Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > UG Community > Archives Of The Best Threads > Music Theory Archives
User Name  
Password
Search:

 
Old 04-11-2005, 09:36 PM   #1121
Corwinoid
UG Monkey
 
Corwinoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: I am Ra. You are perceptive.
^ It would have been the same as asking what [major] key is relative to A minor. Wind clearly demonstrated he understood the question, but he read too much into it (assuming the key change, in fact I used an 8 tone scale to begin with).

You, of all people, were the last person I expected to be confused by what I asked.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by les_kris
Corwinoid is God
I'm not even God-like... I've officially usurped the Almighty's throne.
Click here to worship me.

Member #3 of the Corwinoid Fan Club
Corwinoid is offline  
Old 04-11-2005, 09:43 PM   #1122
casualty01
Here all along
 
casualty01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Warm and Fuzzyland
yeah, thats what I thought you meant.... as that's exactly what relative means. but how could you possibly say that's relative to G major? it's an Aminor scale at first glance, but it also has a natural 6 in there.... it has both the F and F# ...so the answer could be either G major assuming the the F is a fluke/passing tone or C major assuming the F# is a fluke/passing tone.

understanding your question (what's the relative key) the only one answer that fits exactly with all those notes is my answer. the only reason I'm confused is because you said "correct, G Major" .... how do you come to that conclusion with an F in there?

Cas-
__________________
What's all the buzz about??

Don't be an idiot... click and find out.
casualty01 is offline  
Old 04-11-2005, 09:52 PM   #1123
Corwinoid
UG Monkey
 
Corwinoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: I am Ra. You are perceptive.
^ Well... it's a stretch, but not a big stretch. It's A bebop minor, second mode of G bebop dom; which would be an altered G major. I dismissed the issue of C vs. G because both modes are common enough to be actually named, and because G is the root of the actual scale and the basis for the modified scale. On top of all of that, a transcription would use G major, with the F as the passing tone/alteration.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by les_kris
Corwinoid is God
I'm not even God-like... I've officially usurped the Almighty's throne.
Click here to worship me.

Member #3 of the Corwinoid Fan Club
Corwinoid is offline  
Old 04-11-2005, 10:01 PM   #1124
The_Strat_Man
I'm back!
 
The_Strat_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: sweet home alabama
So, Windjammer gets it.... correct?

If he does, he better hurry up and post and not let this drop below the first, or second page again.

--
Also, I request that this be stickied. It's a great thread that can help many members learn the proper chord naming techniques, and actually help them use those techniques.
__________________
http://bluesgordon.dmusic.com
UG Blues Mafia
Founding Members: Forklifterer, Steve Cropper, Crzyrckgtrst28, and TNfootballfan62
The_Strat_Man is offline  
Old 04-11-2005, 10:59 PM   #1125
Corwinoid
UG Monkey
 
Corwinoid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: I am Ra. You are perceptive.
Quote:
Originally posted by WindJammer
Code:
____ ____ ____ ____ ----------3-7-5-|6---5-3---------|------------4-6-|7-8------------10-| 3-------5-------|--------6-----5-|3-------6-------|----8-------------| ----4-5---------|----------6-3---|----------------|------9-----------| ----------------|----------------|----------------|--------10-9------| ----------------|----------------|----------------|------------------| ----------------|----------------|----------------|------------------| ____ ____ C#7 11---------------------|-----------------------| ---13-12---------------|-----------------------| ---------14-13---11-13-|10---------------------| -----------------------|-----------------------| -----------------------|-----------------------| -----------------------|-----------------------|


Someone can just create a logical chord progression, I suppose... simple chords for each mode/scale is all I'm asking for. I'll show you mine afterwards, but answers will vary.

1st and 4th bars should be easy. The whole thing's pretty easy, but may take a bit of time.

EDIT: 1 per measure.

EDIT: I editted in the C#7.


