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Old 06-05-2014, 09:25 PM   #121
slap-a-bass
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eets seemple. you kill da batman!

srsly though, paying for professional lessons gives you an edge over teaching yourself in terms of where you want to be in how long. However, any time spent learning and playing guitar is always good. If you've made any mistakes in your habits, you can always go back and fix them and youve retained the hours that youve spent practiced. the more you play and practice..the better you are..and somewhere down the line you can pay attention to the details. Just practice!
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Old 06-06-2014, 06:38 AM   #122
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
Always does great things for your post to start with an ad hom

First off, why are your anectodes valid and mine are not? Hypocrite


Second off, I'm sure your students can conceptually understand coltrane. Could they read a big band arrangement of resolution?

Finally, I think it's hysterical that you think you need a sample size of 10000 for a straw poll. Have you never studied statistics? I'd say stick to music, but you seek to have a tough time with that. Well, you know what they say, if you can't do, teach.

I'm still waiting for a response to any of the questions I asked you, such as, what is a traditional teaching method, what is a modern teaching method, describe a Pythagorean comma without the circle of fifths, and how do double stop unisons make string music hard to read

Keep up the sh.it posting!


It's not Ad Hom.

I use valid anecdotes.

If any of my students wish to play a big band arrangement of resolution, I can tailor my teaching to accommodate those goals. The question, then becomes, "What relevance is your point, as to their understanding and knowledge of such, if they have not expressed interest?"

My offer of a sample size that large, was to give you the chance that you might get one response that would support your dramatic hypothesis.

While you're waiting for these answers, it might be a good idea to read my response that I've already made to each of those "answers" that you've asked for.

1.0136432647705078125

432 hz

Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 06-06-2014 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 09:54 AM   #123
bassalloverthe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
It's not Ad Hom.

I use valid anecdotes.

If any of my students wish to play a big band arrangement of resolution, I can tailor my teaching to accommodate those goals. The question, then becomes, "What relevance is your point, as to their understanding and knowledge of such, if they have not expressed interest?"

My offer of a sample size that large, was to give you the chance that you might get one response that would support your dramatic hypothesis.

While you're waiting for these answers, it might be a good idea to read my response that I've already made to each of those "answers" that you've asked for.

1.0136432647705078125

432 hz


Best,

Sean


My anectodes are also valid. A Pythagorean comma does not have to equal 432 Hz. It can be any frequency depending on where you start. Did you just Google Pythagorean comma and copy paste an answer? Also, the many digit number you gave is if you displace the comma back to the original octave. The actual comma is several octaves above that

And your post, you just admitted that sometimes traditional methods are valid and even you see fit to teach them. This is all going back to your original statement that traditional teaching is useless, which I found to be a brash statement, on par with a snake oil salesmen

My hypothesis seems dramatic but it's not. I just was asked to play in a blues band which had an 80 song set, and the first rehearsal was in two weeks. Did I memorize each song? Of course not. I listened to each song two or three times and made something akin to my own fake book for the band. Much time and stress was saved.

Last edited by bassalloverthe : 06-07-2014 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 10:20 AM   #124
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
My anectodes are also valid. A Pythagorean comma does not have to equal 432 Hz. It can be any frequency depending on where you start. Did you just Google Pythagorean comma and copy paste an answer? Also, the many digit number you gave is if you displace the comma back to the original octave. The actual comma is several octaves above that

And your post, you just admitted that sometimes traditional methods are valid and even you see fit to teach them. This is all going back to your original statement that traditional teaching is useless, which I found to be a brash statement, on par with a snake oil salesmen

My hypothesis seems dramatic but it's not. I just was asked to play in a blues band which had an 80 song set, and the first rehearsal was in two weeks. Did I memorize each song? Of course not. I listened to each song two or three times and made something akin to my own fake book for the band. Much time and stress was saved.



