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Old 12-03-2012, 06:31 AM   #101
pinguinpanic
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Concidering you want the scales to be 7 note scales that include the chord tones of Am there are 1*1*1*9*8*7*6=3024 possible scales. I don't really see any reason to name all scales you could use.
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:26 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
The fact that you link that and don't understand it's relevance (or lack thereof) should disgust you more.

Did you know the word "Evil" once meant nothing more sinister than "uppity". But of course now most people agree that it means something much worse.. In a similar vein the world "gay" once meant "happy, merry, festive" now most people agree it means something completely different (and as a direct result - it does).

There are some arguments for which popular interpretation is a completely relevant factor - particularly with the meaning of words and methods of communication. In fact any kind of "truth" that is culturally relative depends almost entirely on popular opinion. Music theory is, for the most part, culturally relative. Of course there is still room for debate, discussion, and argument to foster new ideas and cultural change.

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Originally Posted by Morphogenesis26

@20Tigers:

I read both of your mode lessons linked in your sig and it got me thinking; the modes seem like a way to box in certain sounds together so that a person can find the vibe or feel he's looking for easily. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't, eventually, the person no longer need to categorize intervals and their relationships with each other like that once they understand how the intervals and keys themselves work?

It's not a shortcut. It's understanding what those terms mean and what they communicate to other musicians. So there is no point at which you would no longer "need" to categorize intervals that way. Once you know what they are and how they sound you know them. You can use them as a basis for musical composition if you want or as a way of analyzing music, or to understand and quickly relay specific information to other musicians.

Mode, in the widest sense of the word denotes the selection of tones, arranged in a scale, that form the basic tonal substance of a composition. As a result each mode has it's own unique sonority.

A key defines the tonal centre and by extension the relationship of all the notes in a composition to that tonal centre. In any given key a large number of modes are possible. Typically we refer to a key as being major or minor but those are not the only two options (as noted by Bernstein in one of my previous posts).

In a narrower sense of the term "modes" refers to the church modes (as described in the link in my sig) each of which is one possible mode within a given key.

The question comes down to what are we saying when we say something is in a specific key.

What does it mean to say something is in the key of A minor. Well according to the above this would mean that the key is A and the mode is minor. Specifically the minor scale* forms the basic tonal substance of the composition (note not necessarily the complete tonal substance of the composition). If it is in the key of A major then the key is A the mode is major which is the major scale.

This is not to say that the composition is limited to the use of the notes of those scales. The key of course defines the tonal centre and the relationships between it and the entire spectre of possible notes. What it says is that those are the notes that provide the piece with it's core sonic character.

Major and minor are by far the most common "modes". The church modes rarely come into play really, I can accept that. But they are out there and they do have something to offer, even if the most you get out of learning about them is being able to understand what someone is talking about when they use the terms**.

*the minor scale referring to the complete minor scale including the harmonic and melodic minor alterations

**At least when they use them correctly - i.e. not in reference to one of seven fretboard patterns of the same major scale
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Old 12-03-2012, 08:33 AM   #103
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i really wish you'd addressed this one instead of "no guize, trust me, i'm right on this one, trust me guize, lemme define stuff you already know then add this is 100% my opinion and that it's based on something you already said was right to a very limited extent but i really really really really need the last word guize"

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Originally Posted by pinguinpanic
Concidering you want the scales to be 7 note scales that include the chord tones of Am there are 1*1*1*9*8*7*6=3024 possible scales. I don't really see any reason to name all scales you could use.
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Old 12-03-2012, 09:00 AM   #104
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i really wish you'd addressed this one instead of "no guize, trust me, i'm right on this one, trust me guize, lemme define stuff you already know then add this is 100% my opinion and that it's based on something you already said was right to a very limited extent but i really really really really need the last word guize"the guy that asked you a specific question relating to something you wrote

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Old 12-03-2012, 10:28 AM   #105
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bro have you even been homeless
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:53 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
open mike jams


I lold.




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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
seriously, they allow for so much possibility that it's literally stupid for anyone to say that a piece in D dorian can use notes outside of the dorian scale -- otherwise, dorian would be a key.

but it's not, now, is it?


Minor 6ths can be used to avoid a tritone skip or outline and raised 7ths at cadences though.

/trolling
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:01 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by AeolianWolf
we don't say it's in D minor with a major 6th. we say it's in D minor. i might say it has a dorian feel, and that's if it never left the notes of the D dorian mode (but at that point, i could very well just say it's in D dorian [even though it would also be valid to say it's in D minor]). but i digress - if someone doesn't know the sound of a major subdominant chord in a minor key, then perhaps they should spend less time at open mike jams and more time practicing.


It takes beginner musicians time to know the sound of every chord relative to the tonic. The same beginners who need to learn to differentiate between the sounds offered by the different modes.

it's all well and good that from a formal theory standpoint every song with tonic D and tonic chord minor is in D minor, but for learning it helps to use the mode names to describe the musical variation on the natural major and natural minor scales that results from a different set of notes.

One more example, you can learn to like the sounds of an augmented fourth over a major chord, and connect that to the fourth degree of the harmonic scale, or you can learn to like the lydian sound and immediately understand how that corresponds to the harmonic scale. It just helps tie together a basic understanding of music.
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Old 12-03-2012, 06:29 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by bouttimeijoined
It takes beginner musicians time to know the sound of every chord relative to the tonic.


exactly why i said they should spend more time practicing.

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Originally Posted by bouttimeijoined
The same beginners who need to learn to differentiate between the sounds offered by the different modes.

it's all well and good that from a formal theory standpoint every song with tonic D and tonic chord minor is in D minor, but for learning it helps to use the mode names to describe the musical variation on the natural major and natural minor scales that results from a different set of notes.

One more example, you can learn to like the sounds of an augmented fourth over a major chord, and connect that to the fourth degree of the harmonic scale, or you can learn to like the lydian sound and immediately understand how that corresponds to the harmonic scale. It just helps tie together a basic understanding of music.


that's absolutely ridiculous. or you could listen to a simple 90-second mozart minuet in C major and hear the F# tonicize the dominant. boom, you've got the sound. nothing even remotely lydian involved.

it only helps to use the modes names if that's the way you've learned it. there are ways to get results much faster and with just as much accuracy, and the best is by listening to (and analyzing) tonal music.

you can get the damn miles.be ear trainer - it'll train your ear much more efficiently and without ever using a single modal reference.

modes are not (and should not be) material to be learned before an understanding of tonal music is acquired.

there's a reason why what you call "formal theory" exists. it's not so that we can play one thing and say "well it's something, but technically it's this other thing". that's pretentious. it exists because it's more efficient. it exists because it can take anything the modal theory system can throw at it. and the reverse simply is not true.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:05 PM   #109
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bro have you even been homeless

yes
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