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Old 11-13-2012, 03:57 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by due 07
If you had a foreign, non-partisan group examine our politics, there would be no "left." Only a right and a further right.

Which is exactly how Europe views you lot.

We sometimes think there must be a time machine out in the Atlantic that keeps dragging you guys backwards.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:01 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by crazysam23_Atax
Prove it.

I've stated that neither side is better than the other, which is true. Things won't magically get better if "your guys" are able to get things done.

Looks like somebody beat me to it. Oh, and



Nope, but I am saying it's not the job of the government to make sure you get a job.

So Government should just let people fall into desolation if they can't find work?

How do they become a burden to other by being ignorant or idiotic? If they're too ignorant or idiotic to keep up with things, society will simply leave them behind.
History is filled with heaps of ignorant and idiotic people. Some of them are even mostly famous for such bad qualities. (Look up bad leaders in history. For example, Louis XVI's ignorance and idiocy on the true state of France during his reign cost him his royal head.)


Because idiots and the ignorant tend to be Conservatives (falsifiable fact), hence they by definition hold society back and become a burden.

That's the problem with authoritarian governments -- they decide whether you get to have certain freedoms. That's why most developed societies (and many developing societies as well) have opted for representative forms of government. Such representative governments protect freedoms for ALL, rather than deciding whether Guy1/Girl1 gets them and Guy2/Girl2 doesn't.

Representative democracy is the worst form of democracy. By far.

Does it really matter who is worse? I imagine several years down the line, politics will shift slightly and the other side will become a "well-oiled, bullshit-churning machine".

Of course it bloody matters, when there is everything at stake socially.


Did you know - cows are statistically more likely to kill you than sharks?
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:04 PM   #183
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Nope, but I am saying it's not the job of the government to make sure you get a job.


Herbert Hoover thought the same thing. That turned out wonderfully!

Anyway, the gov need not ensure the outcome of employment, but they do need to at least make sure the opportunity is there for qualified candidates. That is to say, policy should allow for social mobility and merit-based advancement. The way society is structured in the US as of now, accident of birth seems to be a greater determinant of future success than hard work.

And the US right wing (neoconservatives, GOP) is definitely worse than the US 'left-wing' (aka moderately Republican). They both suck, but it's painfully obvious which one is shittier and which one any sane person would rather deal with.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:12 PM   #184
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Did you know - cows are statistically more likely to kill you than sharks?


it doesn't matter magnus, they're both equally dangerous.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:23 PM   #185
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It's time to go off the cliff dammit. These Republicans need to have a cold bucket of water dumped on their heads and realize that the Tea Party and Grover Norquist don't run this country.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:25 PM   #186
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During the debates both candidates stated that the main purpose of government was the ensure the safety of its citizens. How job security, education, and health do not fall under this is strange.
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Old 11-13-2012, 12:58 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by magnus_maximus
Which is exactly how Europe views you lot.

We sometimes think there must be a time machine out in the Atlantic that keeps dragging you guys backwards.

And the rest of North America for that matter. Keeps us from progress in some areas as well.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:09 PM   #188
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During the debates both candidates stated that the main purpose of government was the ensure the safety of its citizens. How job security, education, and health do not fall under this is strange.



Mind blown.

No seriously though cut the military spending. Its insane and beyond comprehension.

I know its wikipedia but look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ry_expenditures


Thats nutz. 4.7% of the GDP? 41% of the worlds share? Over 700 BILLION? This cant possibly be true. Even if not 100% accurate the numbers are alarming. I feel someone should be rioting in the streets over this.

We have the largest military in a world where no one can truly conquer others and simple button presses often keep people in check.

We also have the most people in prisons and are prett shitty when it comes to that area in general as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarc...e_United_States
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:55 PM   #189
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you can't just cut the military budget. that would put a lot of people out of work. you have to do that shit gradually to make sure the people you're throwing out are finding jobs elsewhere.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:58 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Ninja#117
Thats nutz. 4.7% of the GDP? 41% of the worlds share? Over 700 BILLION? This cant possibly be true. Even if not 100% accurate the numbers are alarming. I feel someone should be rioting in the streets over this.
At first I thought, that's not so bad, as I read it as saying percentage of the national budget. Then I realized it said percentage of GDP

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Old 11-13-2012, 03:11 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Ninja#117
Mind blown.