You asked a pretty general question, and if people are interested in Pythagorean concepts like 3:2, commas, and tuning, then 432hz is all doable without needing Co5. You never shared how it's relevant to general teaching to begin with. You entertain me, by how off base you are in what you think you "know". It's like following a ping pong ball. You're everywhere but reality.

I did not admit to traditional methods being valid. You are wrong. Nowhere did I represent that my method for teaching any of those things, as traditional.

You lose traction in any points you attempt when you fail to comprehend what you read. But that's really a personal problem; I cannot help you there.

Congratulations on your blues band invite, but you're changing the script. You went from 5 bands to 1. And "hundreds" of original tunes in each, to 80. You don't even fit your own sample set!

And anyone can do that, with simple Keys, NN, or Roman Numeric Notation. That's not hard, and I teach these in one of my courses online, when I teach other concepts as well, and apply them to analysis, and application. None of which require music reading. I can take 80 songs and do that in an afternoon. So can my students. This is not difficult, it's cake.

Here, show us what you've got. This is from an actual "Homework Question" at the Academy.

Tell me what the chords and actual voicings are from :40-:49 Analyze it. Use your sheet music and sight reading. This ought to be good.



(crickets)

I'm laughing right now. That cliff edge you're so desperately grasping for, gave way a long time ago.

Will there be anything else?

Snake oil indeed.

Have a great weekend!

Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 06-07-2014 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 10:33 AM   #125
bassalloverthe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
You asked a pretty general question, and if people are interested in Pythagorean concepts like 3:2, commas, and tuning, then 432hz is all doable without needing Co5. You never shared how it's relevant to general teaching to begin with. You entertain me, by how off base you are in what you think you "know". It's like following a ping pong ball. You're everywhere but reality.

I did not admit to traditional methods being valid. You are wrong. Nowhere did I represent that my method for teaching any of those things, as traditional.

You lose traction in any points you attempt when you fail to comprehend what you read. But that's really a personal problem; I cannot help you there.

Congratulations on your blues band invite, but you're changing the script. You went from 5 bands to 1. And "hundreds" of original tunes in each, to 80. You don't even fit your own sample set!

And anyone can do that, with simple Keys, NN, or Roman Numeric Notation. That's not hard, and I teach these in one of my courses online, when I teach other concepts as well, and apply them to analysis, and application. None of which require music reading. I can take 80 songs and do that in an afternoon. So can my students. This is not difficult, it's cake.

I'm laughing right now. That cliff edge you're so desperately grasping for, gave way a long time ago.

Will there be anything else?

Snake oil indeed.

Have a great weekend!

Best,

Sean


Your first paragraph is a crock. Just admit you don't know what the comma is and that you don't know how to teach it. Don't use "general teaching" as an excuse for not knowing


My original example was simply knowing 100 different songs with 5 bands. Twenty songs for each, don't misconstrue my point for the sake of argument. That was hypothetical and then I gave you a personal example I am dealing with. My story never changed

You listed standard notation as a traditional teaching method and then said you could teach it if you want to. So which is it? Furthermore, how us the circle of fifths a method if teaching? I'm waiting

Also, your students can all make simple lead sheets? I can quote you several pages ago saying that hardly any guitarists know or need to know that skill

EDIT: If you explain your question a bit better, Id be happy to answer it in muscore for you. Are you referring to the convention of naming pitches as ratios in the harmonic series? In other words, 40:39, 41:40, etc. Then identifying these pitches in relation to C and analyzing them in chords and scales? Its a very vague question

DOUBLEEDIT: Oh, I just thought you were posting a cheeky video to be a cocksucker. Yea, Ill transcribe the guitar and bell parts. You want the melody to? I feel the drums are unnecessary

Last edited by bassalloverthe : 06-07-2014 at 10:45 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 10:57 AM   #126
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
Your first paragraph is a crock. Just admit you don't know what the comma is and that you don't know how to teach it. Don't use "general teaching" as an excuse for not knowing


My original example was simply knowing 100 different songs with 5 bands. Twenty songs for each, don't misconstrue my point for the sake of argument. That was hypothetical and then I gave you a personal example I am dealing with. My story never changed

You listed standard notation as a traditional teaching method and then said you could teach it if you want to. So which is it? Furthermore, how us the circle of fifths a method if teaching? I'm waiting

Also, your students can all make simple lead sheets? I can quote you several pages ago saying that hardly any guitarists know or need to know that skill


An "excuse"? You use that word a lot. Have I been asking for your acceptance somewhere? Do I need any "excuse"? You seem to operate under a presumption that isn't consistent with reality...this must get confusing for you.

