UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com

UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/index.php)
-   Musician Talk (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=8)
-   -   Contrapuntal Inversions (Guitar Examples) (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1580101)

crazysam23_Atax 12-29-2012 01:51 AM

Contrapuntal Inversions (Guitar Examples)
 
So...I got interested in Math Rock the other day, which in a very roundabout way led me to looking up what contrapuntal inversions are. I think I understand the principle. However, I was wondering if anyone knew of any examples in guitar music of contrapuntal inversions. (For me, seeing guitar examples would help me out a lot.) Any tabs that are linked or such would be greatly appreciated; and, if you feel any explanations are required, please feel free.


Thanks, guys!

griffRG7321 12-29-2012 06:25 AM

>Wants to learn counterpoint
>Asks for tabs

chronowarp 12-29-2012 06:33 AM

bach loved tabs
troof

Hail 12-29-2012 09:53 AM

wikipedia is a dangerous realm for the unskilled guitarist

meandering throughout the web, trying to find out why people have bass players and drummers instead of just 6 guitarists and seeing if redtube has any girls with braces to appeal to his age group. unbeknownst to him, however, he is being stalked by information far too powerful for his ears.

Quote:
what's that?

says crazysam23_Atax
Quote:
an obscure genre of music that makes me seem talented? hell yeah, i'll wikipedia it. wikipedia knows everything right? hey, i remember some guy on some forum on some site talking about these big words, i bet they use that in fall-of-troy-world! too bad i don't know music theory, so i'll go to my favorite tab site! they'll surely help me out!


this is just one of many cases that occur every year. pitch axis theory, phrygian dominant, all predators waiting to prey upon the poor soul's ability to learn, blinding the way with temptation and wrong-doing, and wikipedia is the enabler. wikipedia is the dad beating his son for being a pussy, and UG is that black veil brides video where the dumb poser kid rebels because he's an emo(tional teen) that's deeper than deep.

we need to shut down wikipedia or we're enabling recycled metalcore riffs and 14-year-old-girl-moistening frontmen. also tab sites, fuck those places.

Nietsche 12-29-2012 12:34 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
we need to shut down wikipedia or we're enabling recycled metalcore riffs and 14-year-old-girl-moistening frontmen.


Ye Gods, my eyes have now been opened to the conspiracy.

crazysam23_Atax 12-29-2012 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
wikipedia is a dangerous realm for the unskilled guitarist

[snip]

Wow, you really seem like an asshole. 1) It's hardly like I'm some kid looking to play Metalcore. (I'm 24, for one. Not really some "out-of-place" emo-fag-looking teen who loves anything by Fall of Troy or All That Remains.) I despise Metalcore.
2) I have studied basic music theory. (I know what counterpoint is, for one, and find the exercises teachers make you do to learn it to be annoying.) I don't see the issue in asking you all for help in finding specific examples of contrapuntal inversions, except for the fact that all of you are being assholes about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by griffRG7321
>Wants to learn counterpoint
>Asks for tabs

Forgive me for thinking there might be some tabs of Bach songs. Or that maybe someone could direct me to some examples of classical guitarists who use contrapuntal inversions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
also tab sites, fuck those places.

We're on a tab site, so real smart comment that.

Xiaoxi 12-29-2012 02:07 PM

uh....I don't think there's such a thing as contrapuntal inversions........

chronowarp 12-29-2012 02:21 PM

TFOT is metal core now? lol

dannydawiz 12-29-2012 02:31 PM

This might help you.

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/mus303/contrinv.html

As far as examples on the guitar I don't know sorry.

Hail 12-29-2012 03:08 PM

lol isn't the fall of troy math rock

crazysam23_Atax 12-29-2012 04:33 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
uh....I don't think there's such a thing as contrapuntal inversions........

Well, the way it's been described to me is that is that it goes up one way (so say it goes up by intervals to a major third) and then it goes down (inverts, from that major third to the root), all in counterpoint of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannydawiz
This might help you.

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/tas3/mus303/contrinv.html

As far as examples on the guitar I don't know sorry.


Thank you! Much appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hail
lol isn't the fall of troy math rock

Hey, look what wikipedia told me.

jazz_rock_feel 12-29-2012 05:03 PM

I can't tell if you're talking about inverted melodies or invertible counterpoint.

AeolianWolf 12-29-2012 05:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Well, the way it's been described to me is that is that it goes up one way (so say it goes up by intervals to a major third) and then it goes down (inverts, from that major third to the root), all in counterpoint of course.


seems like you're talking about contrapuntal inversions.

compare the prime (P) with the inversion (I):



Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Thank you! Much appreciated.


that link is talking about invertible counterpoint - i.e. double counterpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
I can't tell if you're talking about inverted melodies or invertible counterpoint.


same reason i chose not to comment.

you're not really going to find much in the way of counterpoint in tabs - counterpoint is something that gets very visual, and good counterpoint would be nearly impossible to read in tabs unless you took that shit really slowly, which would almost defeat the purpose since you're training yourself to learn a skill with no real use. counterpoint is much easier to understand through music notation.