He already posted!
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by les_kris
Corwinoid is God
I'm not even God-like... I've officially usurped the Almighty's throne.
Click here to worship me.

Member #3 of the Corwinoid Fan Club
Corwinoid is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 03:08 AM   #1126
casualty01
Here all along
 
casualty01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Warm and Fuzzyland
well, sorry guys for bringing another huge argument to this thread but....well, I had to lol.

and cor, don't take this as a raging angry rant or anything lol.... just a friendly raised voice as it were


*ahem*

Quote:
Originally posted by Corwinoid
^ It would have been the same as asking what [major] key is relative to A minor.



right, and that's what I took it as.... answered as... and was correct in my answer. you have your wires crossed as far as the info you thought you knew.



Quote:
Originally posted by Corwinoid
Wind clearly demonstrated he understood the question, but he read too much into it (assuming the key change, in fact I used an 8 tone scale to begin with).


actually, no. as it turns out, he was incorrect. he thought he knew what you wanted, but since your info was wrong, so was his answer. funny how that worked. but hey, not his fault.

Quote:
Originally posted by Corwinoid
You, of all people, were the last person I expected to be confused by what I asked.


I wasn't as it turns out. the only confusion lied in 2 things. 1. I thought perhaps the F# was a fluke and wasn't sure you meant to post a bebop scale. 2. as it turns out, you didn't even know the answer since you seem to have some gaps in your knowledge about what bebop scales are.



so.... read on. it's gonna be a long post.



Quote:
Originally posted by Corwinoid
^ Well... it's a stretch, but not a big stretch. It's A bebop minor, second mode of G bebop dom; which would be an altered G major. I dismissed the issue of C vs. G because both modes are common enough to be actually named, and because G is the root of the actual scale and the basis for the modified scale. On top of all of that, a transcription would use G major, with the F as the passing tone/alteration.





oohhhh ok, lol.... now I see where the confusion lies. you thought you had your information correct


Quote:
Originally posted by Corwinoid
^ Well... it's a stretch, but not a big stretch.


actually, it's a huge stretch. see, when posting wrong info and dubbing it as something it's not, thats a pretty big stretch.

Quote:
Originally posted by Corwinoid
It's A bebop minor, second mode of G bebop dom; which would be an altered G major.


no, it's not. A Bebop minor would be A Dorian with an added natural 3rd... you presented, if anything, A Dorian with an added b6 or A Aeolian with an added 6.... either way, it's not bebop minor. also, G bebop Dom is NOT and altered major scale, which hopefully you'll learn by continuing to read on below.

as far as modes are concerned when it comes to bebops, they don't function like that. there's really only 3 bebops (excluding the half diminished bebop) as far as minor and dominant bebops, the minor bebop is actually the 4th mode of dominant bebop.... (whatta ya know, just like dorian is the 4th mode of mixolydian )



Quote:
Originally posted by Corwinoid
I dismissed the issue of C vs. G because both modes are common enough to be actually named, and because G is the root of the actual scale and the basis for the modified scale.


yeah, both modes are common enough, but you don't know which is which when it comes to bebops. yes, G is the root, but the root is of the mixolydian mode. not the Major scale. so if G is indeed the root, that means G mixolydian which in turn means C Major.



again, just like I already answered.


Quote:
Originally posted by Corwinoid
On top of all of that, a transcription would use G major, with the F as the passing tone/alteration.


on top of all that, no, it wouldn't.

again, since it's an alteration of the MIXOLYDIAN MODE....and we'd be using it over a Gdom chord (diatonic to the key of C) so the key sig would be that of C Major. the diatonic tone in that key is F not F#, the alteration is the F#, NOT the F. ergo, in a transcription done by anyone knowing what they're doing/talking about, the F# would have the accidental....


damn....







