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-   -   Modes over Progressions (http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1585488)

kashmir0109 01-29-2013 07:27 PM

Modes over Progressions
 
Quick question:

I have an A Aeolian rhythm progression going. I can play D Dorian over it, and it'll sound like its still in A Aeolian given the context.

But if I play A Dorian over an A Aeolian progression, then it'll sound Dorian?

mdc 01-29-2013 07:44 PM

No no, if you play dorian over lydian then it'll sound mixo.

Hail 01-29-2013 07:53 PM

you do know the term "progression" supersedes the conventions of modality, right?

a mode is incredibly primitive (or potentially non-existent) harmonically, relying on the melody to provide the foundation of the piece. a vamp would be the most sophisticated option available, lest you run the risk of providing too powerful a pull to the tonic and establishing it in the realm of western tonality (but likely very weakly executed as it seems almost an exercise in futility rather than artistry)

otherwise, you end up with something modal (and likely very weakly executed as it seems almost an exercise in futility rather than artistry)

rockingamer2 01-29-2013 08:04 PM

You should completely forget that and start your theory up from scratch. You post is chock full of wrong.

I also want to know ask you a couple questions:


What notes are available to me when playing over this progression? C G Am F

If I play the following notes over that last chord progression, what key am I in? E F G A B C D E

AeolianWolf 01-29-2013 08:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kashmir0109
Quick question:

I have an A Aeolian rhythm progression going. I can play D Dorian over it, and it'll sound like its still in A Aeolian given the context.

But if I play A Dorian over an A Aeolian progression, then it'll sound Dorian?


all aboard the nope train to ****thatville

lemme break this down for you:

1) you have a progression in A minor? yeah you're not playing D anything anywhere. you're playing A minor.

2) if you play an A dorian scale, you're still playing in A minor -- you've just got an F# in there.

3) if you want a dorian sound, trash your progression and make a vamp using dorian. you could alternatively just sharpen all of the Fs in your harmony, but you run the likely risk of changing your tonal center entirely if you don't really know what you're doing.

suffice it to say that you aren't really ready for modal concepts yet, because you don't really seem to grasp the importance of a key, especially over a mode in modern musical contexts.

modes =/= progressions. they're just not in the vocabulary. the very essence by which something is permitted to "progress" is not possible using modes. the best you're going to do is a vamp before it starts to sound like it's in a key (which is most music, keep in mind).

Hail 01-29-2013 08:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
modes =/= progressions. they're just not in the vocabulary. the very essence by which something is permitted to "progress" is not possible using modes. the best you're going to do is a vamp before it starts to sound like it's in a key (which is most music, keep in mind).


this would be the logical thing to sig

however

D..W.. 01-29-2013 08:35 PM

If you're asking about how something will sound... well... Your ears can tell you that far better then we can. Just try it.

(Although you probably should pay attention to what the others have said, too, they're right.)

20Tigers 01-30-2013 12:35 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kashmir0109
Quick question:

I have an A Aeolian rhythm progression going. I can play D Dorian over it, and it'll sound like its still in A Aeolian given the context.

But if I play A Dorian over an A Aeolian progression, then it'll sound Dorian?

Yes

Jehannum 01-30-2013 06:10 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
suffice it to say that you aren't really ready for modal concepts yet, because you don't really seem to grasp the importance of a key, especially over a mode in modern musical contexts.


If he learns why his current thinking is wrong - starting with studying the replies to this thread - it will reinforce his understanding. I'm beginning to think that learning wrong stuff about modes can actually be a good lesson if it's later corrected because you see the right stuff from a different perspective.

AlanHB 01-30-2013 06:36 AM

^^^ You could just learn the correct way the first time.

Hail 01-30-2013 01:33 PM

hendrix used modes in all his music

Akherousia 01-30-2013 01:57 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
^^^ You could just learn the correct way the first time.

Oh, please.
People learn best through trial and error - and to expect perfection right from the get-go is downright naive. If your mentality is seriously 'learn it right from the beginning or gtfo' then you aren't really in any position to be trying to assert your superiority over another person.

Making mistakes is natural if you wish to progress, and I find it hard to believe that you were so perfect right from the get-go either - regardless of how badly you may want to think so. :haha:

macashmack 01-30-2013 02:25 PM

Im superior simply because. Get at me.

Hail 01-30-2013 03:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akherousia
Oh, please.
People learn best through trial and error - and to expect perfection right from the get-go is downright naive. If your mentality is seriously 'learn it right from the beginning or gtfo' then you aren't really in any position to be trying to assert your superiority over another person.

Making mistakes is natural if you wish to progress, and I find it hard to believe that you were so perfect right from the get-go either - regardless of how badly you may want to think so. :haha:


modes aren't even a mistake - they're a travesty for someone's musical education if they don't understand functional harmony and keys yet. overprioritization of scales made me completely relearn essentially everything, and many members of this forum can relate to getting fucked by smoking mirrors as budding musicians.

rockingamer2 01-30-2013 03:58 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Akherousia
Oh, please.
People learn best through trial and error - and to expect perfection right from the get-go is downright naive. If your mentality is seriously 'learn it right from the beginning or gtfo' then you aren't really in any position to be trying to assert your superiority over another person.

