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Old 02-01-2013, 09:10 PM   #21
KG6_Steven
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Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
Yep, I think so - and they laugh at all the noobs with their trains with engines that aren't made of a metal so don't deliver


Seriously though, I'm sure you were just imagining the lack of latency with your device


So you don't realise that the RAM in your computer runs software instruments and plug-ins, in your DAW? Your computer doesn't open the plug-in, send the signal to the interface for processing, then back to the computer again to record the information (if routing to another track) and finally through the main output track back to the interface and then through D/A conversion to the interface output...

DSP for your UAD stuff is there because Universal Audio want to tie their plug-ins to hardware (reduces the likelihood of piracy) and the DSP takes the strain off your computer's RAM.

Why do you think when you open up a soft synth and load up some samples many of them have a readout at the bottom detailing how much RAM is being used? Even if the interface had to do some stage in between, the RAM would still dictate far more of the overall latency for plug-ins and soft-synths. The interface, when mixing, plays back the sound... it doesn't calculate all the stuff done in your DAW, or else you'd need a 40+ channel interface just to mix a session with that many tracks.



To be honest, all interfaces connecting to a computer are going to have some lag. Tascam used a bit of a trick to get rid of latency. And it worked quite well. I replaced the US-2000 with a Presonus 16.4.2, which uses Firewire. I'm also impressed with its performance. For what I'm doing, I've had no problems.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:10 PM   #22
DisarmGoliath
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Well lets put it like this... i work in a pro audio setting i guess. I never came across a big studio that would use USB over a PCI card. Usb is a step in between, most people, especially ppl who do movie music for instance, they dont want a step in between. Most of theire projects are 50 tracks + and every track has at least 10 effects. As far as i know, an USB device wont cut that.

If i'm wrong... im indeed not up to date.

Yeah, I know that a lot of pro studios still use PCI/PCIe but that is because it's sort of stuck with that format - if professional level companies bring out a new generation of their products and it is a format the pro studios don't use, they'll sell badly. And if the pro studios change to a different format, they won't be able to use their favourite gear.

It's partly why Pro Tools HD has taken so long to offer a 'native' option, where you can use the computer to do your DSP instead of the dedicated Pro Tools DSP cards. Nowadays computers are far more powerful, and able to do all the DSP for the average pro-level project (my 2008 iMac can run projects with 30-40 tracks still, and that only has 2GB RAM... I'm about to upgrade to a system with 16GB RAM, because I'm only just at the point where my computer is too slow to work at the level I need).


But yeah, I think you're misunderstanding what the audio interfaces are doing - they aren't responsible for the VST instruments or plug-ins. All the interface has to do is take incoming audio and convert it to a system the computer can work with, and then when the computer has done everything, the audio interface converts the computer signal to an analogue audio signal again and outputs it to your monitors. And because of this, USB is easily capable of running around 8 channels of audio.

And the new USB 3.0 standard is starting to end up on all the entry level computers now, which means that most interfaces have the option of moving to USB 3.0 if they ever thought USB 2.0 was too slow.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
Yeah, I know that a lot of pro studios still use PCI/PCIe but that is because it's sort of stuck with that format - if professional level companies bring out a new generation of their products and it is a format the pro studios don't use, they'll sell badly. And if the pro studios change to a different format, they won't be able to use their favourite gear.

It's partly why Pro Tools HD has taken so long to offer a 'native' option, where you can use the computer to do your DSP instead of the dedicated Pro Tools DSP cards. Nowadays computers are far more powerful, and able to do all the DSP for the average pro-level project (my 2008 iMac can run projects with 30-40 tracks still, and that only has 2GB RAM... I'm about to upgrade to a system with 16GB RAM, because I'm only just at the point where my computer is too slow to work at the level I need).


But yeah, I think you're misunderstanding what the audio interfaces are doing - they aren't responsible for the VST instruments or plug-ins. All the interface has to do is take incoming audio and convert it to a system the computer can work with, and then when the computer has done everything, the audio interface converts the computer signal to an analogue audio signal again and outputs it to your monitors. And because of this, USB is easily capable of running around 8 channels of audio.

And the new USB 3.0 standard is starting to end up on all the entry level computers now, which means that most interfaces have the option of moving to USB 3.0 if they ever thought USB 2.0 was too slow.

As far as i know,,, but well i'm 30 years in the business now. DSP is taking a lot of hard work away from your CPU, so if you have a DSP card, you leave space for the CPU to compute the DAW stuff. Thats how i learned it back in the days. I generally work with pro tools environments so yes... thats no usb there. I still find it hard to believe it can manifest the same outcome...

I would like to believe you, but my next client i will not sell an USB soundcard...

In fact i probably move to an Uad system really soon

Last edited by B&J : 02-01-2013 at 09:18 PM.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:20 PM   #24
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As far as i know,,, but well i'm 30 years in the business now. DSP is taking a lot of hard work away from your CPU, so if you have a DSP card, you leave space for the CPU to compute the DAW stuff. Thats how i learned it back in the days. I generally work with pro tools environments so yes... thats no usb there. I still find it hard to believe it can manifest the same outcome...

I would like to believe you, but my next client i will not sell an USB soundcard...

Well, could you get professional results from a Pro Tools HD setup 5 years ago? The computers available for $500-750 these days have more processing power than the DSP in several of the old Pro Tools HD systems from 5 years ago.

If you could get a great mix back then with DSP, why can't you get a great mix now with the same (or more) power done in-the-box with your computer instead?
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by DisarmGoliath
Well, could you get professional results from a Pro Tools HD setup 5 years ago? The computers available for $500-750 these days have more processing power than the DSP in several of the old Pro Tools HD systems from 5 years ago.

