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Old 11-12-2012, 10:07 PM   #21
HotspurJr
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The thing is, it probably wouldn't be that hard for him to learn the changes if he worked at them for a few days. It starts with counting. For measures of X, followed by five measures of Y, and so on.

But if he's USED to being intuitive about it, it'll take a little work. Not work that should be too hard for him to do, but he's going to have to put in a little time. I doubt it'll take long, but he should be eager to do this.

Because the reality is that not knowing where the changes are really limits him as a drummer. You'll notice when you listen to rock that the drummer often sets up the changes with a couple of leading beats. It's a major tool in any decent drummers arsenal. But of course he can't do this if he doesn't know the changes.

(Ringo Starr is actually really great at this - he's much maligned as a drummer, but listen to the way he has these beats which feel almost random until they retroactively make a ton of sense when the change happens - but pretty much all rock drummers do the double-hit right before the change, it's a dummer's cliche because it's works).

And the simple truth is, compared to most of what a drummer does, knowing where the changes are is easy. It's hard for me to imagine any reason other than sheer laziness that would explain why he hasn't figured this out yet.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:55 AM   #22
91RG350
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Originally Posted by King-For-A-Day
Hi guys
well we started on saturday with recording the guitars after out drummer couldn't play just to the metronome. ......

Nonono thats not what was suggested to you.

Get the guitarists to play along to a metronome (a click track that is audible in the final mix) and that is your scratch track for the drummer.

Im sure the guitarists will have no trouble keeping time.... they are guitarists after all.... known throughout the industry for their ability to play in ensembles....

The drum track should be recorded first using the abovementioned scratch track...and then everything recorded using the drums as the base....

Its amazing how many "the drummer sucks" threads pop up, and when you dig a little deeper you find that the drummer has been set up for failure by egomaniac guitarists with little thought for anyone except themselves.... not saying thats happening here, TS, I'm just venting.....
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Last edited by 91RG350 : 11-13-2012 at 02:59 AM. Reason: clarification of wording
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:33 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Vlaco
Alan- I'm not sure why you feel the need to attack my methods. You seem to believe that the arrangement is sacred and a song should be played the same way every time. Fine. I don't. Since they're my songs, if a chance to improve it comes along, it's going to change. That's also fine.


I'm not attacking, I'm stating the truth. The songs aren't finished, and there's a very real possibility that it will never be finished if you keep rewriting your songs.

I recall in one of my bands the singer kept rewriting and changing the songs. The band could never keep up because every week it was something different to the previous week. Parts that were written were removed, and new parts had to be written. A never ending cycle that resulted in not many gigs, as nobody ever could learn the songs.

But how could they learn the songs, they were never "finished". The writer lacked the ability to walk away. Even more so, the songs were arguably no better than they were in the first place. All that extra effort could have been put into new songs instead (just in case you ever encounter the "I'm growing as a musician" excuse).

So in terms of recording, before you do so you make sure the band is well practiced. If they don't know the songs like the back of their hand, they aren't well practiced and not ready to record. If the songs aren't written, they can't know the song.

And if you start learning the song in the studio, it's going to take a LOOOOONNNNGGG time, and with it a lot of money if you're recording professionally. With the end product, it's not going to be as good as if you had practiced, and in the off chance that somebody does like it, they're going to be disappointed when you play it live because you changed it, again.

As for the rest, nobody has to play with a metronome.

First rule of metronome, the studio is no place to learn how to play with a metronome. Do you play with it at home every day? No? Ok, forget the metronome.
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Old 11-13-2012, 10:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlanHB
First rule of metronome, the studio is no place to learn how to play with a metronome.


That's for sure.

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Originally Posted by AlanHB
Do you play with it at home every day? No? Ok, forget the metronome.


That's a little extreme. As long as someone can keep up with a metronome, then it could be a good idea to use them for the main scratch track.

If you're recording everyone seperately it will be very hard to have it all in synch if there's nothing keeping the time uniform. You can punch in phrases or portions of the song, but it would be a drag to have to punch in every note, word, or drum hit.

So unless you're recording everyone together, there has to be something to keep it rational. Recording with a click (even if the performer can't hear it) can be good because it can help you line up the tracks more accurately, and also with any puncing in you may need to do later to fix minor issues.

Guitar Pro can be a good substitute for those who aren't used to playing to a metronome; and it's easy to export as a wav file into your DAW--or you can just record it from an audio out into your mixer console (assuming it supports multi-track recording and has enough tracks).

GP is also a great writing tool, since you can "what if" all sorts of stuff without the band having to learn it.
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Old 11-13-2012, 11:37 PM   #25
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TS-Give the scratch track method a try.It is the only way I was ever able to do it.In a pro studio,the drummer is isolated,but can hear the other players with headphones.Essentialy playing live.All instruments are separated to avoid bleed through,but are recorded at the same time.You need to provide the drummer something to play to.He can't go by memory alone.A metronome will not show him where the changes are.Before you kick your drummer out,try doing the vocals,or bass first with a metronome.Let me know how that works out.
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Old 11-14-2012, 06:12 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by jetwash69
That's a little extreme. As long as someone can keep up with a metronome, then it could be a good idea to use them for the main scratch track.

If you're recording everyone seperately it will be very hard to have it all in synch if there's nothing keeping the time uniform. You can punch in phrases or portions of the song, but it would be a drag to have to punch in every note, word, or drum hit.
......


