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Old 11-15-2012, 10:11 PM   #161
ali.guitarkid7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabcd86
And I think Israel, as ever, had other options. Aside from anything else, I've read several times that there were serious peace negotiations ongoing until they blew up al-Jabari. It's all very well seeking to be balanced and fair and saying "well both sides have done wrong and I condemn blah blah" but end of the day, there's one side with far more strength and power, and, I'd argue, responsibility.

Yeah, Palestine was being considered for statehood (or just an upgraded status) at the end of this month, and the Palestinian PM was hoping that if their status were to upgrade then it'll help him open some roads to dialogue. There was actually lots of hopes for them at least upgrading their status by this month, so I very much doubt it was in Hamas's interests (the political party, not the random groups with weapons) to start another conflict.

This war sure seems to be doing some good for Israel, though. I doubt Palestine can get approved on the 29th.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:18 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by gabcd86
EDIT: I do see where you're coming from, though. A normal person would have put this edit afterwards, but I would rather this next lot didn't come off confrontational, and it probably will.

Nope, that's not what I'm saying at all. My point is that there are different standards for random little warbands of terrorists and states. I don't expect the random little groups of jihadists in Gaza to do anything else than **** around and be dicks, but I hope for more from a wealthy democratic state.

Palestine should be perceived as a state, yeah? That's what they really do deserve, what they're striving for, and what you're striving for. If they are attempting to represent a state, maybe there should be better conduct yeah?

What would you expect of a state with military might that was continually being subjected to terrorist acts towards their state? Of course there's going to be usage of force. They aren't just going to sit on their hands and allow terrorists to conduct themselves in a reckless and violent manner endangering Israelis. What other state would realistically conduct themselves in such a manner?

I'm not fucking pro Israel. But it's ridiculous to frame the discussion in such a manner that is blatantly insensitive to the reasonable thought process of the state of Israel. Replace the Palestinian terrorists with Mohawk terrorists and the state of Israel with Canada & America. Clearly they would be justified in using force and endangering the lives of many peoples in those nations because they don't have the same military might as the nations they are essentially waging war against for some misguided belief that doing so will grease the gears towards sovereignty. More importantly, clearly Canada & America would be in the wrong for using any sort of force towards these groups if it was a reasonable option to do so. Instead they should just try to hold their hands and just allow these things to go unchecked without a response.

I'm not fucking saying that all of the usages of force by Israel are justified or appropriate. I'm just saying that it's absolutely stupid to say that they are wrong for using force given the circumstances of the conflict.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:30 PM   #163
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What do you mean, "Palestine"? What is Palestine? Who is their government? Fatah, Hamas? The ones sending the rockets out are mostly splinter groups of militants - do they represent Palestinians? If someone chucked a rocket out of the USA into Canada, would it be justifiable for Canada to blow up Joe Biden?

On the other hand, when we say Israel, it's clear who we mean, and who the Israeli government represents and whose interests it is meant to be serving. And the continual bombardment of Gaza really doesn't seem to be doing Israelis much good, does it?

The reasonable thought process of Israel would, the way I see it, be, "Oh, neither we nor Hamas really wants a rerun of 2008, and look, there are credible moves towards a long-term ceasefire here. Let's pursue these." Not "Look, ceasefire moves. Send out the F-16s".

Greenwald is hit and miss, this is more of a hit, though mostly because of the links he provides to other articles on the subject.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:34 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabcd86
What do you mean, "Palestine"? What is Palestine? Who is their government? Fatah, Hamas? The ones sending the rockets out are mostly splinter groups of militants - do they represent Palestinians? If someone chucked a rocket out of the USA into Canada, would it be justifiable for Canada to blow up Joe Biden?

On the other hand, when we say Israel, it's clear who we mean, and who the Israeli government represents and whose interests it is meant to be serving. And the continual bombardment of Gaza really doesn't seem to be doing Israelis much good, does it?

The reasonable thought process of Israel would, the way I see it, be, "Oh, neither we nor Hamas really wants a rerun of 2008, and look, there are credible moves towards a long-term ceasefire here. Let's pursue these." Not "Look, ceasefire moves. Send out the F-16s".

Greenwald is hit and miss, this is more of a hit, though mostly because of the links he provides to other articles on the subject.


I agree to the majority of this, but I think Israel does want a return to 2008. If they didn't, why would they act in a way that is so disproportional?
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:35 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gabcd86
What do you mean, "Palestine"? What is Palestine? Who is their government? Fatah, Hamas? The ones sending the rockets out are mostly splinter groups of militants - do they represent Palestinians? If someone chucked a rocket out of the USA into Canada, would it be justifiable for Canada to blow up Joe Biden?

On the other hand, when we say Israel, it's clear who we mean, and who the Israeli government represents and whose interests it is meant to be serving. And the continual bombardment of Gaza really doesn't seem to be doing Israelis much good, does it?

The reasonable thought process of Israel would, the way I see it, be, "Oh, neither we nor Hamas really wants a rerun of 2008, and look, there are credible moves towards a long-term ceasefire here. Let's pursue these." Not "Look, ceasefire moves. Send out the F-16s".

Greenwald is hit and miss, this is more of a hit, though mostly because of the links he provides to other articles on the subject.

I mean the first point to the extent that they aren't justified whatsoever in their actions and their violent conduct is harmful rather than beneficial to their cause and is therefore stupid.

The rest of your post doesn't legitimately address a single point I brought up. Not going to waste my time. I wasn't looking for a babbys first leftism lesson.
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:38 PM   #166
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Wow I had no idea how bad this was until reading that this could lead to an all out war.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...aza-border?lite
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:59 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Thrashtastic15
I mean the first point to the extent that they aren't justified whatsoever in their actions and their violent conduct is harmful rather than beneficial to their cause and is therefore stupid.

The rest of your post doesn't legitimately address a single point I brought up. Not going to waste my time. I wasn't looking for a babbys first leftism lesson.


Oh man, you just should take this shit to the Controversial Opinions thread. Islamic Jihad are an illegitimate actor who aren't doing much good for the people of Gaza. WHO SAW THAT ONE COMING?
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Old 11-15-2012, 10:59 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by gabcd86
Wow, we went a whole four pages without a snide Dreadnought comment. Must be a record.


Ya my bad, caught this one kinda late
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