20 Songs for each? Cake. Your point is obliterated. I thought it was something that was supposed to be difficult. No sight reading needed. 20 songs is hardly a set and a half! Laughing.

A crock because I answered your question? I'm sorry that your point failed, but it's just one of every point that has with you. We can answer the Pythagorean Tuning inquiries with 432hz. I teach guitar players, I don't know if you lost that point somewhere.

What I said with regards to standard notation was in context with a lot of other things I said previously about standard notation and its usefulness. You're late to the party. I can't help it if you cannot follow context and progression. That's for you to work out.

Co5 is a component of traditional teaching, and how it's taught and why it's taught. It's not a method in and of itself. You totally missed it.

Here's a Template for you to follow, and then plug different variables into:

Co5 = Something that's taught with music theory
How it's taught - (or method...whatever comes to your mind as to how you learned it, know it or understand it) = Traditional

You appear to struggle to process what you read.

Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 06-07-2014 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:08 AM   #127
bassalloverthe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
An "excuse"? You use that word a lot. Have I been asking for your acceptance somewhere? Do I need any "excuse"? You seem to operate under a presumption that isn't consistent with reality...this must get confusing for you.

20 Songs for each? Cake. Your point is obliterated. I thought it was something that was supposed to be difficult. No sight reading needed. 20 songs is hardly a set and a half! Laughing.

A crock because I answered your question? I'm sorry that your point failed, but it's just one of every point that has with you. We can answer the Pythagorean Tuning inquiries with 432hz. I teach guitar players, I don't know if you lost that point somewhere.

What I said with regards to standard notation was in context with a lot of other things I said previously about standard notation and its usefulness. You're late to the party. I can't help it if you cannot follow context and progression. That's for you to work out.

Co5 is a component of traditional teaching, and how it's taught and why it's taught. It's not a method in and of itself. You totally missed it.

Here's a Template for you to follow, and then plug different variables into:

Co5 = Something that's taught with music theory
How it's taught - (or method...whatever comes to your mind as to how you learned it, know it or understand it) = Traditional

Best,

Sean


How is my point obliterated? My point was simply that making your own lead sheets is an easy way to keep track of a lot of music

Your answer is a crock because I can tell you literally just googled the term and copy pasted the answer. A Pythagorean comma has nothing to do with 432 hz unless its because you started at a frequency which leaves you at 432 hz. Its what comes up when you google pythagorean comma. No, you cant answer the comma question just by saying 432. You really cant. The fact that you think you can shows you know nothing about it

You said circle of fifths was a teaching method, and Ill quote you on that if you want. Whos changing the argument now?



PS I would never do RN analysis on this progression. If I did for the sake of a totally pointless arguement, I would say its

vdim6/4 /V-V-vi key change
___________i - IV6/4


Its stupid because you have to read F# dim as an inversion of C dim and thats clearly not the effect of the chord progression

Whats really going on is you are just playing around with the half step leading tones between F-F# and C-C# and then going to IV.

Last edited by bassalloverthe : 06-07-2014 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:28 AM   #128
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
How is my point obliterated? My point was simply that making your own lead sheets is an easy way to keep track of a lot of music

Your answer is a crock because I can tell you literally just googled the term and copy pasted the answer. A Pythagorean comma has nothing to do with 432 hz unless its because you started at a frequency which leaves you at 432 hz. Its what comes up when you google pythagorean comma. No, you cant answer the comma question just by saying 432. You really cant. The fact that you think you can shows you know nothing about it

You said circle of fifths was a teaching method, and Ill quote you on that if you want. Whos changing the argument now?