Furthering Education


anyways.... the fact is man, the Bebop scale especially the one you used... you know, the DOMINANT bebop scale... yeah, it doesn't come from the Major scale of the tonic of the chord (ie. G bebop does NOT come from G major. hence why you do not play that over a GMaj7 chord. it comes from and is played over G the Dominant chord scale. G Mixolydian.... which belongs in ... whatta ya know. C MAJOR) ... also, MINOR bebop is NOT the "2nd mode of a Dominant bebop".... there's no name for that "mode". at least not one taught or applied since they're synthetics and really isn't applicable in the sense that bebops were designed for.


minor bebop is based off of dorian... take a dorian scale, add a natural 3 and *boom* .... you get a minor bebop scale.

1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 + 3 = 1-2-b3-3-4-5-6-b7

^^^^^^^^^ minor Bebop ^^^^^^^^^^


also, key wise, the minor bebop and the dominant bebop ARE actually in the same key. modes if you will.... you just have it all ass backwards.

ii chord bebop and the V chord bebop are in the same key... it doesn't work with V and vi (well, what I would view as what you put down being the V and vi.... you seem to think they were the I and ii).... bebops don't work like that.




Dominant Bebop 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-7

minor Bebop 1-2-b3-3-4-5-6-b7




in whatever key you're in, you take THAT KEY'S APPROPRIATE MODES (in this case dorian and mixolydian) and alter THEM as such.


apply that to the key of oh, I don't know... C ..... and you get

Code:
Dorian D-E-F--G-A-B-C 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 plus the added tone of a natural 3rd (F#) gives you Bebop minor D-E-F-F#-G-A-B-C 1-2-b3-3-4-5-6-7 Myxolydian G-A-B-C-D-E-F 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7 Add the natural 7 (F#) to make it bebop and you have... G-A-B-C-D-E-F-F# 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-7 THOSE two bebops are both in the same key, and use the same added tone to make them function.


so you see, A bebop minor would be A dorian (key of G Maj) with an added nat. 3rd.

A-B-C-C#-D-E-F#-G

which would give us the same exact notes as D dom bebop

D-E-F#-G-A-B-C-C#


which would THEN make you and windjammer correct. but as you can plainly see... those are not the notes you gave.



however, now take the key of C. modes ii and V are D Dorian and G Mixolydian.

lets make some bebops

Code:
D Dorian D-E-F--G-A-B-C 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7 ADD THE NATURAL 3RD (F#) and you get... D minor bebop D-E-F-F#-G-A-B-C 1-2-b3-3-4-5-6-b7 LETS DANCE WITH MYXOLYDIAN. G Mixolydian G-A-B-C-D-E-F 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7 Add in that NATURAL 7 (again, F#) and you get... G Dominant Bebop G-A-B-C-D-E-F--F# 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-7


now, that is a fact. and those are the notes you gave. that's not specualtion, that's not assumption, that's correct information and the proper interpretation and application of Bebops.

the Bebop dominant scale is not an alteration of major, and bebop minor is not an alteration of aeolian as you have it. or, technically, as you saw it from G Major, you were altering A dorian to have an added b6. that's not the case at all. the bebop that has the b6 added is the Major Bebop (1-2-3-4-5-b6-6-7)


either way, you thought wrong and made an error. not a big deal. but the whole "Im surprised you of all people were confused"... well that just irked me. and apparently, I wasn't. as I answered correctly. you on the other hand had some wrong info and thought you were correct. lol, come on man.......you should know better ....

really cor.... I'm surprised of all people you'd be confused





Cas-
__________________
What's all the buzz about??