you say you know basic music theory, but you want to get into complex counterpoint and your experience with music notation is limited? i'll try to be a little less of a dick than the other guys but i'm still going to be brash: you're not ready. you need more experience, more study, and more application to be able to effectively use the concepts you want to employ. counterpoint is a difficult beast and it's very easy to make counterpoint that sounds dry and academic. you need experience listening to lots and lots of good counterpoint to write good counterpoint.

if you want experience with counterpoint, focus more on the masters of it (palestrina, bach, brahms, even mozart to a degree) rather than math rock. understand counterpoint at its peak first. then come back, listen to math rock, and, with your thoroughly internalized understanding (underlined because i cannot emphasize that enough), analyze how it's used in modern styles.

study more music theory and familiarize yourself far more with music notation. counterpoint isn't something you can learn from a tabbed example like a scale. it requires a lot of in-depth study and immersion -- even within music, it's almost like a language all its own.

Xiaoxi 12-29-2012 05:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
I can't tell if you're talking about inverted melodies or invertible counterpoint.

yea these 2 make much more sense but I still don't know what exactly you're referring to..........

crazysam23_Atax 12-29-2012 06:40 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
I can't tell if you're talking about inverted melodies or invertible counterpoint.
I think invertible counterpoint is another name for it.

Nietsche 12-29-2012 06:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
yea these 2 make much more sense but I still don't know what exactly you're referring to..........


At this point I'm not even sure if crazysam knows what he's referring to.

crazysam23_Atax 12-29-2012 06:53 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
seems like you're talking about contrapuntal inversions.

compare the prime (P) with the inversion (I):





that link is talking about invertible counterpoint - i.e. double counterpoint.


Ah, that's it exactly.

Quote:
you say you know basic music theory, but you want to get into complex counterpoint and your experience with music notation is limited? i'll try to be a little less of a dick than the other guys but i'm still going to be brash: you're not ready. you need more experience, more study, and more application to be able to effectively use the concepts you want to employ. counterpoint is a difficult beast and it's very easy to make counterpoint that sounds dry and academic. you need experience listening to lots and lots of good counterpoint to write good counterpoint.


I never said that my experience with music notation was limited. I understand music notation just fine. I've taken a few classes where we used it exclusively. (I was a music minor for awhile.)

Quote:
if you want experience with counterpoint, focus more on the masters of it (palestrina, bach, brahms, even mozart to a degree) rather than math rock. understand counterpoint at its peak first. then come back, listen to math rock, and, with your thoroughly internalized understanding (underlined because i cannot emphasize that enough), analyze how it's used in modern styles.


I wasn't planning on using Math Rock as a study tool. Math Rock was just what started me thinking in this direction. Any specific examples of Bach, Brahms, or Palestrina you would suggest?

Quote:
study more music theory and familiarize yourself far more with music notation. counterpoint isn't something you can learn from a tabbed example like a scale. it requires a lot of in-depth study and immersion -- even within music, it's almost like a language all its own.

I understand the basics of counterpoint; I have studied it on my own. I'm looking for examples, which you provided a few composers; for which you have my thanks.

Keth 12-29-2012 08:37 PM

Everything from Bach is counterpoint, really. In fact, his works for solo instruments (even forgetting about keyboards here) are the pinnacle of counterpoint.

At the moment I'm checking out this one:


I like the next renditions a lot, the panning and/or choice of instruments make the voices a lot easier to hear:




National_Anthem 12-29-2012 08:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I think invertible counterpoint is another name for it.


They both refer to different things... The inversion of a melody is one where the contours are reversed: a rising 5th would be replaced be a falling 5th, and so on - in other words a mirror image of the melody.

Invertible counterpoint is where two lines can be swapped around in the texture and still work as a counterpoint. It relies on the inversion of intervals, for example, the inversion of a 5th is a 4th, a 6th is a 3rd, and that both intervals will be consonant in both "contrapuntal inversions".

This just reminded me, there's a Bach fugue where he has an invertible counterpoint which works with subject in the Prime (I know it's not the right word for non-serial music, but tired and can't think of the right word atm), and inverted positions :eek:
What a bastard :(

AeolianWolf 12-29-2012 09:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I never said that my experience with music notation was limited. I understand music notation just fine. I've taken a few classes where we used it exclusively. (I was a music minor for awhile.)


there's a difference between "i understand the information just fine" and "i own the information". a few classes doesn't really get you to a level of proficiency. i was a music major and it took me quite some time to really be able to look at a score and analyze it on sight. continue developing your proficiency.

or you can choose to flaunt your ego, tell me that i don't have a handle on what i'm talking about, and that's fine - you'll be left to your own devices. but you'll find that you'll be completely floored by counterpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
I wasn't planning on using Math Rock as a study tool. Math Rock was just what started me thinking in this direction. Any specific examples of Bach, Brahms, or Palestrina you would suggest?


start simple. start with bach's 2-part keyboard inventions. palestrina, despite having come earlier than bach, has a style of more graceful counterpoint, but it's pretty difficult to analyze. you can try a few chorales if you like. as for brahms? xiaoxi knows him far better than i do - hunt down xiaoxi and ask him for detailed examples of brahms' contrapuntal technique. i'm sure he'd be glad to help you.


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:48 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.