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Old 10-30-2012, 08:53 PM   #161
Redsectoreh
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I always think of this:

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Old 10-30-2012, 11:52 PM   #162
Jostry
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My biggest question is, since God is an all powerful being that can do anything, and that nothing is impossible for him, why can't God just kill Satan RIGHT now? If he can do anything, why doesn't he just snap his fingers and bam, Satan dies.

Instead, he plans a certain date for the second coming of Jesus, which will then start a war between angels and demons, and God and Satan, and in the end God will kill Satan and everybody will be judged in the final judgement.

Why all that drama and war, if God could just do it by snapping his fingers? Why start a war if you know you're gonna win anyways?

Also, why did God put us here on earth first, instead of creating us on heaven straightaway? And if God knows the past, present and future, doesn't that mean that we technically DON'T have free will? If God knew when I was going to be born, what kind of person I was going to become and whether I'm going to end up in heaven or hell millions of years before my birth, how does that give me free will if it's already predetermined?
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Old 10-31-2012, 05:29 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Tonganation
Huh, I've never heard that before, but the connection makes sense. Didn't Zoroastrianism inolve something like a conflict between light and darkness similar to the Manichaean beliefs?

Yes, in Zoroastrianism there is a god of goodness, 'Ahura Mazda', also known as the 'god of light' and there is a god of evil, 'Ahraman', also known as the 'god of darkness'.
These two gods are supposedly in a constant struggle with each other, each occasionaly gaining the upper hand, kinda like a see-saw, so Zoroastrian philosophy presents a simple explanation for the existence of both good and evil by attributing their origin to two different sources. Zoroaster himself taught that the forces of good and evil coexist in order to enable mankind to exercise his free will.

This same belief was evident in much of the 'Gnostic' beliefs, which also seem to have influenced Marcion strongly, infact, the word he used for 'God' was 'Demiurge', which was also what the Gnostics called him.

Think of it like this in terms of religious development.
Start with Canaan and it's polytheistic religion, add the Mesopotamian religion of the Sumerians and Babylonians and a monotheistic influence, possibly from Egyptian Atenism, and that gives us the basic blueprint for very early Judaism. (at this point, around 800 BC, Judaism still wasn't fully monotheistic, Yahweh was often considered as having a wife or consort, the Canaanite Mother Goddess known as 'Asherah')

Introduce this basic amalgamated concept to the Persians and it results in Zoroastrianism. Or possibly the other way around, Zoroastrianism may well have been an influence upon early Judaism, nobody is really certain which came first, Zoroastrianism enters recorded history in the mid-5th century BC in Herodotus' 'The Histories' but Herodotus considered it to have existed for quite a while by then. Put it this way, we can certainly say that they appear to have developed pretty much alongside each other and because of their similarities, we can also say that they probably influenced each other here and there along the way.

Later, back in Israel, (which used to be Canaan) add Hellanism (ancient Greek cultural influence introduced with the conquests of Alexander the Great) into the mix and you have Hellenistic Judaism (Paul the Apostle was said to be one of these)

Bring the whole lot together, including Zoroastrianism, and add the influence of Messianic Judaism (which first became popular during the 'Babylonian Captivity' around 587–538 BC ) and we pretty much arrive at pre-Christian Gnosticism. (John the Baptist was possibly one of these) Gnosticism would then go on to be greatly influenced by Christianity.

Marcion seems to stand in a place somewhere between Gnosticism and standard early Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonganation
I'm probably wrong, I don't know much about Zoroastrianism.
I've been reading Bart Ehrman's textbook on the New Testament and it didn't say anything about Zoroatrianism in relation to Marcion.

Bart Ehrman was an Evangelical Christian for a long time, (he now considers himself as an agnostic) he certainly knows his New Testament stuff very well, but I don't think he's done much research beyond Christianity.
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It did say Marcion wrote his own gospel based off of the Gospel of Luke

True, it's even been suggested that it's possible that the version of the Gospel of Luke that we know today was actualy based upon Marcion's gospel.
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and that he believed Paul was the true interpretor of Jesus.

Again, true.
Personaly I disgree with Marcion on this. When you consider that Paul never met Jesus and ended up in disagreement with those who knew Jesus personaly, including the brother of Jesus and first Bishop of Jerusalem, James the Just, it's hard to see how Paul could possibly be the true interpretor of Jesus.
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Old 10-31-2012, 07:05 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Jostry
My biggest question is, since God is an all powerful being that can do anything, and that nothing is impossible for him, why can't God just kill Satan RIGHT now? If he can do anything, why doesn't he just snap his fingers and bam, Satan dies.

Instead, he plans a certain date for the second coming of Jesus, which will then start a war between angels and demons, and God and Satan, and in the end God will kill Satan and everybody will be judged in the final judgement.

