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Old 11-07-2013, 11:09 PM   #41
bradulator
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Hope he brought some purell cuz EW
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:16 AM   #42
progdude93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradulator
I was pretty clear. If you're going to have sex in a place where you have a good chance of getting aids, it's your fault.


I'm not trying to absolve them of any responsibility, but what business does the leader of a religion have blocking a shipment of something that would save lives? Also, I'd agree more if the people were having sex with people they knew had it. They have some responsibility for taking risks, sure, but I doubt they're properly educated on all the risks. Condoms would at least have a very positive impact. But the church believes in preventing sexual education in general.

The religious leaders in Nigeria blocked America from giving their people the polio vaccine. And even though polio is obviously not the result of voluntary behavior, they still prevented something that would have prevented needless harm because of religious reasons (they thought it was a western ploy to gain influence in the region and kill their religious values).
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:39 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradulator
I was pretty clear. If you're going to have sex in a place where you have a good chance of getting aids, it's your fault.


so if they get married and shit like good christians it's still their fault.

and yah know, people just get horny sometimes. it's human instinct. what the fuck else are you supposed to do when you live in a shithole?

i know, they can just browse the UG forums and... oh wait.

but really, try not jerking it for about a month and tell me how that goes. or more on point, don't have sex for the rest of your life.
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Old 11-08-2013, 04:57 AM   #44
I.O.T.M
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Quote:
Originally Posted by progdude93
what they do with their wealth is irrelevant. especially considering how incredibly wealthy the vatican is.

So all the hospitals and schools, etc. that the Catholic Church runs worldwide are irrelevant because they're rich?

Quote:
Originally Posted by progdude93
but yeah, they're helping the spread of AIDS. i don't know if you've had sex, but using condoms is pretty easy. you put it on, you stick your penis in a vagina or butthole, you pull partially out, and then you start all over from step 2 as many times as necessary until the job is done.

yeah, some people who aren't given sexual education might think double bagging is beneficial rather than detrimental. but it's still better than straight rawdogging.

I'm not saying that they're difficult to use, I'm saying that you still need to show people how to use them properly; hence why we have sexual education classes in the west that involve embarrassing banana demonstrations. They also aren't 100% effective, so having sex with people you don't know is still taking a massive risk in areas with high AIDS rates.

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Originally Posted by progdude93
also, THEY'RE ALREADY ENGAGING IN SEXUAL BEHAVIOR THAT COULD RESULT IN AIDS! THAT'S WHY ~25% OF THE GODDAMN POPULATION IS BEING RAVAGED BY IT! 69% (it's a ****ing joke) of the world's HIV/AIDS victims are in Africa.

The problem is already incredibly severe, and abstinence is an idea that's been around for ****ing forever. It doesn't ****ing work. Sex is one of the few things that makes life worth living for people in war zones living in abject poverty. And you're defending taking it away from them instead of giving them condoms so they can do it safely?!

You're implying that behaviour can't be changed through education. Most reports on the lowering rates of AIDS in Uganda praise both the usage of condoms and the Catholic Church's role in raising AIDS awareness, promoting responsible sexual behaviour, and assisting both financially and medically with AIDS patients. I'm not going to deny that condoms are helpful in the fight against AIDS, but they aren't the only option.

Also stop emoting; I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. I'm not suggesting that we ban people from engaging in risky sexual acts, but that people should make responsible decisions. Having a one night stand in Uganda is completely different to having a one night stand in the UK or the USA. The risk much, much higher in sub-saharan Africa. As you rightly pointed out, the people in these countries have suffered from war and poverty, we don't want them to also suffer from AIDS as a result of a meaningless sexual encounter.

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Originally Posted by progdude93
Yeah, a condom is not 100% effective. But it's really ****ing effective. The Catholic church's position has NO legitimacy. Especially since it's based on moral self-importance.

Seriously. Preventing something that would save lives just because it doesn't fit your moral standards. It's not even like they're "indecent." They may contribute to a culture Catholics don't approve of, but the only reason they're wrong is because god said so. And you dare defend causing irreparable harm to countless people on the basis of an imaginary man in the sky saying so? lol

I'm not trying to say shit like "religion is evil," because there are plenty of religious people who wouldn't dare force things like this on people. But this shit is evil.

The Catholic Church's position does have legitimacy, though. I don't fully agree with them as I think that supplying condoms would also help, but you can't deny that educating people of the risks of promiscuity is helpful.

About the God thing: people can come to correct conclusion based on faulty premises; I believe, in this instance, that the Church has come to a semi-correct conclusion that is, unfortunately, limited by their insistence on Natural Law (but I won't go into that).