Thanks for the song title. I'll promptly advise the women in my life. Won't they be surprised?

Keeping it classy there.

The connection you fail to make is that the comma is associated with Pythagorean tuning. I could have mentioned that we use 12T or ETT, but I figured I'd indulge you and use 432hz. So the point of the PC, which addresses a valid reasoning that you cannot tune to a perfect circle of 5ths and arrive at the starting point perfectly in tune; that there is an offset/shortfall of about 24 cents. Yay.

So how many of your guitar students are actually presenting to you with this theoretical conundrum?

(crickets)

You are grasping for air...

By the way, I'd fail you on your chart answers. If you think that's what a voicing looks like. Smiles.

Edit: Saw you've added to your analysis. That's better, figured bass and all, I see. Good. Now, how would you know how to do that without knowing how to sightread?


Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 06-07-2014 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:36 AM   #129
bassalloverthe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
Thanks for the song title. I'll promptly advise the women in my life. Won't they be surprised?

Keeping it classy there.

The connection you fail to make is that the comma is associated with Pythagorean tuning. I could have mentioned that we use 12T or ETT, but I figured I'd indulge you and use 432hz. So the point of the PC, which addresses a valid reasoning that you cannot tune to a perfect circle of 5ths and arrive at the starting point perfectly in tune; that there is an offset/shortfall of about 24 cents. Yay.

So how many of your guitar students are actually presenting to you with this theoretical conundrum?

(crickets)

You are grasping for air...

By the way, I'd fail you on your chart answers. If you think that's what a voicing looks like. Smiles.

Will there be anything else?

Best,

Sean


Oh, MY BAD I FORGOT THE VOICINGS. The first chord he is just leaving out the fifth. The rest just sound like closed voicings. How do would you like me to notate that so I can make you happy?

432 has NOTHING TO DO WITH 12TET homie. If A is 440, there is no 432 pitch present in 12TET. WTF are you talking about? Once again, you just googled the comma and pasted the answer. You have no clue what it is. Also, dont use PC as an abbreviation for the comma. You will confuse those of us who know set theory

>Guitar students

I dont play guitar or teach guitar students. I do, however, tune and regulate pianos. Its one of the first concepts apprentices learn

PS

So everyone knows, the comma is relevant to more than just pythagorean tuning. Every single tuning system in western music is based on the redistribution of the comma. See: extended meantone, JI, 12TET, well temperement, and the FAC spread on pianos

EDIT

To respond to your edit, I dont know how I would do it without reading music personally. Ive been reading music daily since I was like 8 years old or something, and when I learned RN analysis, I already could read music quite well.

The whole point of this thread was asking how *you* would teach it *without* a student reading music. But apparently you wont reveal that information unless I buy something from you

Last edited by bassalloverthe : 06-07-2014 at 11:46 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:46 AM   #130
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
Oh, MY BAD I FORGOT THE VOICINGS. The first chord he is just leaving out the fifth. The rest just sound like closed voicings. How do would you like me to notate that so I can make you happy?

432 has NOTHING TO DO WITH 12TET homie. If A is 440, there is no 432 pitch present in 12TET. WTF are you talking about? Once again, you just googled the comma and pasted the answer. You have no clue what it is. Also, dont use PC as an abbreviation for the comma. You will confuse those of us who know set theory

>Guitar students

I dont play guitar or teach guitar students. I do, however, tune and regulate pianos. Its one of the first concepts apprentices learn


You're missing the fact that we use it. I'm not connecting 432 to 12TET, I'm saying that most people use 440. And if you want to learn and appreciate and understand the Pythagorean Tuning, then do that. I don't need the Co5 which is what brought your ramblings about how to explain a Pythagorean Comma, and I asked you why would I care, and you clearly had no answer, so I addressed how I'd deal with the question.

