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Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM   #5401
necrosis1193
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So the Orioles traded for an outfielder guy I've never heard of because he's a Brewer and nobody outside of Wisconsin actually follows the Brewers. Who is he, why should I care, and why did we do that instead of bringing Dariel Álvarez up?
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Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM   #5402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
So the Orioles traded for an outfielder guy I've never heard of because he's a Brewer and nobody outside of Wisconsin actually follows the Brewers. Who is he, why should I care, and why did we do that instead of bringing Dariel Álvarez up?

Parra? He's been great this year offensively. 140 wRC+. His defensive numbers this year have been bad, but just two years ago he was elite defensively
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Old Yesterday, 04:44 PM   #5403
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Originally Posted by TheChaz at #33526543
Parra? He's been great this year offensively. 140 wRC+. His defensive numbers this year have been bad, but just two years ago he was elite defensively


Sweet, I can live with that. Especially since we just traded for another one apparently.

On that note, Tommy Hunter is finally gone and I am happy.
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Old Yesterday, 05:55 PM   #5404
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Whaaaat cespedes got traded to the Mets
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Old Yesterday, 07:16 PM   #5405
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Originally Posted by necrosis1193
Don't worry, as long as jim johnson is closing for them, they'll have no shot at a ring.
Jim Johnson has been really good this year.

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Originally Posted by TheChaz
Marlins came out of it much worse.

Got three low ranked pitching prospects in exchange for salary relief and their comp pick.

Dodgers fleeced both teams though.
I wasn't too familiar with some of the pieces in this deal, so I just read MLBTradeRumors' write up and...goddamn did the Dodgers win this one. The Braves haul is actually pretty good, but they gave up a lot. I don't know what the hell the Marlins were thinking though.

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Originally Posted by TheChaz
Something that seems strange to me is how many teams are buying. The Rangers aren't in contention, yet they got Hamels for next year. The Blue Jays were a .500 team, and they got Price AND Tulo. The White Sox are buyers and they've been abysmal all season. One 7 game streak and they think they're contenders even though they're under .500. Tigers are the only team being reasonable with their current standing.
I think you're underestimating the AL Wild Card race. Detroit is only 3.5 out of the 2nd Wild Card (4.5 out of the 1st Wild Card) and as it stands right now the 2nd Wild Card team is the Twins, so with them being divisional opponents the Tigers are still in it. The Rangers are also only 4 games back of the 2nd Wild Card. Jays are a .500 team that are 2 games back of the Wild Card, and with the moves they made they could make a serious push for the playoffs. The White Sox ultimately didn't do anything, but they're only 3.5 games back of the 2nd Wild Card.

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Originally Posted by TheChaz
Also, that whole Gomez/Wheeler/Flores trade left the Mets looking very bad
Why? The media broke the news before the trade was completed, Mets apparently backed out due to medical concerns. Some people are saying the Mets backed out for financial reasons, but they asked for additional compensation in a deal that would give Milwaukee a potential top of the rotation pitcher and a serviceable infielder. I would have done the deal straight up, but I don't think it was an unreasonable request. If it's about Terry Collins leaving Flores in while he was in tears, maybe Flores asked to go out there? He's been with the team since he was 16 (now 22), after all.

I really like the Cespedes trade. In all likelyhood it's a rental for the rest of this year, but the Mets desperately needed a bat and they got one. They gave up two pitching prospects but honestly, they're expendable given all the young promising arms in the rotation right now.
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Old Yesterday, 07:44 PM   #5406
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damn nobody wanted to take Cholesterol Charles Sabathia off our hands? Fkn sick of that bum.
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Old Yesterday, 08:32 PM   #5407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainDamage
I wasn't too familiar with some of the pieces in this deal, so I just read MLBTradeRumors' write up and...goddamn did the Dodgers win this one. The Braves haul is actually pretty good, but they gave up a lot. I don't know what the hell the Marlins were thinking though.

