll be sure to copyright asap

Quote:
If you aren't charging money for people to see you play these songs, then I dont think it matters. Only when it comes to things like you charging entry or for an album with these songs on does it matter.


That's the thing - I would plan on being paid to play these songs, and for this I would NOT send him any money. I would possibly plan on selling the 12 song album at future shows, including his writing credit written on the inside. For this, I would give him a 10% cut (just send the money directly to his bank account). Not anything more - I think this would be fair, considering I am talking about very small amounts of money here. IF it were to start getting bigger after a year or two, I would think then I could renegotiate, but believe me - I would not plan on earning more money than beer and gas money for at least a year or two.

I could talk to him, but he would likely be of the opinion that he is entitled to more than he actually is under law. If we're talking garage band status, a few little gigs here and there, I think I can pretty much safely say screw him. Exactly, what's he going to do - sue me? Good to hear I'm the one with the leverage . Thx for the responses

Robfreitag 11-22-2012 09:31 PM

Just use them, give him credit in the album cover, if you get a serious deal or make real money out of it, that's probably when you'll have to talk to him and maybe a lawyer.

But for now, it's not really that serious, not making much money so I don't think it matters.

Side note: reminded me of metallica / mustain relations on kill em all. except I think some of those songs were mostly Daves, not shared... Dont get into that kind of thing.

swave75 11-22-2012 11:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robfreitag
Just use them, give him credit in the album cover, if you get a serious deal or make real money out of it, that's probably when you'll have to talk to him and maybe a lawyer.

But for now, it's not really that serious, not making much money so I don't think it matters.

Side note: reminded me of metallica / mustain relations on kill em all. except I think some of those songs were mostly Daves, not shared... Dont get into that kind of thing.

This is what I was thinking. Make sure to give him any credit he deserves. And I believe since it was the two of you, things should be split 50/50. They are your songs too so don't hesitate to perform them live. Good luck.

zbarovsky 11-23-2012 12:11 AM

Look this exact same thing happened in my last band when my drummer left he wanted one of the songs because he had "done everything" even though he came up with like two lines for the song, but really you just gota come to an agreement and basically you should keep what you have done yourself and give him what he did himself if that screws you both over so be it you can write new stuff but thats just my opinion.

AlanHB 11-23-2012 12:44 AM

I'll just add my opinion as I've been through this a couple of times.

Firstly, the legal rights in this thread are pretty spot on. Copyright covers melody and lyrics, and rarely anything else.

Secondly, just because somebody else part or wholly wrote a song does not mean that you cannot perform that song in public. Cover bands are a perfect example of this. Usually a venue will have pre-paid a licence for artists to perform in their venue whatever songs they wish, and no copyright is infringed.

Thirdly, if you start playing with a new group of people it's quite possible that a new/different arrangement for the music will be made, so that's one consideration.

Fourthly, and most importantly, your reputation is everything. Although playing these songs is not legally infringing on anybody's rights, the ex-member may be hurt regardless and tell people that you "stole/took credit for his song".

The easiest way to address this situation is by simply stating before or after you play a couple of songs "hey these couple of songs were worked on by myself and my buddy Mr X, unfortunately we're no longer playing together but they turned out awesome. Cheers dude!" (Break into song).

amonamarthmetal 11-23-2012 01:00 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
Firstly, the legal rights in this thread are pretty spot on. Copyright covers melody and lyrics, and rarely anything else..

WTF, that means all the stuff in the tabs and chords section can be "stolen" or ripped off? ****ing copyright laws...

AlanHB 11-23-2012 01:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by amonamarthmetal
WTF, that means all the stuff in the tabs and chords section can be "stolen" or ripped off? ****ing copyright laws...


UG pays for the licence to host them. It is the reason that UG is the primary source (if not one of the only sources) of tabs on the internet.

If you're talking about someone taking a tab off UG then claiming it as their own, tabs/chords are far more likely to be covered as a literary work rather than a musical work. So say the chords in themselves, played as you hear them mayn't attract musical copyright, but write down a transcription and they're covered as a literary work.

Of course the question then comes as to who is the true author, is it you, or is it Metallica? I think I know the answer to that one.

parkt921k 11-23-2012 12:39 PM

just to give a point of reference of what I'm talking about, this message is from a month and a half ago, regarding me playing two of our songs at a tiny bar in front of 8 people:

Quote:
I had to think about something in the last days concerning your gig at Hummels Eck on friday and I came to the conclusion that I don't really like the idea that you play TCA songs there. Mainly my disappointment comes from the fact that you didn't ask me if it's okay. And that's what you would have had to do. I would never play or use our songs anywhere without asking cause we both have a 50% author right (or however this is called in english). So our songs are a kind of tabu. It might have been okay if you would have asked ...
However, I will not forbid playing the TCA songs on friday, I just want you to know that the more happens stuff like this the more sceptical and disappointed I am ... Sorry, man! I don't really understand you ...


that's what I'm dealing with. I gather this is all bullsh*t

and btw when I did play there, I announced his name to the 8 people who couldn't care less

amonamarthmetal 11-23-2012 01:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
UG pays for the licence to host them. It is the reason that UG is the primary source (if not one of the only sources) of tabs on the internet.

If you're talking about someone taking a tab off UG then claiming it as their own, tabs/chords are far more likely to be covered as a literary work rather than a musical work. So say the chords in themselves, played as you hear them mayn't attract musical copyright, but write down a transcription and they're covered as a literary work.

Of course the question then comes as to who is the true author, is it you, or is it Metallica? I think I know the answer to that one.

I'm talking about The Tabs&Chords section.... things that people on this forum make to show other members.


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