Don't be an idiot... click and find out.
casualty01 is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 03:38 AM   #1127
casualty01
Here all along
 
casualty01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Warm and Fuzzyland
Code:
C Maj7 G-7 Bb7#11 A-7 ----------3-7-5-|6---5-3---------|------------4-6-|7-8------------10-| 3-------5-------|--------6-----5-|3-------6-------|----8-------------| ----4-5---------|----------6-3---|----------------|------9-----------| ----------------|----------------|----------------|--------10-9------| ----------------|----------------|----------------|------------------| ----------------|----------------|----------------|------------------| Ab7 C#7 11---------------------|-----------------------| ---13-12---------------|-----------------------| ---------14-13---11-13-|10---------------------| -----------------------|-----------------------| -----------------------|-----------------------| -----------------------|-----------------------|



thats what I like... without the melody, it sounds pretty odd, but with it. mmmm.... of course, that's assuming it repeats back to the Cmaj7


Cas-
__________________
What's all the buzz about??

Don't be an idiot... click and find out.
casualty01 is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 03:36 PM   #1128
WindJammer
Banned
 
WindJammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
First bar, C Ionian mode, easy one.

Seeing as I used that particular diminished mode for the second bar, I myself used C#°7. G7... seems a bit risky, particularly considering the tritone between Bb and E coupled with that same interval between two notes each a half step up from the first (B and F).
B, F, E, Bb... just seems a bit iffy without an instrument to play it with.

However, I suppose I can't say much else against G7.

Third measure, as I'm looking at it, is a Bb7 arpegg. Hm. I used a minor chord for it, but yours obviously makes much more sense, and is the more obvious choice. I actually thought that I had written in an Am arpeggio of some kind (don't know why I thought I did that?) and thought just to add in Dm7 for the chord, but given my mistake, yours is right.

3rd bar, Ionian again, Cmaj7 no doubt works.

5th bar... OK, I used an Eb°7 as there is that particular whole-half diminished scale... but Ab7's fine due to the similarity between our choice of chords. I still prefer mine, however.

As for the last bar, I was planning on having TWO chords, the second being C#7. Dm7, C#7 each in a single bar. My mistake, the F still works out with the chord, and the resolution isn' affected, so, go ahead.

EDIT: To make Beat not look crazy, I'll edit in my redo instead of removing the original:

Gm7: Now that the b3 in the melody is a harmonic function (as though it once wasn't ) of the chord, I like it a lot better- plus the b5 (C#) makes a little more sense in a minor context... seeing as the root of your chod is the b5 of my chord, things are looking just dandy.

Am7: Hmmm... I'll say that this is even MORE closely related to the "ideal" (not really ideal, but I AM using Eb whole-half over an Ebdim7, just seems to make the most sense) chord... Eb/Gb/A/C and A/C/E/G... However, I'd have gone with Am7b5, TBH (with respect ot the melody, at least).

Last edited by WindJammer : 04-12-2005 at 05:33 PM.
WindJammer is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 04:29 PM   #1129
beatallica_fan
UG fluffly club member #5
 
beatallica_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: warm and fuzzyland
His second chord is Gmin7, (- means minor) not G7.
__________________
Member #5 of UGs fluffly club, and proud of it

Our mission - to be warmer and fuzzier than any other club

http://beatallica.dmusic.com/
beatallica_fan is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 05:16 PM   #1130
The_Strat_Man
I'm back!
 
The_Strat_Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: sweet home alabama
What a rant Cas. That information (though being there to help Corwinoid) helped me out a lot on the bebop scales and forming them. I've always had a blank space in my mind about those bebop scales.
__________________
http://bluesgordon.dmusic.com
UG Blues Mafia
Founding Members: Forklifterer, Steve Cropper, Crzyrckgtrst28, and TNfootballfan62
The_Strat_Man is offline  
Old 04-12-2005, 05:20 PM   #1131
WindJammer
Banned
 
WindJammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Quote:
Originally posted by beatallica_fan
His second chord is Gmin7, (- means minor) not G7.


God damn old-fashioned chord sheets!

Hm. Give me a moment to edit in to see if you still got it, please, because this eliminates the trione interval one half step from another tritone.
WindJammer is offline  
 


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:43 PM.

Forum Archives / About / Terms of Use / Advertise / Contact / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2014
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.