Once you understand the reasoning, without a Co5, make your 432hz and hear the difference. What are you not understanding?

I hate having to ask about your understanding with each and every post. I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.

Nice little stab concerning set theory. I guess I'll have to include myself among "Those of us who know set theory". And strange thing is, I'm not confused. I read things in context; it works. It's good practice.

Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 06-07-2014 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 11:53 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean0913
You're missing the fact that we use it. I'm not connecting 432 to 12TET, I'm saying that most people use 440. And if you want to learn and appreciate and understand the Pythagorean Tuning, then do that. I don't need the Co5 which is what brought your ramblings about how to explain a Pythagorean Comma, and I asked you why would I care, and you clearly had no answer, so I addressed how I'd deal with the question.

Once you understand the reasoning, without a Co5, make your 432hz and hear the difference. What are you not understanding?

I hate having to ask about your understanding with each and every post. I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.

Best,

Sean


What Im trying to explain to you (in the form of asking questions) is that you are just describing a quarter tone (the difference between 432 and 440). In the post you brought 432 up, you didnt have any reference to 440, so how is anyone to know what you are talking about?

Further than that, if a student plays 432 against 440, not only is that NOT a pythagorean comma (which would be several octaves up from 440, not 440), you have also only described a quarter tone. Nothing which actually defines the comma or why its important. The comma is a convention of tuning redistribution, useless to talk about in any other context. The second point of this paragraph is subjective. The first point is not

Actually, I am the one feeling sorry for you. You try again and again to dominate the conversation with broad generalizations, but youve been wrong on every single technical point. Also, your entire position is based on an appeal to ignorance (why do my students NEED to know this?)

EDEET

The reason circle of fifths is important for tuning isnt that its circle of *fifths* its that its an interval cycle. And its the only interval cycle which yields all 12 notes. All tuning is based on interval cycles (meantone is using interval cycles of fifths and thirds to tune all 12 notes)

Last edited by bassalloverthe : 06-07-2014 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:09 PM   #132
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bassalloverthe
What Im trying to explain to you (in the form of asking questions) is that you are just describing a quarter tone (the difference between 432 and 440). In the post you brought 432 up, you didnt have any reference to 440, so how is anyone to know what you are talking about?

Further than that, if a student plays 432 against 440, not only is that NOT a pythagorean comma (which would be several octaves up from 440, not 440), you have also only described a quarter tone. Nothing which actually defines the comma or why its important. The comma is a convention of tuning redistribution, useless to talk about in any other context. The second point of this paragraph is subjective. The first point is not

Actually, I am the one feeling sorry for you. You try again and again to dominate the conversation with broad generalizations, but youve been wrong on every single technical point. Also, your entire position is based on an appeal to ignorance (why do my students NEED to know this?)


Everyone that has followed this and understands what they read, will know what I'm talking about.

No one is suggesting that you play 432 against 440. I don't know where that invention came from. You should stay on point.

You restated what I already said about a comma. Not only have I not been wrong, you've shown no sign that you comprehend what you read.

No wonder your responses make no sense; I could simply credit you with ignorance, however you resort to strawmen, red herrings, and inventing wild hypotheticals, all which suggest design, intended to obscure and distract. So I cannot simply say "aww he just doesn't know better". The actual point is you're erratic and terribly deficient on making any headway with your desperate points. And the points themselves, are of such questionable relevance to guitar players in this topic.

That small cliff edge you clung to is long gone.

You do not understand the appeal to relevance, and that's why this is all such a mystery to you.

I don't want you to buy anything from me. In fact the appropriate answer that you should give to my claim that I can do so much without the student needing music, is "Hey that's cool. Glad it works out for you". And move on.

That's the right answer.

Best,

Sean
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Last edited by Sean0913 : 06-07-2014 at 12:16 PM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:15 PM   #133
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@UnrealT on:

Quote:
So do you think that when it takes years it is actually due to a lack of proper knowledge and other things when trying to achieve musical goals?