It's not "keeping up" with a metronome, it's "playing with". You can either play with the metronome or not. If you're falling behind/getting ahead, the metronome will not help for your punch-ins, it will just make the band sound "off".

To keep the time uniform, you use the scratch track. I'm hoping that your band can relatively keep time over the period of one song.
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Old 11-16-2012, 12:52 AM   #27
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A major problem I find with recording with bands is that the rhythm section in most cases are not used to leading the tempo and rhythm. Many Drummers are used to playing TO guitarists, speeding up and slowing down to compensate for the guitarists lack of natural time.

I was recently in the studio with a guitarist who insisted he would play the guitar parts first without a metronome because he had great timing and spent an hour laying down the parts to one section then trying to lay down the solo over it, complaining that it just "didnt fit" when really he was just all over the place with timing. I put a metronome on to help him keep time with the guitar parts, but he didnt play to the click, just sort of around it and he sped up and slowed down his playing relative to the changes I made to match his playing.

The moral of the story is, never use a lone guitarist as the time keeper for a recording, either have the drummer actually learn the song then lay it down to a click or record the band at once for a scratch track as previously said.
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Old 11-16-2012, 05:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by 91RG350
Im sure the guitarists will have no trouble keeping time.... they are guitarists after all.... known throughout the industry for their ability to play in ensembles....


Am I the only one to have picked up on the brilliant sarcasm here, or was it, perhaps, me who has missed the point?



Quote:
Originally Posted by celitus
I was recently in the studio with a guitarist who insisted he would play the guitar parts first without a metronome because he had great timing and spent an hour laying down the parts to one section then trying to lay down the solo over it, complaining that it just "didnt fit" when really he was just all over the place with timing. I put a metronome on to help him keep time with the guitar parts, but he didnt play to the click, just sort of around it and he sped up and slowed down his playing relative to the changes I made to match his playing.

The moral of the story is, never use a lone guitarist as the time keeper for a recording


This has been my experience more than once. What a f**king nightmare.

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Old 11-17-2012, 06:45 AM   #29
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hey guys,
first of all noo those guitar-tracks are not the final ones, we did them to try out recording them and to give the drummer a track to play to
Alright next day we'll do another try. I have a question, what do you think about cutting the drums? I mean to make a cut until the part where the drummer misses the point und then continue recording?
I think this could work good without getting everyone too much annoyed.
By the way the bassist from a neighbor band would like to try out triggering the drums that could sound much better than the original one.

So in a nutshell the plan is now:
Record the drums to the guitar-track
Record the bass to drums and guitar-track
Re-record the guirars
Mix it baby
The the voices

Good plan? What you said at last - yes that was our problem that there was no constrant timing of the drums but that's the problem if someone listens to it
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:04 AM   #30
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Yeah,record the drums a couple of times and mix it together.You will probably be doing this for all the instruments and especially the vocals.You'll want to mix,and bounce tracks as you go along to free up tracks.What that means is use as many tracks as you need to get the drums recorded,then mix them and put the finished product onto a single track.How many tracks do you have to work with on your recording device?Is it a 4-track,8-track,...?
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:48 AM   #31
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You don't need to record the drums in one take. Record it in parts. First record the verse drum beat for example. I do this all the time when I record at home (OK, it's not a professional record but still). First I record one riff on guitar and don't record anything else. Then I continue from where I stopped and record another riff. Then you don't need to be afraid of messing up and needing to record everything from the beginning.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:52 AM   #32
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oh thank you I think we're able to record the drums in parts.
I have lots of questions There's another one, maybe you know what to do, it's about the lead-guitar:
I would like to use my reverb etc. at some parts, no question to record solos seperately but my bandmate said he would add a reverb later with the editor-programm. I don't believe that the programm can simuliate the Reverb of the spring-reverb in my amp. But my bandmate said then it's impossible to edit the record
So now I'm thinking better no reverb than a super-digital one that maybe won't sound pretty good.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:42 AM   #33
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As a general rule, the effects such as reverb and what-not are generally of a higher quality as a plug-in or as a standalone studio processing unit than the ones that are in stomp boxes or built into guitar amps.

That said, it can be pretty much impossible to "dial in" a specific character. If you love the character of the reverb in your amp, best to use it, while keeping in mind that you won't be able to edit the reverb later. (though to be clear, you will absolutely be able to edit the guitar part itself...)

As far as editing drums - yeah, the pros do it all the time. Don't let people tell you that you can't punch in or splice drums.

CT
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Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:52 AM   #34
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awesome thank you for that answer
I didn't know that the processing effects were that good but it seems to be true,
so I'll write later like tomorrow how we managed the record

See you guys
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:44 PM   #35
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Alright, seems that we've found a way to record the drums in a good way
Our drummer plays along to the guitars as long as he can and we're rerecording now only from the preveous part when he hits the wrong key.
When we got some instrumental-tracks complete, I'll let you hear something as soon as possible.
Thank you for your advices!
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:51 PM   #36
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You're welcome. Glad it's working out!

CT
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Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

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Old 11-19-2012, 02:59 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by King-For-A-Day
...Alright, seems that we've found a way to record the drums in a good way
Our drummer plays along to the guitars....


My left eye is twitching uncontrollably for some reason....

I'm sure you meant the guitars play along to the drums...

But am happy to hear things are working out

Side-thought- I would suggest that if the band cant play the song through perfectly in two or three takes max then the band doesnt know the song...

Quote:
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Am I the only one to have picked up on the brilliant sarcasm here, or was it, perhaps, me who has missed the point?

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