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View Poll Results: The Pit's generally...
...Intelligent 67 30.18%
...Average 93 41.89%
...Stupid 44 19.82%
Dunno 18 8.11%
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:44 AM   #181
AndyZ
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The Pit is full of arrogance. Also lots of whiners and people who pretend to be great thinkers/philosophers.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:47 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
There's no reason why a person with a low general IQ can't have a talent for technical mathematics, ever heard of a 'savant'?

This isn't true at all.

Splinter skills occur almost exclusively in autistic patients, which leaves a huge amount of problems that would inhibit the completion of a degree. Granted, the fact that most 'savants' are high-functioning autistics would mean that they have a better chance than someone with a splinter skill occurring with ordinary autism, but you seem to be implying that an autistic patient with a global IQ typical of an autistic patient could be carried through university on the back of a splinter skill.

This simply isn't the case. Global IQ IS indicative of one's ability to do something like completing a university degree. We could argue about the direction of the relationship between those two things, but that conversation wouldn't even apply here.

There is every reason why a person with a low IQ, savant or not, would struggle to complete a university degree.
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:56 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by instagata0
This isn't true at all.

Splinter skills occur almost exclusively in autistic patients, which leaves a huge amount of problems that would inhibit the completion of a degree.

But I didn't say that a savant could 'complete a degree', I just said that a savant can 'have a talent for technical mathematics'.

The point I'm making is that savants have 'talents' in certain fields because they happen to think about those fields in ways that make it easy for them to understand. More often than not, it's nothing to do with what someone else has taught them but rather something that they have figured out for themselves, meaning that they are likely to learned the subject that they have a talent for in the 'standard' way.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:10 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
But I didn't say that a savant could 'complete a degree', I just said that a savant can 'have a talent for technical mathematics'.

The point I'm making is that savants have 'talents' in certain fields because they happen to think about those fields in ways that make it easy for them to understand. More often than not, it's nothing to do with what someone else has taught them but rather something that they have figured out for themselves, meaning that they are likely to have not been taught the subject that they have a talent for in the 'standard' way.

That's true, but it's stretching the concept a bit, given the deficits that come along with your example.

I'm actually on your side of the argument (that environmental enabling allows someone to reach their potential, rather than exhibited potential being an innate trait), but the kind of variability that you're talking about when it comes to teaching people to excel in particular areas of intelligence more often than not come with other problems. For the most part, a generally 'good' environment is better for intelligence than figuring out how to flip a switch on individual concepts to make them work for people.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:15 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by instagata0
That's true, but it's stretching the concept a bit, given the deficits that come along with your example.

I'm actually on your side of the argument (that environmental enabling allows someone to reach their potential, rather than exhibited potential being an innate trait), but the kind of variability that you're talking about when it comes to teaching people to excel in particular areas of intelligence more often than not come with other problems. For the most part, a generally 'good' environment is better for intelligence than figuring out how to flip a switch on individual concepts to make them work for people.


Oh I agree entirely, I'm just trying to make the point that 'talent' isn't necessarily something that people are born with.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:21 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
Oh I agree entirely, I'm just trying to make the point that 'talent' isn't necessarily something that people are born with.

I misunderstood entirely. My apologies. I thought you were arguing the opposite.

The reason why I was under that impression is that there are distinct neurophysiological differences between savants and other people, meaning that in those special cases, they kind of are born with it, along with a host of other problems.

But I do agree that talent is nurtured, not determined.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:26 AM   #187
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Bah, its subjective.

Some people only respond to threads that they have some knowledge about such as sports or religion, etc... because they know what they are talking about in that subject.

Then you see them in other threads floundering to make a point about something that isn't in their knowledge-base.

Its like when I enter a physics thread. I don't even dare make comment because I don't know my ass from my elbow. But don't get me started in a thread where I know what i'm talking about, then I can look like Albert Einstein, with a little help from Wiki of course .

We are all knowledgable to some extent in our areas of interest or natural aptitudes. But none of us know it all. With that said, there are definately some very intelligent people in here and some complete idiots depending on the subject.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:29 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by instagata0
I misunderstood entirely. My apologies. I thought you were arguing the opposite.

No problem bud.
Quote:
Originally Posted by instagata0
The reason why I was under that impression is that there are distinct neurophysiological differences between savants and other people, meaning that in those special cases, they kind of are born with it, along with a host of other problems.

But I do agree that talent is nurtured, not determined.


Yeah, I was only using savants as an example of people using different ways of thinking about the same problems. Savants, to me, obviously think about their chosen field of expertise (for want of a better phrase) in a different way than a standard expert of that particular field, but they both still become 'experts' in the end regardless.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:35 AM   #189
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A little above average, I'd say.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:17 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerBabbath
Depends what you mean by 'intellectual potential' really. Are there really people who are naturaly intelligent or is it more down to how and what they are taught? It's a nature 'v' nurture thing.

Take art for example, there are so many people who claim that you need natural talent in order to be a competant artist, but personaly I consider that to be complete bullshit, practicaly anyone can paint pictures to quite a high standard, all they need is to be taught the techniques in a way that they understand. To me, it's exactly the same thing as reading and writing, we don't consider that people need to be naturaly talented in order to be able to read and write, practicaly everyone can read and write in today's world, they just need to be taught how to do it.

I think intelligence can be similar, I think that it's not particularly what you start off with, although that is important to a certain extent, it's more about what you do with it that defines how intelligent you become. To me, intelligence is mainly about the nurture.

I also think that the point where nature comes into it is to do with the way that a person needs to be taught in order to reach their true intelligence potential. In that respect, everyone varies. One teaching technique will work great for one pupil but not for another. But that doesn't make one pupil more intelligent than the other, they could probably both reach the same potential if their personaly ideal way of being taught can be found.

Well, I did read a thing in a paper last week which claimed parental attitudes were more important than the quality of the school to a child's educational attainment(at school level) - effectively, a pupil at a shite school whose parent(s) do stuff like help them with homework, attend school events like parent's evenings and the like, will be likely to outperform a child at a good school whose parent(s) take little interest.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:42 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Well, I did read a thing in a paper last week which claimed parental attitudes were more important than the quality of the school to a child's educational attainment(at school level) - effectively, a pupil at a shite school whose parent(s) do stuff like help them with homework, attend school events like parent's evenings and the like, will be likely to outperform a child at a good school whose parent(s) take little interest.

That makes sense, a neglected child who attends a good school is still a neglected child with all the negative effects that neglect brings with it.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:12 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by Neo Evil11
no matter whar you do, you can't teach me to make a decent painting man. Whereas I think that someone of a lower intelligence will not so easily do better than me in school. Certainly nurture is very important, but nature defines how easy you learn and your maximum potential. But this debate hasnt been settled and we can't do that here either lol.

best metaphor I've ever heard was intelligence described as a rubber band. You can stretch it to its limit but it will go no further, and without stretching it's limp and shitty.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:32 AM   #193
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To much pseudo intellectualism to really judge and people argue and debate about stupid topics too much, no one agree's to disagree, most debates turn into a shit throwing contest etc... Besides that though, id say this is one of the smarter boards ive been on. I go on the bodybuilding.com forums quite a bit, and the Misc makes eveyone on here seem like einsten comparatively.
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