Lack of knowledge of what the optimal path to accomplishing musical goals, lack of a desire to at least approximate the optimal path to one's musical goals, and the lack of the willpower to spend the true (retrospectively) time and effort which will have been required to arrive at the the completion of said musical goals.
----


@bass on the Pythagorean Comma:

Is this a semantic thing about the difference between THE Circle of (not actually perfect) Fifths and /an/ interval cycle of (just/actually) perfect fifths? As far as I get the picture, the Pythagorean Comma is a discrepancy in pitch which arises from the derivation of an interval cycle of just fifths from a starting frequency or pitch and the derivation of an interval cycle of a just(?) octave out to a higher pitch at which the two are most approximate but still not equal while staying within the range of pitch audible to the normal human ear.
----


@Sean on the Pythagorean Comma:

I agree that almost nobody who holds a guitar needs to know this.
----


@both of you on each other:

Why so much violence? This got off-topic pages ago and I don't see how this can actually help someone figure out if they could get "better at guitar" faster than as determined after the fact when it's already been agreed in-thread that the whole answer is just the accurate and honest appraisal of goals matched to studious attention to the development of a plan to meet those goals adequately, married to the candid submission to the necessity of willpower and diligence needed to convert the plan to actual results. You guys are bleeding a lot and I'm starting to worry ;~;
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Last edited by AETHERA : 06-07-2014 at 12:21 PM. Reason: Gave an answer to UnrealT's question :x
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:31 PM   #134
Sean0913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AETHERA
@both of you on each other:

Why so much violence? This got off-topic pages ago and I don't see how this can actually help someone figure out if they could get "better at guitar" faster than as determined after the fact when it's already been agreed in-thread that the whole answer is just the accurate and honest appraisal of goals matched to studious attention to the development of a plan to meet those goals adequately, married to the candid submission to the necessity of willpower and diligence needed to convert the plan to actual results. You guys are bleeding a lot and I'm starting to worry ;~;


If you really look at it, there's an aggressor, and there's someone calm, completely non-plussed, responding to questions comments and statements made by the aggressor. Mostly amused. There's nothing violent to it.

I'll respond to anyone that asks me a question, or makes a comment directed towards me. He's just doing it a lot. In this instance, I am responding to you.

I agree with you about Pythagorean Tuning.

I find his aggression amusing and transparent. Still, I am able to calmly respond to his non-points, and wild accusations honestly, without the slightest pulse rate increase. It's definitely not personal. It's impossible for it to be personal to me, when there is no value ascribed to that person, or their ability to influence.

I find it hard to ignore someone, if they ask something, (even when they lack decorum and social awareness) but if you suggest that's the better road to follow, I'll do it for the sake of this topic. It's just natural for me to respond. I have no agenda, nothing to prove, and nothing to hide or hide from, so I simply engage people on the points they made (or don't), just like I would with anyone.

Best,

Sean
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:37 PM   #135
bassalloverthe
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The comma is important because if you dont redistribute it, you wont get equal octaves. This is a huge problem on instruments that play more than 1-2 octaves (see:the guitar)

Its important to the argument because its a concept which requires something that shawn said was useless (see: circle of fifths)

Pythagorean tuning is relevant because its the tuning which all systems are derived from (see: 12TET)

"The comma is useless to someone holding a guitar"

I see this is the part of the thread where I start posting links to videos



Sean, if if you arent playing 432 against anything, how is it relevant. Youve just given a pitch. From what frequency will the comma yield a frequency of 432? Thats my question

"The discrepancies cause by the comma are inaudible to the ear"

The human ear can hear deviations in pitch down to approximately 3 cents. The comma is approximately 25 cents

Wolfgang von Schweinitz has so much literature on how the ear perceives different tuning systems

PLEBBIT:

He references the circle of fifths 1:45 in the video

Last edited by bassalloverthe : 06-07-2014 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 06-07-2014, 12:59 PM   #136
AETHERA
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@bass:

I didn't say flat nobody though :x

Quote:
Originally Posted by me, from before
I agree that |almost nobody| who holds a guitar needs to know this. ----


Mr. Çoğulu is an exception, as is anyone adapting a guitar to, |for specific instance|, the gamelan scales pélog and sléndro. I also ask: would you agree that those scales are in |almost any case unless as refuted by impeccable musicological and ethnographic historical study| not influenced by Pythagorean tuning or its progeny at all? esp. even though they can be analyzed through the lens of the Western tradition of classical music tunings?


Also, as a thought experiment: an individual could inherit Mr. Çoğulu's guitar or one that has been refitted for the purpose of gamelan music, and learn to play it and succeed in playing the music for which it is fitted without ever knowing the mechanics of its tuning. This hypothetical scenario holds many parallels to how people informally learn music, and people who informally learn music or learn it with at least some modicum of slack certainly do appear on this forum and pragmatism suggests that we take this into consideration...
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Old 06-07-2014, 01:15 PM   #137
bassalloverthe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AETHERA
@bass:

I didn't say flat nobody though :x



Mr. Çoğulu is an exception, as is anyone adapting a guitar to, |for specific instance|, the gamelan scales pélog and sléndro. I also ask: would you agree that those scales are in |almost any case unless as refuted by impeccable musicological and ethnographic historical study| not influenced by Pythagorean tuning or its progeny at all? esp. even though they can be analyzed through the lens of the Western tradition of classical music tunings?


Also, as a thought experiment: an individual could inherit Mr. Çoğulu's guitar or one that has been refitted for the purpose of gamelan music, and learn to play it and succeed in playing the music for which it is fitted without ever knowing the mechanics of its tuning. This hypothetical scenario holds many parallels to how people informally learn music, and people who informally learn music or learn it with at least some modicum of slack certainly do appear on this forum and pragmatism suggests that we take this into consideration...


The title of the video includes JI and meantone, two western tuning systems. He has more videos if you want to search
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Old 06-07-2014, 01:24 PM   #138
AETHERA
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I ask, if you're willing and invested enough in it, to comment on:
Quote:
Originally Posted by me, from before.
pélog and sléndro

Quote:
Originally Posted by me, from before again.
pélog and sléndro

Quote:
Originally Posted by me, from before also again.
pélog and sléndro

And thereafter:
Quote:
Originally Posted by me.
[W]ould you agree that those scales are in |almost any case unless as refuted by impeccable musicological and ethnographic historical study| not influenced by Pythagorean tuning or its progeny at all? esp. even though they can be analyzed through the lens of the Western tradition of classical music tunings?


Here's a video from Mr. Çoğulu using a gamelan scale:



P.S. Bohlen-Pierce scale would be fun to talk about too. *shrug*
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Old 06-07-2014, 02:06 PM   #139
bassalloverthe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AETHERA
I ask, if you're willing and invested enough in it, to comment on:



And thereafter:


Here's a video from Mr. Çoğulu using a gamelan scale:



P.S. Bohlen-Pierce scale would be fun to talk about too. *shrug*


Having studied Balinese and a bit of Javanese gamelan, my comment is that it's ****ing awesome. since he has movable frets, he can literally play in any tuning system. So it makes sense that at some point you would get bored of western systems and apply the guitar to other systems.

Oh another thing to mention. All tuning systems, even non western can be described by the harmonic series

My point in general though is that someone who spends much time playing music will come across these concepts and questions, and I would hope the teaching method they used would equip them to understand the answers. I don't see "my student isn't currently interested in this" as a valid argument for not being able to teach

I also don't support using a techniques age as a valid means of dismissing said technique. That's the praxis of the argument where I disagreed with Shawn for calling traditional methods "useless"

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Old 06-07-2014, 10:54 PM   #140
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O boy, what have I started !? lol
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