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Old Today, 07:47 PM   #18801
DisarmGoliath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal
One thing I'm not entirely sure of are pre-workout mixes; Those are mainly Caffeine and B vitamin combinations, correct? I usually just drink a cup of tea and a protein shake before lifting.

Well, the main thing for most of them is, or used to be, finding potent but legal stimulants to put in there. The problem, as with the current trends of 'legal highs' that I presume is a problem in much of the developed world, is that many of these substances are only legal because they haven't thought to ban them yet and/or not enough research has been done on them to warrant it.

So, there were a load banned in the UK a while back (and possibly in the US, too?) because they contained a chemical called DMAA (Jack3d was one of them). It wasn't illegal at the time Jack3d was first made because nobody had thought to ban it, but it is essentially a legal variant to speed (obviously it's not quite the same thing, but it's often referred to as an 'amphetamine-like substance' and the proper name '1,3-dimethylamylamine' shows it isn't a million miles away from meth (N-methyl-alpha-methylphenethylamine) - though it is worth pointing out that a few different bonds and elements can create completely different results... the fact that carbon alone can create so many different things is testament to that.

Basically though, to ignore my random digression, most pre-workouts that become infamous for producing really big highs, determination and the 'pumped' feeling in excess, often have really strong stimulants. Caffeine isn't as big a worry because we know a lot more about it, and humans have been taking it (in tea and coffee) for hundreds of years without lethal effects and unless the doses go above legal limits, the worst most people will get is inability to sleep and maybe shakes and palpitations for a while after ingestion.
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Old Today, 08:14 PM   #18802
jambi_mantra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
Well, the main thing for most of them is, or used to be, finding potent but legal stimulants to put in there. The problem, as with the current trends of 'legal highs' that I presume is a problem in much of the developed world, is that many of these substances are only legal because they haven't thought to ban them yet and/or not enough research has been done on them to warrant it.

So, there were a load banned in the UK a while back (and possibly in the US, too?) because they contained a chemical called DMAA (Jack3d was one of them). It wasn't illegal at the time Jack3d was first made because nobody had thought to ban it, but it is essentially a legal variant to speed (obviously it's not quite the same thing, but it's often referred to as an 'amphetamine-like substance' and the proper name '1,3-dimethylamylamine' shows it isn't a million miles away from meth (N-methyl-alpha-methylphenethylamine) - though it is worth pointing out that a few different bonds and elements can create completely different results... the fact that carbon alone can create so many different things is testament to that.

Basically though, to ignore my random digression, most pre-workouts that become infamous for producing really big highs, determination and the 'pumped' feeling in excess, often have really strong stimulants. Caffeine isn't as big a worry because we know a lot more about it, and humans have been taking it (in tea and coffee) for hundreds of years without lethal effects and unless the doses go above legal limits, the worst most people will get is inability to sleep and maybe shakes and palpitations for a while after ingestion.


DMAA was less about legal high and more about drug tests. It kept giving false positives and was therefore banned by WADA as a performance enhancing substance. Whether it's actually legal or not I can't say I know, I don't think it's illegal in a drug sense. The WADA case brought it to attention and meant that each version of the FDA decided it was unsafe for consumption.

In regards to the caffeine paragraph, while true, some pre-workouts have dangerous amounts of caffeine in them, like seriously unhealthy. And if someone who hasn't had a decent pre-screening takes one they could easily have a cardiac episode or other health complications.

I used to be a supplement *****, now I'm like eh, I take protein/mass gainer because it fits my needs/life limits. I wouldn't say I'm "anti" supplement, I just think 99% of people can go without
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Old Today, 08:22 PM   #18803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jambi_mantra
DMAA was less about legal high and more about drug tests. It kept giving false positives and was therefore banned by WADA as a performance enhancing substance. Whether it's actually legal or not I can't say I know, I don't think it's illegal in a drug sense. The WADA case brought it to attention and meant that each version of the FDA decided it was unsafe for consumption.

In regards to the caffeine paragraph, while true, some pre-workouts have dangerous amounts of caffeine in them, like seriously unhealthy. And if someone who hasn't had a decent pre-screening takes one they could easily have a cardiac episode or other health complications.

I used to be a supplement *****, now I'm like eh, I take protein/mass gainer because it fits my needs/life limits. I wouldn't say I'm "anti" supplement, I just think 99% of people can go without


This.

I used to take NO Explode until I nearly had a heart attack while doing deadlifts. The only supplements I will take are: Whey, creatine, arginine, glutamine, fish oil & multi vitamin.
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Old Today, 08:26 PM   #18804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Is Brutal
lolwut


what do you mean "lolwut"?

