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Old 03-24-2013, 03:20 AM   #1
RickNPHX
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Is Adding Sealed Cab to Combo Effective?

I play jazzy standards, rock, pop, variety. I use a 197? Gibson SG with the original HH. Amp Fender DeVille 60 watt 2x12". I use Boss ME-30 to smooth it out with comp, EQ's, Echo, plus overdrive, and Boss supertube overdrive. It's not mic'd. Room size is usually 300 people or less. Sometimes outside patios w 300 people. Fender DeVille is not projecting low-end tone out in room or outdoor 300 person area. Tone spreads out on stage (good), but doesn't get low end out in room (bad). So, too much highs in audience, no real tone (REAL BAD). I MUST cut back highs on my PU, AND amp, and get more bottom out front. I'm thinking several options. 1.) add 1 Band Master 212 cab 2.) Add 1 VK 212 B Cab 3.) add 1 Supersonic 60 212 cab 4.) add 1 4x12 cab or add 2 small sealed 12" or 15"woofers under the DeVille, angled to far left and right of the audience (this is my preference) 5.) Or finally, go to a band that can/will mic guitar amp PROPERLY. Money/portability is DEFINITELY an object for me. BUT I'm not going to add ANYTHING if it doesn't DRASTICALLY IMPROVE the sound out in audience. And, at age 58, I'm going to give up playing if i can't get the sound i want OUT IN THE ROOM as well as onstage. Will a 2x12" sealed cab REALLY project low-end tone out to audience, or really be just a waste of money - in your experience? Also, would PA woofers tend to blow? Many, Many Thanks in advance - Richard
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:37 AM   #2
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Sealed cab changes the bass and projection. I think it helps tighten the low end but let a few others chime in. I only have jam room experience with this, not in a club or open setting.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:50 AM   #3
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Stick a mic in front of the amp. What the **** are you doing, man? FoH is the PA's job.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:30 AM   #4
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What to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathbard
Stick a mic in front of the amp. What the **** are you doing, man? FoH is the PA's job.


I'll second that.

There's no way a jazzy / rock / pop man needs more than a 60W 2 x12 combo on stage. The problem (if there is one) must me elsewhere. Have you taken a very long lead and wondered around a venue to listen to yourself or is this tone stuff someone else's opinion?

Regardless, if this is what you want, another cab, e.g. a closed back 2 x 12 with the Fender on top of it will project more, will give you a bit more bass BUT will be more directional so a second cab might be better pointing in a different direction, or 2 off 1x12s pointing left and right, as one of your options, depending on the venue shape. These should be largish cabs and could have reflex ports for more bass.

PA woofers will not blow but are unsuitable for this application. Use guitar speakers.

One thing you should consider is using less overdrive / distortion since this always adds higher frequency harmonics to a sound, another thing that comes to mind, seeing as you mention micing - is this being done properly. If the PA guy is just hanging a mic down the front of the cab instead of using a proper stand this will tend to sound weak and toppy too.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:35 AM   #5
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Yeah, what's going on with sound tech there? That should do the job.

Otherwise, if you're thinking of getting your low end back, you should also think about which speaker/s you should have in your cab. Look around for those than can go low so that they bring out the low end.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickNPHX
I play jazzy standards, rock, pop, variety. I use a 197? Gibson SG with the original HH. Amp Fender DeVille 60 watt 2x12". I use Boss ME-30 to smooth it out with comp, EQ's, Echo, plus overdrive, and Boss supertube overdrive. It's not mic'd. Room size is usually 300 people or less. Sometimes outside patios w 300 people. Fender DeVille is not projecting low-end tone out in room or outdoor 300 person area.


i really don't know much about your playing situation, but you normally don't use 'stage volume' at gigs that big.

the normal approach is to have all the instruments sent to a FOH PA and a sound guy mixes it. this is for very practical reasons, mainly because you are on stage performing and usually don't know what the audience is actually hearing and he would have tools to 'fix' problems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickNPHX
I MUST cut back highs on my PU, AND amp, and get more bottom out front. I'm thinking several options. 1.) add 1 Band Master 212 cab 2.) Add 1 VK 212 B Cab 3.) add 1 Supersonic 60 212 cab 4.) add 1 4x12 cab or add 2 small sealed 12" or 15"woofers under the DeVille, angled to far left and right of the audience (this is my preference) 5.) Or finally, go to a band that can/will mic guitar amp PROPERLY. Money/portability is DEFINITELY an object for me.


