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-   -   Need help with Neo Classical Metal (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1579826)

Raizatso 12-27-2012 10:21 AM

Need help with Neo Classical Metal
 
I always wanted to play a classical melody in the guitar like malmsteen , thing is I got nailed with theory in jazz, i keep on my mind this mode (Pentatonic minor->Major->Dorian->Phrygian->Mixolydian and goes back to Pentatonic Minor)

Now i really enjoy this mode, but i have this urge to turn into a neo classical metal player or play a darker melody, I've been looking in the ultimate guitar lessons and tips, i got the idea of Cicle of fifth's, Arpeggios and so on, but i can't seem to connect harmonic minor,melodic minor scales into modes, I've searched other websites and they keep explaining in a confusing way.

Can some please enlight me with this scales mode or just tell me the sequence?
I really want to play classic melody in guitar or a darker melody

Hail 12-27-2012 11:12 AM

forget scales, learn some classical and neoclassical

TheNameOfNoone 12-27-2012 11:18 AM

If you came to UG expecting to get some classical music knowledge, you're gonna have a bad time.
:D
Just kidding, maybe there's somebody who knows that stuff... It's not me tho.

poisonousmetal 12-27-2012 11:19 AM

You don't nee d the sequence, as Phrygian Dominant(Yngwies thang) is a just the Phrygian with a major third. So I highly recommend making your own sequence tree(I have mine), based on the scale you're most familiar with. First, get the sound of Phrygian, Harm minor, Melodic minor etc. in your head, so that even when you're humming there's the knowledge of what you're doing.

poisonousmetal 12-27-2012 11:21 AM

AND most important, learn some!

Hail 12-27-2012 11:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNameOfNoone
If you came to UG expecting to get some classical music knowledge, you're gonna have a bad time.
:D
Just kidding, maybe there's somebody who knows that stuff... It's not me tho.

isn't half this forum full of music students?

plus, there's almost nothing classical about neoclassical other than ripping off far more significant composers. it's its own aesthetic, very far from the realm of classical music in logic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonousmetal
You don't nee d the sequence, as Phrygian Dominant(Yngwies thang) is a just the Phrygian with a major third. So I highly recommend making your own sequence tree(I have mine), based on the scale you're most familiar with. First, get the sound of Phrygian, Harm minor, Melodic minor etc. in your head, so that even when you're humming there's the knowledge of what you're doing.


i'm gonna hurt you bad

CryogenicHusk 12-27-2012 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raizatso
I always wanted to play a classical melody in the guitar like malmsteen , thing is I got nailed with theory in jazz, i keep on my mind this mode (Pentatonic minor->Major->Dorian->Phrygian->Mixolydian and goes back to Pentatonic Minor)

Now i really enjoy this mode, but i have this urge to turn into a neo classical metal player or play a darker melody, I've been looking in the ultimate guitar lessons and tips, i got the idea of Cicle of fifth's, Arpeggios and so on, but i can't seem to connect harmonic minor,melodic minor scales into modes, I've searched other websites and they keep explaining in a confusing way.

Can some please enlight me with this scales mode or just tell me the sequence?
I really want to play classic melody in guitar or a darker melody


I can't tell from experience because I'm not quite there yet, but what seems to have worked for a lot of people, including some of the neoclassical shred greats, was listening to baroque music or other neoclassical guitarists, such as Malmsteen, and transcribing their music. You can think about the theory part when you want to examine and explain what they did, but it's better you don't confine yourself to scales and "modes" when writing (especially considering you seem to be an experienced enough player to start to look beyond scales), and just listen A LOT, transcribe, and then when you want to write, write from what you hear in your head.

poisonousmetal 12-27-2012 11:25 AM

Easy, Hail, easy. He asked for the scalar knowledge, I suggested just getting the sound in his head so that when it comes at him from Yngwie, or anywhere he knows. I think THAT is the way to learn a scale, not just as a pattern. That's just me though.

Hail 12-27-2012 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonousmetal
Easy, Hail, easy. He asked for the scalar knowledge, I suggested just getting the sound in his head so that when it comes at him from Yngwie, or anywhere he knows. I think THAT is the way to learn a scale, not just as a pattern. That's just me though.


do i need to be like xiaoxi and put it in my sig my opinion of scales

Quote:
it's a stepping stone into theory. when you ask yourself "when do i know enough theory?" it's probably when you have to don't rely on a scale or shape to know what you're doing and what other people are doing

poisonousmetal 12-27-2012 11:33 AM

To make Hail happy:
What said, it's obviously the theory part, not application, BUT your ear is still your most important tool, so just follow it. I have 1 neo-classical piece which actually has no particular scale, so I'd recommend just following the ear, learning some Yngwie & Becker and just use theory for analyzing pieces.

poisonousmetal 12-27-2012 11:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
do i need to be like xiaoxi and put it in my sig my opinion of scales

If the person is like that well, he is limiting himself(not you or xiaoxi, the example given). But the just a guideline of notes that go together in a way. They ARE meant to be broken, not just to limit.