No one knows what the hell the Marlins are thinking. That's their theme.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainDamage
I think you're underestimating the AL Wild Card race. Detroit is only 3.5 out of the 2nd Wild Card (4.5 out of the 1st Wild Card) and as it stands right now the 2nd Wild Card team is the Twins, so with them being divisional opponents the Tigers are still in it. The Rangers are also only 4 games back of the 2nd Wild Card. Jays are a .500 team that are 2 games back of the Wild Card, and with the moves they made they could make a serious push for the playoffs. The White Sox ultimately didn't do anything, but they're only 3.5 games back of the 2nd Wild Card.

Detroit was a seller with the same record as the White Sox and in the same division. I think the next few weeks will create a lot of separation in the AL WC race and the teams that didn't sell will end up looking a little foolish.
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Originally Posted by BrainDamage
Why? The media broke the news before it was completed, Mets apparently backed out due to medical concerns. Some people are saying the Mets backed out for financial reasons, but they asked for additional compensation in a deal that would give Milwaukee a potential top of the rotation pitcher and a serviceable infielder. I would have done the deal straight up, but I don't think it was an unreasonable request. If it's about Terry Collins leaving Flores in while he was in tears, maybe Flores asked to go out there? He's been with the team since he was 16 (now 22), after all.

IMO, they look bad because:
1) They left Flores out on the field when the deal was apparently still on and the dude was crying on the middle of the field. If he asked to go out there, sure, but that's just speculation.
2) Gomez was traded the next day. Not to say there's absolutely nothing medically wrong with him, but it just gives more credit to the idea that...
3) It broke down over the money/comp pick that NY wanted. Just going on the info provided, that was still unresolved when the deal was called off.
4) The Mets are a big market team with a small payroll. The idea that there's any hangup based on the salary of a player like Gomez who is on a team friendly deal, makes the team look cheap.

Just my opinion
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Old Yesterday, 09:10 PM   #5408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChaz
IMO, they look bad because:
1) They left Flores out on the field when the deal was apparently still on and the dude was crying on the middle of the field. If he asked to go out there, sure, but that's just speculation.
2) Gomez was traded the next day. Not to say there's absolutely nothing medically wrong with him, but it just gives more credit to the idea that...
3) It broke down over the money/comp pick that NY wanted. Just going on the info provided, that was still unresolved when the deal was called off.
4) The Mets are a big market team with a small payroll. The idea that there's any hangup based on the salary of a player like Gomez who is on a team friendly deal, makes the team look cheap.

Just my opinion
1. Deal wasn't done though, the media broke it early. I looked into this some more and apparently Flores heard about it but Collins wasn't told he was traded so why should he take him out?
2. Not much else to say about this since we don't know what the Mets' staff knows/what they were thinking about his medical history and potential current issues.
3 & 4. Why is that a problem though? Again, the Mets would have been giving up an MLB ready potential top of the rotation guy and an average infielder, both under contract through the 2019 season for an average outfielder who will be a free agent after next season. I think it was reasonable to ask for a little more and when Milwaukee wasn't willing to kick in something extra the Mets thought they could do better, and they went out and did just that. I get that his contract is only $3 million left this year and $9 million next year, but they decided against it and went out and got a much better bat at a cheaper price for prospects that were expendable while keeping next year's pitching rotation intact. But LOLMets, they wouldn't spend $12 million dollars, right? Maybe they put the $12 million they saved towards a bat in the offseason.
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Old Yesterday, 09:14 PM   #5409
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Originally Posted by BrainDamage at #33526881
Jim Johnson has been really good this year.