any closed back should add more low end (the more speakers the better, http://profile.ultimate-guitar.com/...us/blog/110903/ ), unfortunately closed back cabinets are more directional (it won't disperse through the room as easily as the open back cab will). if you are just mainly after low end though, then longer wave lengths are less directional than high frequency notes.

basically i'd run some closed back cab. i'd go to guitar center or something and try out a bunch of cabs to find which cab gives the low end i want. different cab dimensions and speakers will have some cabs sound more low-end heavy than others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RickNPHX
BUT I'm not going to add ANYTHING if it doesn't DRASTICALLY IMPROVE the sound out in audience. And, at age 58, I'm going to give up playing if i can't get the sound i want OUT IN THE ROOM as well as onstage. Will a 2x12" sealed cab REALLY project low-end tone out to audience, or really be just a waste of money - in your experience? Also, would PA woofers tend to blow? Many, Many Thanks in advance - Richard


i wouldn't really know if a CB 2x12 will solve your problems, no one does. but i am with most people on here that say: "What you really need is a PA".
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:42 PM   #7
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Adding a second cab will improve bass. It doesn't even have to be a closed back cab... just having the additional speakers will increase bottom end. It helps if you set the cabs side by side instead of on top of each other since you'll get more acoustic coupling with the stage.

One thing I will ask is if you've stood out in the audience area and listened to how your amp sounds from their point of view? The reason I ask this is because a lot of people dial their combo in with it pointing at their feet... so they dial in way too much top end, which makes the amp sound thin and icepicky from the audience's point of view. I tilt my combos back so that the speaker is angled more at my head. It lets me hear the amp better while keeping the treble more moderate.

That said, adding an extra cab won't help that much in an outdoor venue. I have limited experience with playing outside, but in that limited experience being outside has always swallowed up the bottom end. It's not quite as bad if you can get a reflective wall behind you (like a patio wall or fence), but if you're out in the open then there's not much that can be done. I've used 100w fullstacks outdoors and all I hear is midrange.

Here's my little dragon slayer. The top cab is the same cab as the open back combo version of this amp and the bottom cab is a closed back/front ported. Both have the same speaker (MC90), yet the top cab projects more midrange and fills the room while the bottom cab projects more highs and lows will producing a bit of thump. The results are still fairly midrange heavy when compared to a closed back 2x12 or 4x12, but it gets the job done (and low end is the bassist's job).

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Old 03-24-2013, 01:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by some_dude_2
Adding a second cab will improve bass. It doesn't even have to be a closed back cab... just having the additional speakers will increase bottom end.


there is some truth to what you are saying, but open back cabs cancel out low end signal because of the limited baffling provided by OB cabs.

if the effect that is desired is 'more low-end', then a OB cab actually works against your goals.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:20 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gumbilicious
there is some truth to what you are saying, but open back cabs cancel out low end signal because of the limited baffling provided by OB cabs.

if the effect that is desired is 'more low-end', then a OB cab actually works against your goals.


Two open back cabs will produce more bottom end than one open back cab.

That's what I'm getting at.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:45 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by some_dude_2
Two open back cabs will produce more bottom end than one open back cab.

That's what I'm getting at.


this may be the case, but it is situational

here is the deal, you are having to consider two effects:

1) mutual coupling:

this is the effect that gives more low end to a setup with more speakers. it pretty much says that you can treat two speakers vibrating the same way as one bigger speaker. but there are limitations.

speakers in a setup interfere with one another (constructively and destructively). the more speakers you add, the more low end in an ideal situation. unfortunately speakers have to be physically separated from one another and this causes some destructive interference. also, the more speakers you add, the further apart the speakers become the less low end boost they get.

Quote:
So we can safely say that doubling speakers only has a benefit in the low end frequencies.