No seriously though cut the military spending. Its insane and beyond comprehension.

I know its wikipedia but look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ry_expenditures


Thats nutz. 4.7% of the GDP? 41% of the worlds share? Over 700 BILLION? This cant possibly be true. Even if not 100% accurate the numbers are alarming. I feel someone should be rioting in the streets over this.

We have the largest military in a world where no one can truly conquer others and simple button presses often keep people in check.

We also have the most people in prisons and are prett shitty when it comes to that area in general as well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarc...e_United_States


it might be beyond comprehension if you're a moron. If you look at and dissect the budget and where the money goes, it makes sense and is commensurate with what is currently going on. It's also getting smaller as things change, which is the status quo for budgetary fluctuations during times of increased and decreased warfare.

Large portions of that budget go towards health care and healthcare services for service members and their families as well as veterans affairs, which takes care of prior service members.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:27 PM   #192
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it might be beyond comprehension if you're a moron. If you look at and dissect the budget and where the money goes, it makes sense and is commensurate with what is currently going on. It's also getting smaller as things change, which is the status quo for budgetary fluctuations during times of increased and decreased warfare.

Large portions of that budget go towards health care and healthcare services for service members and their families as well as veterans affairs, which takes care of prior service members.


You did nothing to refute what i posted. Just stated some vague assumptions.

Here have this too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...cal_Year _2012


The National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2012[1] is a United States federal law which besides other provisions specifies the budget and expenditures of the United States Department of Defense. The bill passed the U.S. House 283 to 136 votes[2] and was signed into United States law on December 31, 2011, by President Barack Obama.[3][4]

The Act authorizes $662 billion[5] in funding, among other things "for the defense of the United States and its interests abroad." In a signing statement, President Obama described the Act as addressing national security programs, Department of Defense health care costs, counter-terrorism within the U.S. and abroad, and military modernization.[6][7] The Act also imposes new economic sanctions against Iran (section 1045), commissions appraisals of the military capabilities of countries such as Iran, China, and Russia,[8] and refocuses the strategic goals of NATO towards "energy security."[9] The Act also increases pay and healthcare costs for military service members[10] and gives governors the ability to request the help of military reservists in the event of a hurricane, earthquake, flood, terrorist attack or other disaster.[11]

I bolded all the stuff thats clearly bullshit. They do increase pay AND healthcare costs for military service members though. Look at the first Wiki article about te spending.

The top 5 are all considered "World Powers" yet non have the percentage of GDP being spent and the actual bottom line spending is 4 times that of next closest China. Yes China who has a huge army and insane population themselves. Pretty big movers on the economic stage as well. Yet they spend a 4th of what we do.

Lets be real. The amount of money spent on the military isnt "necessary" and i can assure much of it could be cleaned up but there are those who profit from all this. If you really think that kinda spending is validated given the current economic situation america finds itself in then im not the only moron on this board.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:32 PM   #193
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I'll respond to this later when I'm not on my phone. It's too easy. You're incorrect and misinformed, and I'll show you why.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:01 PM   #194
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:04 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Ninja#117
Lets be real. The amount of money spent on the military isnt "necessary" and i can assure much of it could be cleaned up but there are those who profit from all this. If you really think that kinda spending is validated given the current economic situation america finds itself in then im not the only moron on this board.

Spending so much on war-mongering sounds pretty awful, I'll admit. Fortunately, any one of the 3+ million DoD employees, their families, or many millions of folks (around the world) engaged with the network of defense-related businesses and academic institutions could explain how it doesn't all go to missiles and fuel and flags.

Edit: For example, the impeccably timed poster below.

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Old 11-13-2012, 11:11 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Ninja#117
You did nothing to refute what i posted. Just stated some vague assumptions.