If you could get a great mix back then with DSP, why can't you get a great mix now with the same (or more) power done in-the-box with your computer instead?

Because USB is not as direct.... It takes a cable... if it runs directly in a computer its always better. At least thats how we work... lol i guess i'm one of the oldbies. I'm used to using a neve console, and for the record.... that didnt run on usb In fact i still run a neve in my studio

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Old 02-01-2013, 09:30 PM   #26
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Because USB is not as direct.... It takes a cable... if it runs directly in a computer its always better. At least thats how we work... lol i guess i'm one of the oldbies. I'm used to using a neve console, and for the record.... that didnt run on usb

Yeah, but do you know how long it takes the signal to travel along the cable? You probably couldn't even press start and stop on a stopwatch fast enough to calculate the time it would take to pass a signal from a USB cable the length of your road.

You can still use a console going into a USB interface and an interface is no different to using dedicated mic preamps, going into a dedicated A/D converter with FireWire or USB connectivity.

In time, technology moves forward very fast these days, and what computers couldn't do when Pro Tools first came around is long gone - these days you have more processing power in the smartphone in your pocket, than they had for the entire Apollo moon landing mission. Surely you can see that at some point computers won't need dedicated DSP cards (which are just extra parts of a computer anyway) to do professional work, even if you don't accept that that time has already happened?
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:36 PM   #27
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Yeah, but do you know how long it takes the signal to travel along the cable? You probably couldn't even press start and stop on a stopwatch fast enough to calculate the time it would take to pass a signal from a USB cable the length of your road.

You can still use a console going into a USB interface and an interface is no different to using dedicated mic preamps, going into a dedicated A/D converter with FireWire or USB connectivity.

In time, technology moves forward very fast these days, and what computers couldn't do when Pro Tools first came around is long gone - these days you have more processing power in the smartphone in your pocket, than they had for the entire Apollo moon landing mission. Surely you can see that at some point computers won't need dedicated DSP cards (which are just extra parts of a computer anyway) to do professional work, even if you don't accept that that time has already happened?

Maybe... still most studio owners i meet do not want usb stuff but pci. I guess all the new cats start using usb and stuff, but we dont use it. I have been to most every major recording studio in Europe to set things up, and most of them are using old consoles.... thats for a reason. But now i'm completly off topic and talking sound.

I just havent met anyone in the pro user community who likes usb.... cant help it.
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Old 02-01-2013, 09:42 PM   #28
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Ok, well - you know VST plug-ins aren't supported by Pro Tools HD... and Waves and all the other major plug-in brands (excluding Universal Audio) release their plug-ins as VST's too... so if you aren't using DSP cards to run those plug-ins, why would Waves etc. release those plug-ins as VST's too, because surely they wouldn't want to release a bad product? And surely everybody would be complaining, if Waves plug-ins sounded different or didn't work the same on Pro Tools systems, as on normal computer systems with audio interfaces?


If this doesn't convince you, I'm afraid I'll just say we agree to disagree, because I can't think of anything else to say. Seriously though, you should allow yourself to take a look at the modern technology that you probably even sell, and see how it is perfectly capable of releasing professional standard records.
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Old 02-02-2013, 12:28 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by B&J
Well lets put it like this... i work in a pro audio setting i guess. I never came across a big studio that would use USB over a PCI card. Usb is a step in between, most people, especially ppl who do movie music for instance, they dont want a step in between. Most of theire projects are 50 tracks + and every track has at least 10 effects. As far as i know, an USB device wont cut that.

If i'm wrong... im indeed not up to date.

Then you are not up to date. I currently have a project on my computer, there's just under 60 REAPER tracks in it (all tracks in reaper are the same so some are folders, some have actual audio, some are virtual instruments). I have full VST drums, guitars, bass, piano, and synth on there, with some combination amp sims, equalisers, compressors, limiters, etc. on most tracks. And I can guarantee you that my interface has a zero effect on the number of tracks and plugins I have running. How? because my interface (if you can even call my DigiTech BP355s USB output an interface) is on the other side of the room, the power brick for it is still in my gig bag, and the USB cable for it is currently being used to connect an external DVD drive to my ultrabook. In other words, I am running all these synths with no interface whatsoever.

Some expensive software may include a hardware component but as a software engineering student I can tell you that unless the plugin is specifically designed to take advantage of processing power or memory that may be stored somewhere else (e.g. a PCIe card) then it is only going to be affected by the hard drive, CPU, and RAM. In those cases then yes a PCIe card will be superior to USB, but certainly not for anyone who hasn't spent a lot of money on a synth that takes advantage of something like that.
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Old 02-02-2013, 01:13 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by B&J
Maybe... still most studio owners i meet do not want usb stuff but pci. I guess all the new cats start using usb and stuff, but we dont use it. I have been to most every major recording studio in Europe to set things up, and most of them are using old consoles.... thats for a reason. But now i'm completly off topic and talking sound.

I just havent met anyone in the pro user community who likes usb.... cant help it.


Once again, you're talking Pro Studios when 99% of us aren't Pro Studios, we're home studios/beginners. Not everyone has $10,000 to dump into a Pro Tools HDX system to start on. Hell, even an RME PCI Express setup starts at $550 for the card and you've still gotta buy pres & such. So, unless you buy a Behringer ADA8000, you're looking at over $1000 just to get started with a PCI setup. Considering the average beginner here doesn't want to even spend $60 on Reaper, $1000 is way too much for a beginner.

A good majority of your arguments hold up, don't get me wrong. There's no way a pro studio would be using a $300 USB interface. The problem is, you're suggesting getting a Ferrari for a first car when in all reality, he needs a Honda Civic.
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