Artemis Entreri 12-27-2012 12:11 PM

Not really...transcending the need for scales to make music isn't that limiting. It's quite liberating, rather.

griffRG7321 12-27-2012 12:38 PM

The key to playing neoclassical metal

- play fast scales
-play fast arpeggios
-steal some classical melodies
-tell all of your friends that it's neoclassical
-don't tell anyone who actually knows what neoclassical music is because they will laugh at you

poisonousmetal 12-27-2012 01:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis Entreri
Not really...transcending the need for scales to make music isn't that limiting. It's quite liberating, rather.

Depending on them, because if a person knows the song is in let's say A and plays basically equally sounds on a song on G, represents a limitation of creativity, as every key has it's own harmonic tendencies for everyone and some intonation problems in the guitar, and that he actually just depends on the shapes. Which wouldn't be the thing the user shouldn't do.

Hail 12-27-2012 01:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonousmetal
Depending on them, because if a person knows the song is in let's say A and plays basically equally sounds on a song on G, represents a limitation of creativity, as every key has it's own harmonic tendencies for everyone and some intonation problems in the guitar, and that he actually just depends on the shapes. Which wouldn't be the thing the user shouldn't do.



poisonousmetal 12-27-2012 02:41 PM

I haven't slept in a couple days I should really stop writing

Raizatso 12-27-2012 02:42 PM

Also I noticed in my guitar jouney...
Theres this times i can sense how repetitive it get's when I'm improvising :S
I'm trying to break that chain thats limiting my creativity!
My guitar teacher says the solution is to feel the music and instead of following the scales patern create something diferent, but when i release myself from it the notes dont seem to have connection, even based with the scales notes.

I've learned myself some malmsteen songs (assuming i was classicaly trained when I started with the guitar basics) and i get the idea of writting a melody or transcribing what the guitarrist is playing cause I do it myself, but i placed this question mostly because where I live is hard to find other genre guitarrists, because most of guitarrists here dont give a crap about lead guitar, or getting classicaly trained and do some nice solos and actually dedicate to the guitar.

So I asked here because this place have people from everywhere, and I know theres guitarrists wich are more experiencied then me here.

In my mind I have this melody, but when to transfer to guitar my mind just completely locks in the scales, god damn for me being nailed at the theory!

Artemis Entreri 12-27-2012 02:54 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by poisonousmetal
Depending on them, because if a person knows the song is in let's say A and plays basically equally sounds on a song on G, represents a limitation of creativity, as every key has it's own harmonic tendencies for everyone and some intonation problems in the guitar, and that he actually just depends on the shapes. Which wouldn't be the thing the user shouldn't do.


That was the most poorly constructed block of text I think I've ever read. It's barely even forgivable if English is your second language.

I've read that thrice and I don't even know what you're saying.... so if you could clarify what "and plays basically equally sounds on a song on G, represents a limitation of creativity..." [sic].

Every key doesn't have it's own harmonic tendancies.... a I IV V I is the same in every key. Go listen to the well tempered clavier. Before we had equal tempered tuning you would be slightly more correct, but not now. And honestly, I think Db sounds different from D. That being said, HARMONIC tendencies? No.

evolucian 12-27-2012 03:21 PM

Quote:
Also I noticed in my guitar jouney...
Theres this times i can sense how repetitive it get's when I'm improvising :S
I'm trying to break that chain thats limiting my creativity!
My guitar teacher says the solution is to feel the music and instead of following the scales patern create something diferent, but when i release myself from it the notes dont seem to have connection, even based with the scales notes.


The art of the solo transcends shapes. Of course if you look at it afterwards you will find patterns. But not to think of them, that is the key... to that door. There's another door after that... but griff stole the key. English... pffft. Can't trust them with anything.
Quote from a white boy:

show


And that is how you write a solo. One shot and feel it - unless it's an instrumental with multiple solos which would equate to loneliness as one doesn't have a vocalist to rip off anymore. Listen to a lot of Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore, Tony MacAlpine, Jason Becker and Marty Friedman (Cacophony), goodgodihavetomention Chris Impelliteri, At Vance, etc. Listening and understanding will be your salvation. Oh wait. We're talking about neoclassical... no need to feel it. Scrap that zen rubbish for this genre. Just follow everyone elses advice and use this post as a paper weight or bookmark.

Raizatso 12-27-2012 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by evolucian
The art of the solo transcends shapes. Of course if you look at it afterwards you will find patterns. But not to think of them, that is the key... to that door. There's another door after that... but griff stole the key. English... pffft. Can't trust them with anything.
Quote from a white boy:

show


And that is how you write a solo. One shot and feel it - unless it's an instrumental with multiple solos which would equate to loneliness as one doesn't have a vocalist to rip off anymore. Listen to a lot of Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore, Tony MacAlpine, Jason Becker and Marty Friedman (Cacophony), goodgodihavetomention Chris Impelliteri, At Vance, etc. Listening and understanding will be your salvation. Oh wait. We're talking about neoclassical... no need to feel it. Scrap that zen rubbish for this genre. Just follow everyone elses advice and use this post as a paper weight or bookmark.



Thanks!I'll do my best! :)
Rock on! \m/


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