Jim Johnson postseason stats: In five games, he gave up six runs, two home runs, and had an era of 8.44. In three of those games he had an ERA over ten, and in one of them it was nearly 30. Opposing batters hit .300. Jim Johnson is occasionally acceptable in the regular season, but he's lifeless come playoffs.
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Old Yesterday, 09:17 PM   #5410
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Time to trade all our good players for prospects! Bout that time to intentionally tank! Bye bye best reliever in his prime, and 2nd best starter.
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Old Yesterday, 09:31 PM   #5411
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love how the trade deadline is the most coverage baseball gets all year. including the playoffs
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Old Yesterday, 09:31 PM   #5412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
Jim Johnson postseason stats: In five games, he gave up six runs, two home runs, and had an era of 8.44. In three of those games he had an ERA over ten, and in one of them it was nearly 30. Opposing batters hit .300. Jim Johnson is occasionally acceptable in the regular season, but he's lifeless come playoffs.
Such is life as a reliever (unless your talking about Mariano Rivera), bad numbers blown way out of proportion by incredibly small sample sizes. He's thrown a whopping 5.1 IP in the playoffs, all in 2012. Outside of game 1 of the ALDS he threw 5 IP, 1 R, 3 H, 1 BB, 3 K.
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Old Yesterday, 09:58 PM   #5413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainDamage
1. Deal wasn't done though, the media broke it early. I looked into this some more and apparently Flores heard about it but Collins wasn't told he was traded so why should he take him out?
2. Not much else to say about this since we don't know what the Mets' staff knows/what they were thinking about his medical history and potential current issues.
3 & 4. Why is that a problem though? Again, the Mets would have been giving up an MLB ready potential top of the rotation guy and an average infielder, both under contract through the 2019 season for an average outfielder who will be a free agent after next season. I think it was reasonable to ask for a little more and when Milwaukee wasn't willing to kick in something extra the Mets thought they could do better, and they went out and did just that. I get that his contract is only $3 million left this year and $9 million next year, but they decided against it and went out and got a much better bat at a cheaper price for prospects that were expendable while keeping next year's pitching rotation intact. But LOLMets, they wouldn't spend $12 million dollars, right? Maybe they put the $12 million they saved towards a bat in the offseason.

1. The media's job is to break the news early. If somehow a player knows that they are part of a trade, the fans all know the player is part of a trade, but the manager doesn't, that's a pretty bad breakdown in communication.
2. True, we don't. Another medical staff examined him and said "no problem" though.
3. I don't think Wheeler is a top of the rotation starter. Plus he's out for a good while after this. Wilmer Flores is not an average infielder. The one year the Mets have been contending for a while and they aren't willing to spend a couple extra million to do so makes the organization look cheap and unwilling to do what it takes to win.

Again, just my opinion. I know you'll disagree as a Met's fan, so there's really no reason to continue the discussion.
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Old Yesterday, 10:35 PM   #5414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChaz
1. The media's job is to break the news early. If somehow a player knows that they are part of a trade, the fans all know the player is part of a trade, but the manager doesn't, that's a pretty bad breakdown in communication.

the trade never happened. there was no trade. there was nothing for the manager to know
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Old Yesterday, 10:42 PM   #5415
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Originally Posted by BrainDamage at #33527063
Such is life as a reliever (unless your talking about Mariano Rivera), bad numbers blown way out of proportion by incredibly small sample sizes. He's thrown a whopping 5.1 IP in the playoffs, all in 2012. Outside of game 1 of the ALDS he threw 5 IP, 1 R, 3 H, 1 BB, 3 K.


The problem is that he followed up with a season where had an ERA just shy of 3(2.94), an opposing batter average of .275, and he blew more saves than anyone else in baseball that year. He was not good, and looking at his career numbers, that's the norm, not the aberration.