Why all that drama and war, if God could just do it by snapping his fingers? Why start a war if you know you're gonna win anyways?



For the easiest way to explain why all of that stuff is in the Bible, we have to look at the cultures that contributed to the compilation of the Bible, namely the Hebrew, Christian and Roman cultures, and what influenced their thinking.

Y'see, before monotheistic (belief in a single god) Judaism was developed by the Hebrews (which was later developed into Christianity) everyone was polytheistic (belief in many gods) in their beliefs, infact, in the early days of Christianity, most of the world still was polytheistic, Christianity started out as a Messianic denomination of Judaism within the Middle East and only started to spread throughout the rest of the world after the Roman Emperor 'Constantine the Great' adopted Christianity as the official religion of the Roman Empire in the early 300s AD.
It was under this Roman influence that the Christian Bible was compiled from several books written over a time spaning the previous thousand years, including the Hebrew Bible or 'Tanakh', otherwise known as the Old Testament, and newer books such as the Gospels that made up the New Testament.

But remember, monotheism was still a relatively new concept to most of the Roman Empire and polytheistic influences still existed. For example, when two nations went to war, the victors were often considered as the side that had the strongest gods and the Christian 'God' was still considered by many as just 'one more god', infact, it was during the battle that brought Constantine to power as the 'sole' Roman Emperor, (The Roman Empire was split at the time and had several Emperors at the same time) the 'Battle of Milvian Bridge', that Constantine himself was said to have converted to Christianity after seeing a vision of God and commanded his troops to adorn their shields with a Christian symbol, (known as the Chi-Rho) which he then claimed was responsible for his victory, although the triumphal arch that was erected to commemorate this victory was still decorated with polytheistic 'pagan' imagery.

So, with all this mish-mash of cultural influence in mind, it's hardly surprising that the Roman influenced compiling of the Christian Bible would include the Book of Revelation, which fortells of a 'battle' between the supernatural forces of good and evil. It's just indicative of the way that people thought back then.

It also explains why 'Roman' Catholics believe in 'patron saints'. In polytheistic thought, each place, profession or passtime had a 'patron' god, a deity that one would pray to in the hope that they would influence the positive outcome of their endeavours. Once Christian monotheism became widespread, these patron gods were replaced by patron saints, who were prayed to in the same respect but who in turn were believed to appeal to the monotheistic God on their behalf.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jostry
Also, why did God put us here on earth first, instead of creating us on heaven straightaway? And if God knows the past, present and future, doesn't that mean that we technically DON'T have free will? If God knew when I was going to be born, what kind of person I was going to become and whether I'm going to end up in heaven or hell millions of years before my birth, how does that give me free will if it's already predetermined?

Yeah, sounds like a paradox doesn't it.

The thing is, many Christians believe that God is so powerful that pradoxes don't affect him, don't ask me how this is reasoned because it's a complete mystery to me, infact, it generaly is to Christians too, who just tend to say things like, "It's God's plan, we're not meant to understand it."
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Last edited by SlackerBabbath : 10-31-2012 at 07:41 AM.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:54 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jostry
My biggest question is, since God is an all powerful being that can do anything, and that nothing is impossible for him, why can't God just kill Satan RIGHT now? If he can do anything, why doesn't he just snap his fingers and bam, Satan dies.

Instead, he plans a certain date for the second coming of Jesus, which will then start a war between angels and demons, and God and Satan, and in the end God will kill Satan and everybody will be judged in the final judgement.

Why all that drama and war, if God could just do it by snapping his fingers? Why start a war if you know you're gonna win anyways?


Well have you ever heard that the journey is more important than the eventual destination? If God just snapped his fingers and killed Satan, then we would fast forward to the ending. What would be the fun in that? So all these others things have to occur because they make the journey more pleasant and enjoyable.

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Old 11-04-2012, 11:00 PM   #166
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Yo pit. I'd love to hear your take on this.

So Satan appeared to Eve as a taking snake,

A talking animal is a mirical right?

If satan is capable of performing a miricle, then how do we know all miricals aren't just satan?

How do we know its not just satan "answering" "our Prayers"

That's just a thought i have. I would love to hear some people's thoughts about it.

Don't be a smart-ass.

this is the only post in the thread i've read but...

the serpent was not satan; the text simply says it's a serpent. as a matter of fact satan was on god's heavenly council in the old testament and was not antithetical to god at all.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:01 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by due 07
this is the only post in the thread i've read but...

the serpent was not satan; the text simply says it's a serpent. as a matter of fact satan was on god's heavenly council in the old testament and was not antithetical to god at all.

Hail satan
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Old 11-11-2012, 09:54 PM   #168
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Hail satan


Exactly what I have been talking about for a long time.

HAiL SATAN.

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