ALRIGHTY THEN, let's get into this. Keep in mind I've been slamming down a Four Loko, so bear with me.

First and foremost, the Fiscal Year 2013 Federal budget is much more relevant to actual spending, as it allocates funds and sets limits, than the NDAA which is a more broad document that deals with policies and procedures across a broad spectrum of changes.

With that being said, we can see here from the offical 2013 budget (http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/def...sets/budget.pdf) that the federal government has provided for $525.4 billion as the base Department of Defense budget. This number is down approximately 1% (or 5 billion dollars) from the previous year. From that base number, we can break it down further into the following components:

Military personnel: $135 billion
Operation and maintenance: $208 billion
Procurement: $98 billion
Research, development, test and evaluation: $69 billion
Military construction: $9 billion
Family housing: $1.5 billion
Revolving and management funds: $2 billion

Based on that particular breakdown, it can be further looked at and broken down. The "military personnel" bracket concerns all things related to paychecks, and also accounts for the health care system that covers about 10 million eligible beneficiaries.

"Family housing" covers just that, the on-base military housing that is lived in by certain service members and their family members. "Military construction" concerns all the construction and contract costs going on across the US military's many bases. If you've ever been on a military base, you'll know that there is ALWAYS construction going on... road improvement, building updating, more housing being added, etc. This allowance covers those construction costs. Hardly equivalent to fighting terrorists.

After the shakedown, the last components are the ones that really concern warfighting efforts; the R&D budgeting, the operation and maintenance budgeting (the soul of the money going towards the war efforts), and "procurement" which is basically money used to buy new things, such as replacing any damaged or lost vehicles across the military and buying new products.

Now:

Quote:

The top 5 are all considered "World Powers" yet non have the percentage of GDP being spent and the actual bottom line spending is 4 times that of next closest China. Yes China who has a huge army and insane population themselves. Pretty big movers on the economic stage as well. Yet they spend a 4th of what we do.

Lets be real. The amount of money spent on the military isnt "necessary" and i can assure much of it could be cleaned up but there are those who profit from all this. If you really think that kinda spending is validated given the current economic situation america finds itself in then im not the only moron on this board.


Come on now, use some common sense. No other country has the percentage of GDP being spent on their DoD (or equivalent) quite frankly and understandably because they do not have the commitment to the war that we have. No nation has anywhere near the involvement in the current engagements. Whether evaluated purely on a man-power basis, or on a vehicular basis, or on a dispersal of power basis, or whatever, we are the obviously most involved nation in the current engagement which is also the largest ongoing war in the world. This obviously equates to us having to spend more to maintain and develop the involvement that we already have. With that being said, the DoD portion of the budget is currently on a plan to cut about 480 billion over the next 10 years, because it is obvious that the war effort is winding down and will eventually stop. Because of this, we can predictably scale back the budget to produce one that is more appropriate to a peacetime or minimal-involvement military.

I don't think I have to explain this to you, but the budget is commensurate with national military involvement in warfare and engagements. Because our entire military is currently involved in a large and distant war, the budget for sustaining that effort will be equivalent to the intensity and commitment of the effort of the military. It is better to have a large defense budget that is supporting a nation's war efforts than for Congress/the President to declare war and send a massively underfunded military to fight that war.

My point is that if you want the defense budget to be less, then the only way to do that is to get rid of the war or to get rid of our involvement in the war. This is a valid critique and opinion which you are certainly likely to hold, HOWEVER, you cannot rationally evaluate the federal defense budget without realizing this fact and without understanding that a nation must necessarily increase a defense budget in order to properly fund its military. The budget is exactly where it needs to be to facilitate our government's goals in the current war and to support those involved in the war. Whenever there is going to be a military involved in a war, there will be a substantially increased defense budget. This is self-explanatory and inherently obvious.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:58 PM   #197
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Old 11-14-2012, 05:12 PM   #198
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Successful thread killing is successful


You're an efficient killing machine!!!
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Old 11-14-2012, 10:58 PM   #199
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:14 AM   #200
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America? Peacetime budget? What is the year, Dreadnaught, 1906?
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