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kashmir0109 01-18-2013 07:50 PM

Mode Help Please
 
I'm in an argument with someone. Can someone settle this once and for all?!

The bet that I claimed was that "D Dorian is in the key of D"

He said it wasn't, claiming it was in the key of C. Five minutes later he said "D Dorian isn't in the key of D Major" . Which I agreed with, since that's not true.

Then he said that since I said D Dorian is in the Key of D, I was implying D Major. I wasn't, I was using the word "key" literally, meaning the tonal center.


Is or is not the key of D Dorian in the key of D?

AlanHB 01-18-2013 08:20 PM

Both of you are wrong.

D dorian is in the mode of D dorian. Modes developed into keys roughly 200 years ago.

If you played D dorian in the key of C you would be playing the C major scale and nothing more.

All you're doing is using the major or minor scale, adding some accidentals and giving it a pretty name.

chronowarp 01-18-2013 08:22 PM

Dorian isn't a key.

There are two keys: major, and minor. Named by the quality of the tonic, and solidified by a tonic-dominant relationship.

Dorian is a mode. IT's a mode of the C major scale, in that, the notes in that mode are diatonic to C major, however, that has no relevance to anything.

jazz_rock_feel 01-18-2013 08:38 PM

D Dorian is centered on D and D Dorian contains the same notes as the diatonic C major scale so everyone's a winner! Or loser depending on your wont.

:-D 01-18-2013 09:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kashmir0109
Then he said that since I said D Dorian is in the Key of D, I was implying D Major. I wasn't, I was using the word "key" literally, meaning the tonal center.

think you mean "incorrectly", not "literally"

HotspurJr 01-18-2013 09:30 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kashmir0109
I'm in an argument with someone. Can someone settle this once and for all?!

The bet that I claimed was that "D Dorian is in the key of D"

He said it wasn't, claiming it was in the key of C. Five minutes later he said "D Dorian isn't in the key of D Major" . Which I agreed with, since that's not true.

Then he said that since I said D Dorian is in the Key of D, I was implying D Major. I wasn't, I was using the word "key" literally, meaning the tonal center.

Is or is not the key of D Dorian in the key of D?


The vast majority of contemporary music that uses the Dorian scale (which is to say, Minor with a raised six) is best thought of as being in D minor. If you were writing it out, you would use the key signature for D minor (one flat). To indicate the B natural note (as opposed to the Bb of D minor) which makes the scale "Dorian" you would place a natural symbol before the B note in the staff to cancel out the flat in the key signature.

The notes of the D Dorian scale (which is actually used by some people, contrary to what you'll hear on UG) are the same as the notes of the C major scale. Your friend's claim that it is in the "key of C" is based on the mistaken understanding that a key is defined by the notes it contains. The truth is that you have access to all 12 notes in all keys. Using a non-diatonic note (called an "accidental") doesn't change your key.

A key is defined by it's tonal center and it's quality (major or minor) - although in rock music even the quality can be left ambiguous.

So your friend's second comment "That D means D major" is also wrong. In a rock context, which places a large emphasis on mixing parallel major and minor keys, "D" can just mean "D." I've been in plenty of jams where we were "in E," but a lot of minor was being used by everyone.

Hopefully this helps clarify things some.

AlanHB 01-18-2013 09:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr

So your friend's second comment "That D means D major" is also wrong. In a rock context, which places a large emphasis on mixing parallel major and minor keys, "D" can just mean "D." I've been in plenty of jams where we were "in E," but a lot of minor was being used by everyone.

Hopefully this helps clarify things some.


+1 to everything else you said, but are you proposing that you jam in a harmonic context that is neither major, minor nor mode and still has a tonal centre?

food1010 01-18-2013 10:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
+1 to everything else you said, but are you proposing that you jam in a harmonic context that is neither major, minor nor mode and still has a tonal centre?
I think he's saying that it's both major and minor (at different times), rather than saying it's neither.

Saying you're "in D," is generally understood to mean "in the key of D major" though. Any use of minor would be considered modal mixture. If you're primarily in minor though, you should always specify that.

Let's look at blues, for example. If you were to say "this is a blues in E," you would generally play E7 A7 and B7. Even if you use the Em pentatonic, it still is a major tonality. However, if you want the chords to be Em7 Am7 Bm7 (or B7, either way), you NEED to specify that it's a minor blues.

HotspurJr 01-18-2013 11:31 PM

What I meant is that sometimes I'd been in jams where they've just called on the note, and note the quality, and we've sort of figured it out as we went.

But of course a lot of times the chords will be major but the melody minor pentatonic, which makes it a little more complicated - not just in blues situations. I feel like there's flexibility when it comes be being in major or minor.

AlanHB 01-19-2013 12:49 AM

^^^ No worries, random improv around a topic.

Xiaoxi 01-19-2013 12:54 AM

....so basically you guys were betting who's dumber?

Click here to see who won

chronowarp 01-19-2013 03:13 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotspurJr
What I meant is that sometimes I'd been in jams where they've just called on the note, and note the quality, and we've sort of figured it out as we went.

But of course a lot of times the chords will be major but the melody minor pentatonic, which makes it a little more complicated - not just in blues situations. I feel like there's flexibility when it comes be being in major or minor.

I think it's still more than sufficient to call that "D". I mean, in a lot of rock there's so much quasi-modal stuff going on, that it really is an inseparable blend of major and minor at the same time.

Junior#1 01-19-2013 04:07 AM

You're both wrong. The easiest way to think about it is that it's the dorian mode with a tonal center of D. It happens to have the same notes as the C major scale, but that doesn't matter at all.

Deadds 01-19-2013 07:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior#1
You're both wrong. The easiest way to think about it is that it's the dorian mode with a tonal center of D. It happens to have the same notes as the C major scale, but that doesn't matter at all.


-_- hmm... :rolleyes:

mdc 01-19-2013 07:56 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kashmir0109
The bet that I claimed was that "D Dorian is in the key of D"

How much you place on the bet?

Btw, after all the above explanations, I bet you still haven't got a clue, and that's cuz you haven't got the ****ing foundations down.

If you had the fundamentals, you wouldn't need to seek confirmation from us.


































































































:)

Hail 01-19-2013 03:35 PM

y'know, any new regs we have here have to be some serious masochists to put up with this kinda stuff until we get bored and leave them alone

liampje 01-19-2013 06:54 PM

D dorian is a mode, not a key.

Don't focus on modes for now, just focus on major and minor keys.

AlanHB 01-19-2013 07:06 PM

^^^ Welcome back!

liampje 01-19-2013 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
^^^ Welcome back!

:cheers:

macashmack 01-19-2013 10:03 PM

mdc i have noticed that you are partial to putting a word or two in your posts after holding he "enter" key down for quite a bit.


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