This part isn't a response to progdude93: It is incredibly easy to hate the Catholic Church without basis and spout nonsense that people wouldn't dare say were they discussing Judaism or Islam. As a non-Catholic, the facts suggest to me that the Church isn't evil, just flawed as it is made up of 2 billion people, and people, as we all know, are flawed. I firmly believe that the lack of objectivity when assessing the Catholic Church is a result of the anti-Catholic bigotry that has been so present in the UK and in the US.
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Old 11-08-2013, 12:29 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Owenlee55
He may be an alright guy, but he's the head of the Catholic church, possibly one of the most corrupt institutions in the world, which doesn't think twice about helping pedophiles hid from the law, helping the spread of aids (Claiming condoms increase risk of aids, in Africa) and one that preaches giving yet is probably richer than some countries.


http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/08/sport....html?hpt=hp_c3

This is why the pope says Africans shouldn't be using condoms, they don't know that they go on your dick.

They think that you use them to play...Soccer?

It all makes sense now.
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Old 11-09-2013, 04:08 AM   #46
progdude93
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Originally Posted by I.O.T.M
So all the hospitals and schools, etc. that the Catholic Church runs worldwide are irrelevant because they're rich?


Not irrelevant to the world. I'm not denying that they do any good. It's not relevant to this discussion, or any discussion on the goodness of the church considering that they're handed money by their patrons and stockpile the shit out of it and have massive stockpiles of cash, jewelry, art, and priceless goods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.O.T.M
I'm not saying that they're difficult to use, I'm saying that you still need to show people how to use them properly; hence why we have sexual education classes in the west that involve embarrassing banana demonstrations. They also aren't 100% effective, so having sex with people you don't know is still taking a massive risk in areas with high AIDS rates.


they're like 99% effective. the statistics indicate that they're lower, but the statistics are compiled as the odds of contracting an STD (or child, which I guess counts ) over the course of a year rather than a single use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.O.T.M
You're implying that behaviour can't be changed through education. Most reports on the lowering rates of AIDS in Uganda praise both the usage of condoms and the Catholic Church's role in raising AIDS awareness, promoting responsible sexual behaviour, and assisting both financially and medically with AIDS patients. I'm not going to deny that condoms are helpful in the fight against AIDS, but they aren't the only option.


They're the only option for people with AIDS who want to have sex with consenting partners. I believe it was Dregen in this thread who brought up married people as an example. If a married couple wants to **** but one of them has AIDS, then what are they supposed to do?

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.O.T.M
Also stop emoting; I'm not trying to take anything away from anyone. I'm not suggesting that we ban people from engaging in risky sexual acts, but that people should make responsible decisions. Having a one night stand in Uganda is completely different to having a one night stand in the UK or the USA. The risk much, much higher in sub-saharan Africa. As you rightly pointed out, the people in these countries have suffered from war and poverty, we don't want them to also suffer from AIDS as a result of a meaningless sexual encounter.


I'm not emoting. I'm being perfectly reasonable. You're not suggesting banning sexual acts, but you're defending an act that removed sexual acts as a possibility without strong odds of extremely adverse consequences.

They suffer from war and poverty. Their lives are bad enough as is without being able to have sex. It might be meaningless to you, but you don't get to determine what has meaning for anyone else. You don't get to protect them from themselves like this. Let them do as they will. Educate them, inform them, but let them act as they will if they harm nobody but themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I.O.T.M
The Catholic Church's position does have legitimacy, though. I don't fully agree with them as I think that supplying condoms would also help, but you can't deny that educating people of the risks of promiscuity is helpful.

About the God thing: people can come to correct conclusion based on faulty premises; I believe, in this instance, that the Church has come to a semi-correct conclusion that is, unfortunately, limited by their insistence on Natural Law (but I won't go into that).


I'm rarely, if ever, against education. But you're not talking about education. You're talking about education in place of condoms. But there could have been both.

And you can come to a correct conclusion based on faulty premises. Your argument would be wrong, but the conclusion could be right. However, their conclusion is still wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by I.O.T.M
This part isn't a response to progdude93: It is incredibly easy to hate the Catholic Church without basis and spout nonsense that people wouldn't dare say were they discussing Judaism or Islam. As a non-Catholic, the facts suggest to me that the Church isn't evil, just flawed as it is made up of 2 billion people, and people, as we all know, are flawed. I firmly believe that the lack of objectivity when assessing the Catholic Church is a result of the anti-Catholic bigotry that has been so present in the UK and in the US.


Judaism has some downright evil aspects. When it comes to divorce, the man has ultimate power. If he doesn't give his wife a divorce when she asks for it, it doesn't happen. However, there are people who will beat the shit out of this man and force him to do it. This is religion enabling awful, evil acts. Islam gets way more hate than Christianity, and if you don't see that then I don't know what planet you're on. And Jews have gotten way more hate, though not as much recently.

So I don't know how you're acting as though you poor catholics are victims here.

Any "bigotry" aimed at the Catholic church is simply the world catching up. Sure there are some jackasses who make overly broad generalizations and act like militant atheists. But to say there's real anti-Catholic bigotry is just ridiculous. Catholicism is the primary religion in the Western world that has significant and decidedly tangible influence. It's not just indirect, impacting value systems and influencing actions. It's a specific force aimed at a specific goal: making the world a more catholic place. Maybe the new pope is changing things up. I don't want to make too much out of history, but we can't conclude much from a few words from the current pope's mouth. Especially since corrupt bastards are usually the most convincing.
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