Making mistakes is natural if you wish to progress, and I find it hard to believe that you were so perfect right from the get-go either - regardless of how badly you may want to think so. :haha:

Who are you to assert that trial and error is the best way that one can learn something? He's not expecting people to get it exactly right the first time, he wants people to not go down the completely wrong path. Having a completely screwed up understanding of music theory can't be excused by "trial and error."
Trial and error can also lead to pit falls if one is self taught because there isn't someone more knowledgeable to catch the errors.

Sloop John D 01-30-2013 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kashmir0109
Quick question:

I have an A Aeolian rhythm progression going. I can play D Dorian over it, and it'll sound like its still in A Aeolian given the context.

But if I play A Dorian over an A Aeolian progression, then it'll sound Dorian?


Don't worry, you're not nearly as far behind as people here are suggesting.

The answer is that it depends on your progression. Some progressions can be ambiguous and must rely on the melody to establish the key. For example, if you have a progression that is built with Aminor, CMajor, Eminor, these chords could fit easily into either A Aeolian or A Dorian. A progression of this type would sound like A Aeolian if you play A Aeolian over it, and it will sound like A Dorian if you play A Dorian over it.

If you have a chord progression that is firmly set in A Aeolian, like Aminor, Dminor, Eminor, then playing A Dorian over the song will not make it sound like you are playing in Dorian. The F# from A Dorian will clash with the F from A Aeolian and it will sound dissonant or "wrong" to your ears.

You could potentially throw in a riff from A Dorian at points where there is no F note being played and it will probably sound pretty good, but those brief moments are not likely to cause the listener to hear a full modulation to the Dorian mode. Hendrix used to throw in a Dorian lick over an Aeolian song every so often toward his last year.

Akherousia 01-30-2013 04:59 PM

RockingGamer2: I never indicated it was the right way, simply that it is common and natural. The damage is not beyond repair, and to imply otherwise is foolish and wrong - at least in this context.

Getting it right the first time is obviously the ideal situation, but we all know that wasn't the case otherwise this thread wouldn't be here in the first place - therefore a remark like 'get it right the first time' is completely unnecessary and serves no purpose other than to brag and proclaim you're better than him. :rolleyes:

I can understand how my post gave off the wrong impression, but I was just waking up when I typed it out so I'll take responsibility for the miscommunication. My argument is merely that it's contextually inappropriate and redundant to point out, that's all.

steven seagull 01-30-2013 05:19 PM

Learning by trial and error is the best way to learn things in the absence of any form of guidance from a person with experience or without any kind of reference material to draw from.

We now have access to hundreds of years of musical study and exploration to study at out leisure for free, we can ask a question and have people from all over the world respond to it..

To suggest trial and error is "the best", or even a good way to learn in our modern environment is ludicrous.

Hail 01-30-2013 05:28 PM

trial and error is all well and good...when you have the foresight and intuition to understand a lack of efficiency, or in general a line of thought that deteriorates from musical topics (that, at this level, TS doesn't know in any extent)

Akherousia 01-30-2013 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by steven seagull
To suggest trial and error is "the best", or even a good way to learn in our modern environment is ludicrous.

Sounds like you've grossly misinterpreted my post and utterly ignored my most recent post clarifying the issue. I won't repeat myself beyond this point, but since people are having difficulty grasping the point I'll explain it one last time: Claiming that it's better to get it right the first time is, without a doubt, a valid argument - but completely irrelevant and useless after the fact. This thread is exactly that, after the fact. It's like treating a snakebite with 'don't get bitten'. Yes, it's valid - but it doesn't help you once you've found yourself in that position, and while it is definitely crucial to try and get things right from the very beginning to avoid having to correct yourself, the reality of life is that mistakes happen and we do learn more often from mistakes and trial & error than we do being 'perfect from the start' - regardless of guidance.

It's simply pointless to bring it up after the fact, and while I can understand how my initial post was piss-poor in terms of properly conveying that point - you have no excuse to not see the point I'm trying to make now that I have actually clarified. If you still wish to assume that my stance is that T&E is the only valid means of which one learns, then that is a fault of your own and it's not my burden to try and correct the misinterpretation anymore. :shrug:

@Hail: I agree with pretty much everything you've said, but he is making an effort to learn by asking questions. It's just not necessary to respond to TS in the manner AlanHB did, which essentially was posted with the sole intention of contradicting the mentality that it's important for the TS to read through the thread and correct his misunderstanding with the alternative (albeit paraphrased) 'don't get it wrong in the first place!' which.. as I said earlier, is too little too late and thus unnecessary.

I'm sure you can see where I'm coming from, and if not then.. well, that's fine too. I don't think I have nothing more to add to this though, so I'll just leave it at that. ;)


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