Now let's take the same math to a 4x12, since the speaker centers have to match for all 4 speakers, this means that the furthest centers are to be used for that calculation. So for a 4x12, we are talking about 300Hz or less being a realistic region for speaker coupling gain.

Adding another 4x12 stacked on top, would mean that the very top left speaker and very bottom right speaker is now the new length to use for the formula to work, which means roughly 50-60inches in distance. At this point the only frequency range getting advantage is ~100hz and below. So there is still an advantage, but the window closes quickly as you add distance to the speakers.




so the more speakers you add, the smaller the window for the low end boost. if you add enough speakers (or the distance from the speakers is increased in some way), then the cutoff frequency may become incredibly low. in an open back cab, this low end boost can completely disappear due to:

2) Limited Baffling

speakers need a cabinet for full range frequency operation. without a cab, wavelengths of sound longer than the speaker cone will cancel one another out (the low end freq will negate one another). there is basically a limitation of how much low end a speaker can produce based on the baffling provided for the speaker.

closed back cabs don't let the sound from behind the speaker interfere with sound from the front of the speaker, so there is no cancellation.

this is why i am hesitant to agree that 'more open back cabs give more low end'. it wouldn't be hard to produce an open back cab setup that can completely cancel out it's low end boost.
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Last edited by gumbilicious : 03-24-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 03-25-2013, 12:01 AM   #11
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It also wouldn't be hard for you to put away your calculator and experience these things for yourself.
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Old 03-25-2013, 01:26 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by some_dude_2
It also wouldn't be hard for you to put away your calculator and experience these things for yourself.


i thought you may care to know my reasoning.

i do crawl out from behind my mountain of calculators and books to play guitar every once in a while.

tbh, i actually spend a stupid redic amount of time of recording, writing, editing, producing and listening to my music. many people do believe i am just a book worm rather than a guitar player though.

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:16 AM   #13
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It's still a moot point. You choose the speakers to get the best sound and then let the PA get it to the audience. Even running a big halfstack you stick a mic in front of it. The PA is going to do a better job of distributing sound than an amp on a stage. This is all a wee bit silly.
I like to be able to hear myself over the drummer directly off the amp but that's as loud as it has to be (feedback considerations withstanding). You've gotta have a PA for the vocals - use the bloody thing.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:36 AM   #14
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Very good analysis by ALL. I really appreciate your take on it, and your responses. Mic'd amps is of course by far my preference. On the other hand, I'm really tired of relying on guys that won't mic my amp properly, or won't bother to bring big enough speakers (tho they have them) to support the sound, and I step out in the room and hear too much highs not enough bottom. 3 WONDERFUL sounding notes are FAR better than all kinds of tinty notes. One other thought tho. I have a "Redbox" from years ago. Anybody know of a particularly good in-line(between amp and speaker) device to direct line to PA? Do you have an opinion on the "Redbox"? Many Thanks, Richard

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Old 03-25-2013, 02:42 AM   #15
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What you need is your own sound guy. That's what I've always done. Throw him 10% of the take and insist on using him for the actual mixing of the band. Take control of your sound. Use your own mike and make sure it is used properly. Don't rely on strangers.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathbard
What you need is your own sound guy. That's what I've always done. Throw him 10% of the take and insist on using him for the actual mixing of the band. Take control of your sound. Use your own mike and make sure it is used properly. Don't rely on strangers.

This, I've been to many a show where the sound guy does a shit job just because he doesn't care. The most recent one he completely mixed out the vocals and had the bass overpowering the guitar to the point where the guitar was drowned out aswell.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:14 PM   #17
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One of the additional downsides of being an old musician, is everybody becomes incredibly lazy. - thanks again for your feedback. Richard
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:18 PM   #18
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I'm not that much younger than you (50 later this year) and I've found a sound guy.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:28 AM   #19
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Truth is, I really to get with better musicians and a decent sound man. I'll have to heal up from tennis elbow first. These guys are friends of mine, and I've been reluctant to relocate a long time. Thanks for your helpful feedback. - R
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:31 AM   #20
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Yeah, it really does sound to me like this is a personnel issue more than an equipment one.
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