He's not a bum, but the guy's not a very good closer. He's good enough to get the job and get paid, but not good enough that you can ever be comfortable with him on the mound, even with a big lead. There's a reason that, Dodgers included, he's been on five teams in three years.
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Old Yesterday, 10:42 PM   #5416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChaz
1. The media's job is to break the news early. If somehow a player knows that they are part of a trade, the fans all know the player is part of a trade, but the manager doesn't, that's a pretty bad breakdown in communication.
2. True, we don't. Another medical staff examined him and said "no problem" though.
3. I don't think Wheeler is a top of the rotation starter. Plus he's out for a good while after this. Wilmer Flores is not an average infielder. The one year the Mets have been contending for a while and they aren't willing to spend a couple extra million to do so makes the organization look cheap and unwilling to do what it takes to win.

Again, just my opinion. I know you'll disagree as a Met's fan, so there's really no reason to continue the discussion.
1. I don't think it's a breakdown in communication...the deal wasn't done. Collins said in his postgame interview no one from the front office had confirmed a trade was happening, so there was no reason to pull him.
3. He has the potential to be. He's young, his stuff is absolutely filthy, and has a career 3.50 ERA in 285.1 IP. Needs to get his control down, but Sandy Koufax had a BB/9 of 4.8 in his first 947.1 IP and he turned out to be pretty good. Flores has an fWAR of 1.0 so far, in what will be his first full season. Put up 1.3 in 78 games last year. Fangraphs calls about 2 WAR an average position player. He'll probably end up slightly below that this year, but there's little difference between a player worth 2 WAR and one worth 1.6 WAR. He's also young, will be 24 in 6 days (my mistake from earlier, I was looking at his age when he debuted, which was 22).

And again back to the money side of things, you say they weren't willing to spend the money to get Gomez but they were also in talks with the Reds for Jay Bruce, who is due whatever is left on the $12 million for this year, $12.5 million next year, and a $13 million team option for 2017. Apparently that deal was being discussed for a week before it fell through. The money is irrelevant though, they saw something they didn't like in the deal for Gomez (regardless of whether it was medical or financial) and immediately went after other players. Doing so ended up in a much better player for less money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
The problem is that he followed up with a season where had an ERA just shy of 3(2.94), an opposing batter average of .275, and he blew more saves than anyone else in baseball that year. He was not good, and looking at his career numbers, that's the norm, not the aberration.

He's not a bum, but the guy's not a very good closer. He's good enough to get the job and get paid, but not good enough that you can ever be comfortable with him on the mound, even with a big lead. There's a reason that, Dodgers included, he's been on five teams in three years.
In what world is a 2.94 ERA not good? He blew 9 saves in 2013...in 59 opportunities. If you look at his game logs that year he gave up runs in 16 of the 74 games he pitched in. If you take away the two games all year where he got blown up (5 ER in 0.1 IP on 5/18 and 4 ER in 0.2 IP on 5/26) he gave up 14 ER in 69.1 IP. I'd take a full bullpen of those numbers in a heartbeat.

And yes, he shit the bed real bad last year, but it looks like he's back on track this year. Relievers are very, very volatile and a couple bad outings can ruin their numbers.
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Old Yesterday, 11:37 PM   #5417
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Originally Posted by BrainDamage at #33527174
In what world is a 2.94 ERA not good?


A world where an ERA of 1.8-2.6 is the what most top-half players post. Of all closers in 2013 who had 30+ saves, 12 out of 19 had an ERA under 2.7, and ten had ERAs under 2.6. Johnson was the only one in the top five in saves who had an ERA above 2.2. Three of those top five had a sub-2 ERA, and the one other top-five closer who wasn't under 2 was 2.11. The margin for error is much smaller for closers, because if he's not a shut-down guy who can post a zero on virtually every occasion, then why is he any better than any other reliever in your bullpen? Why do you take out the setup guy for him?

Quote:
He blew 9 saves in 2013...in 59 opportunities.


1. The Orioles had the MLB's 5th-highest scoring offense, and led in homers by almost thirty. No small part of that is run support. It's easy to make a save when you have the three run maximum in almost every opportunity.
2. That equates to a save percentage of 84.7%. That was 23rd amongst closers that year. If we give Jim Johnson a save percentage averaged from the other top-five closers that year(91.6%), the Orioles would've had an extra four wins. Are you honestly going to tell me that you would be happy if you had the 23rd-best shortstop out of 30, or the 23rd-best catcher out of 30? If you're in the bottom half of the league at your position, you're not good at it.

