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Old 03-15-2013, 01:47 PM   #21
Life Is Brutal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
I've never seen that anywhere...

V 6/4 is very different from I 6/4 and would actually break the dominant pedal since it would go to the relative 2nd degree of key instead staying on 5.


No, it stays on 5, V 6/4 is just saying the suspensions over it, like;

6 - 5
4 - 3

The 6/4 is to notate suspension markings rather than inversion.

But, it sounds virtually the same as a I 6/4 (2nd inversion) moving to a V 5/3 (Root position).

How did you go about learning this, and what do you call a Cadential 6/4?
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Old 03-15-2013, 03:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
I've never seen that anywhere...

V 6/4 is very different from I 6/4 and would actually break the dominant pedal since it would go to the relative 2nd degree of key instead staying on 5.

What you'll sometimes see notated in an analysis if there's roman numerals + figured bass is something like:
Code:
C6 7 4 V_________I


Which is actually denoting a C6/4 to V to I, but I guess because the C6/4 is really a dominant chord in a way you just indicated the V being extended.

That's how I notated it in my theory courses.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:18 PM   #23
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I can see how it could be framed that way, but if we take into account consistency, it starts to not make much sense.

If I understand this correctly, you're basing the roman numeral on the bass tone, regardless of harmonic context/function. So what's gonna happen when you have something like a D7 in 1st inversion as a dominant to V in C? The bass tone is F#. There is no roman numeral for that. And furthermore, it obscures the true place of harmonies. A vi becomes I 6/3? etc...
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:25 PM   #24
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Not at all. The roman numeral isn't there because of the bass note, it's denoting function because the C6/4 chord can be interpreted as a decoration/extension of a dominant chord.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:28 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
Not at all. The roman numeral isn't there because of the bass note, it's denoting function because the C6/4 chord can be interpreted as a decoration/extension of a dominant chord.

Right, but that doesn't solve the consistency issue. If this is V 6/4, then what is G 6/4 (D G B)?
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:37 PM   #26
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The 64 refers to figured bass symbols and the V refers to the dominant function. Meaning, the 64 refers to a sixth (E) and a fourth (C) above the 'root', which is G. You have to remember figured bass was around in a time before chords as we know them existed; a chord spelled G E C (from bottom to top) was, in fact, a 'G' chord - not a 'C' chord.

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Old 03-15-2013, 05:38 PM   #27
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That's what the C in C6/4 is for. It means that it's a cadential 6/4 which everyone understands to mean I6/4 resolving onto a V chord. You wouldn't ever see that notation outside of the context of a cadence so the issue doesn't come up at all.

It's inconsistent because the C6/4 is an inconsistent harmonic device. It's a I chord that doesn't function as a I chord, it functions as a V chord.

It's just for analysis purposes anyway. If you don't like it, don't use it.
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Old 03-15-2013, 05:51 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timeconsumer09
The 64 refers to figured bass symbols and the V refers to the dominant function. Meaning, the 64 refers to a sixth (E) and a fourth (C) above the 'root', which is G. You have to remember figured bass was around in a time before chords as we know them existed; a chord spelled G E C (from bottom to top) was, in fact, a 'G' chord - not a 'C' chord.

Yes, but the original figured bass didn't include roman analysis at all. It only had numbers to indicate intervals above the bass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
That's what the C in C6/4 is for. It means that it's a cadential 6/4 which everyone understands to mean I6/4 resolving onto a V chord. You wouldn't ever see that notation outside of the context of a cadence so the issue doesn't come up at all.
I guess I've just never seen explicitly labeled "C 6/4" in addition to noting "V" I The whole purpose of the roman numerals is so that they can apply abstractly to every key without needing to specify C, D, etc

Quote:
It's inconsistent because the C6/4 is an inconsistent harmonic device. It's a I chord that doesn't function as a I chord, it functions as a V chord.
But it doesn't necessarily have to serve as a dominant suspension/delay. It could be a passing tone to something else.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:08 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
I guess I've just never seen explicitly labeled "C 6/4" in addition to noting "V" I The whole purpose of the roman numerals is so that they can apply abstractly to every key without needing to specify C, D, etc

But how does this defeat that purpose? You can still abstractly understand V(C6/4 - 5/3) I in any key.

Oh wait I think I see the confusion (pun)... The C in C6/4 stands for 'cadential' not the note 'C'. So regardless of what key you're in you'd still say V(C6/4).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
But it doesn't necessarily have to serve as a dominant suspension/delay. It could be a passing tone to something else.

True, but this is just notating a (very common) special case in which you have a second inversion I chord resolving to a V chord. If the I6/4 was doing something else, you'd just call it a I6/4, not specifically a C6/4.
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Old 03-15-2013, 06:25 PM   #30
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Ohh ok, yea I've never seen "C6/4". But that makes sense.
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Old 03-15-2013, 08:26 PM   #31
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I think it has a lot to do with the particular school of thought one comes from. I have seen a C6/4 analyzed as such and I've also seen it thought of as a suspension. Either way works I suppose. I've also seem analyses that take a step back and label massive sections as V and thing of the C6/4 as simply an ornament. It's a very Schenkerian approach, but, I suppose it that works best for you then that's okay.
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Old 03-15-2013, 09:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz_rock_feel
Nitpicking. A C6/4 is a I6/4, but a I6/4 doesn't necessarily have to be a C6/4 (although they are a large percentage of the time).



Semantics - depends on where you learned your theory. The reasoning behind calling in C6/4 or V6-5/4-3 (double sus on the V) is strictly to distinguish it from a functional I chord, since the idea of a "dominant I" even more confusing.

Most of the time, inversion symbols indicate nothing more than which note is in the bass given a root, but on occasion it's meant to convey the actual intervals above the bass without indicating a root. That's how a V 6/4 can mean "a chord built on the 5th scale degree with intervals of a 4th and 6th above", rather than "a V chord in 2nd inversion".
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