Aside: the idea that only professional or competition level athletes need protein supplementation is flat/out wrong. By definition, a supplement's purpose is to augment insufficient diets, more or less. To say that only those such people exercise to the extent and eat to the extent where protein supplementation (as well as vitamin, amino acids, etc supplementation) is necessary is unrealistically hopeful.
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Old Today, 08:28 PM   #18805
DisarmGoliath
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Originally Posted by jambi_mantra
DMAA was less about legal high and more about drug tests. It kept giving false positives and was therefore banned by WADA as a performance enhancing substance. Whether it's actually legal or not I can't say I know, I don't think it's illegal in a drug sense. The WADA case brought it to attention and meant that each version of the FDA decided it was unsafe for consumption.

In the UK it's a banned substance (in the EU too, I think) but unsure about the US and what the FDA allows. It was banned here because it had amphetamine-like characteristics and they were concerned about its impact on regular users. I dunno if they found any serious side-effects but I believe a big factor was the comedowns people were suffering, as well as a speed-like effect on people (e.g. you shouldn't drive on it and people were more aggressive etc.). I'm only going on what little I've read though.

Quote:
In regards to the caffeine paragraph, while true, some pre-workouts have dangerous amounts of caffeine in them, like seriously unhealthy. And if someone who hasn't had a decent pre-screening takes one they could easily have a cardiac episode or other health complications.

Fair enough, I've only seen a few pre-workouts that I've bothered to check what's in. I think the typical amount in ones in the UK (the ones I've seen anyway, on myprotein and theproteinworks sites) are like 200mg caffeine in a serving. That's more than energy drinks, but I wouldn't expect it to affect a healthy person too much other than heart-racing and other stimulant effects.

Quote:
I used to be a supplement *****, now I'm like eh, I take protein/mass gainer because it fits my needs/life limits. I wouldn't say I'm "anti" supplement, I just think 99% of people can go without

Yeah, I just stick to my protein shakes (I take a mass gainer some times, and just flavoured whey mixed in to smaller servings of the gainer other times), and creatine... haven't got through the bag I got for free yet so haven't had to decide whether to order more. I have glutamine, too, but take it on/off at the moment... trying to workout if it's having any effect on recovery whatsoever but because today is my first day training after two weeks off with bad back, I haven't had much to recover from workout-wise so haven't used much in ages.

Pretty much I just take the protein stuff, which has BCAAs in anyway, as it's cheaper and easier than getting as many good, high-protein meals in a day.
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Old Today, 08:34 PM   #18806
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I take preworkout, post-workout protein, multi-vitamin, fish oil, and joint support.

Suck my dick naysayers, I'm in better shape than everyone else in this thread.
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Old Today, 08:39 PM   #18807
DisarmGoliath
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Yeah, but pre-workout is for motivation and to force out a better workout when feeling less-pumped, right? It's not like the pre-workout is essential to your condition. As for the other stuff... well, you are getting on in years


I'm joking, my posts in here only represent my opinion and limited experience based on recreational/very amateur lifting >.> If something crosses over enough into science I feel I know a little about, I tend to try and weigh in with another voice etc.
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Old Today, 08:40 PM   #18808
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Yeah preworkout is almost a necessity for me.
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Old Today, 08:45 PM   #18809
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Out of all the supps I've tried including creatine, glutamine, glucosamine, tea extracts(in a thermogenic, yohimbe, suma root, beta-alanine, several different pres, and whey, I'd say whey is the only one that has made a noticeable difference to me.
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Old Today, 08:51 PM   #18810
jambi_mantra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought
what do you mean "lolwut"?

Aside: the idea that only professional or competition level athletes need protein supplementation is flat/out wrong. By definition, a supplement's purpose is to augment insufficient diets, more or less. To say that only those such people exercise to the extent and eat to the extent where protein supplementation (as well as vitamin, amino acids, etc supplementation) is necessary is unrealistically hopeful.



That wasn't what I meant by 99% of people can go without. I mean when you've got weekend warriors who are taking a list of supplements longer than my arm when they work a standard 9-5 job. I think it's unnecessary.

You have a physically demanding job, put yourself through a lot of training and do physical activities for fun, I wouldn't put you in the "normal" category

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreadnought
I take preworkout, post-workout protein, multi-vitamin, fish oil, and joint support.

Suck my dick naysayers, I'm in better shape than everyone else in this thread.


Other than the preworkout (because I feel nothing on them) I take the same. I don't really count multi vits and fish oil as supplements for this particular discussion
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