Quote:
And yes, he shit the bed real bad last year, but it looks like he's back on track this year. Relievers are very, very volatile and a couple bad outings can ruin their numbers.


It's not just statistics. I watched every Orioles game in 2012 and 2013, he didn't pass the eye test for the end of 2012, the 2012 postseason, or any of 2013. He looked scared on the mound, and he never seemed to make his pitches. His location was erratic, his changeup never seemed under control after around mid-August of 2012, he was predictable and easy to read, and far too often he was bailed out by a defense that had four gold glovers and a platinum glover instead of making his pitches. It's not just numbers that make me look down on him, it's a large sample size watching his performance practically nightly for multiple years.

I'll believe he's back on-track when I see it. The only time I saw him so far in 2015, he blew the save, so I'm not buying it yet.
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Old Today, 12:45 AM   #5418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
A world where an ERA of 1.8-2.6 is the what most top-half players post. Of all closers in 2013 who had 30+ saves, 12 out of 19 had an ERA under 2.7, and ten had ERAs under 2.6. Johnson was the only one in the top five in saves who had an ERA above 2.2. Three of those top five had a sub-2 ERA, and the one other top-five closer who wasn't under 2 was 2.11. The margin for error is much smaller for closers, because if he's not a shut-down guy who can post a zero on virtually every occasion, then why is he any better than any other reliever in your bullpen? Why do you take out the setup guy for him?
Take out the two appearances I mentioned and his ERA drops to 1.82.

Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
1. The Orioles had the MLB's 5th-highest scoring offense, and led in homers by almost thirty. No small part of that is run support. It's easy to make a save when you have the three run maximum in almost every opportunity.
Johnson appeared in 6 more games with a 1-run lead than Craig Kimbrel that year (who had an absolutely crazy year statistically). He entered a game with runners on base 7 times to Kimbrel's 3. He didn't have a three run cushion in every appearance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
2. That equates to a save percentage of 84.7%. That was 23rd amongst closers that year. If we give Jim Johnson a save percentage averaged from the other top-five closers that year(91.6%), the Orioles would've had an extra four wins. Are you honestly going to tell me that you would be happy if you had the 23rd-best shortstop out of 30, or the 23rd-best catcher out of 30? If you're in the bottom half of the league at your position, you're not good at it.
All I'm saying is that I look at Johnson's game numbers in 2013 and I see zeros in a large majority of his appearances. Was he the best closer in the league? Absolutely not, but to say that he did not have a good year is crazy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
It's not just statistics. I watched every Orioles game in 2012 and 2013, he didn't pass the eye test for the end of 2012, the 2012 postseason, or any of 2013. He looked scared on the mound, and he never seemed to make his pitches. His location was erratic, his changeup never seemed under control after around mid-August of 2012, he was predictable and easy to read, and far too often he was bailed out by a defense that had four gold glovers and a platinum glover instead of making his pitches. It's not just numbers that make me look down on him, it's a large sample size watching his performance practically nightly for multiple years.
He had almost exactly the same total strike percentage and looking strike percentage as Craig Kimbrel, who was arguably the best closer that year. You call out the Orioles' gold glove defense, but his BABIP was up at .327 (Kimbrel's was at .263) which suggests that the defense behind him may not have been as great as you think in his appearances and/or he was unlucky. His K% and BB% were in line with his career numbers, and although his K% was not at the obscene level Kimbrel's was at that year, his BB% was excellent. His stats suffered from him being an extreme groundball pitcher, luck (or lack thereof), and the defense behind him. Again, not saying he was the best relief pitcher in the league, but to call 2013 a bad season for Johnson just doesn't make sense.
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