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Old 02-02-2013, 02:49 AM   #21
Hail
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
I have a degree. Does that help?

...

Actually probably not because it's in philosophy.


i laughed a little too hard at this
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Old 02-02-2013, 02:57 AM   #22
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^^ Ditto
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:10 AM   #23
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There are 12 different tones in 12TET, but every note in this system has at least one enharmonic note. There are not, and never have been, 17 different scale degrees in 12TET.
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat
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Old 02-05-2013, 03:41 AM   #24
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Angusman60, I thank you for your eye-opening analysis!
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Old 02-05-2013, 06:28 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleepy__Head
There are 12 different tones in 12TET, but every note in this system has at least one enharmonic note. There are not, and never have been, 17 different scale degrees in 12TET.


I'm counting all the standard usage sharps and flats of each scale degree. #2 and b3 are functionally distinct.

Last edited by cdgraves : 02-05-2013 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 02-06-2013, 04:40 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by cdgraves
I'm counting all the standard usage sharps and flats of each scale degree. #2 and b3 are functionally distinct.

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Old 02-06-2013, 07:28 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdgraves
I'm counting all the standard usage sharps and flats of each scale degree. #2 and b3 are functionally distinct.


And I'm counting the distinct tones.

It - I say again - is called 12TET because the scale's divided into 12 equal parts. There are 12 tones and no more.

Sure the context of each tone determines its function (and sometimes its name) but that doesn't mean there are more tones.

"More functions and/or more names = more tones" is like saying "When I call you Bill you actually become two distinct people - cdgraves and Bill".
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oh shut up with that /mu/ bullshit. fidget house shouldn't even be a genre, why in the world would it deserve its own subgenres you twat

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Old 02-06-2013, 07:42 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aukikco
Looking for tools (software, websites etc) to make it a bit easier. Not just theory but a program where I could type in chords and it would suggest possible degree solutions. (Or some other genius idea that I haven't thought of.)

Suggestions?

Yet another lazy fucking noob.
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:57 PM   #29
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Yet another lazy fucking noob.

Yeah, if you call trying to learn something, and making use of a program/a person whose knowledge exceeds mine to point out where I'm making mistakes so that I can identify and thus correct them (not leaning on it to avoid doing the work but to check my answers), sure, you're absolutely right! Fucking lazy!

So fucking lazy... I hope I wasn't. Would be such a fucking lot better if I just learned everything on my own, never asked questions to clarify unclear situations, and never learned that I got it all wrong from the start! At least you could call me a hard working fuck!


But okay. A new question for those who want to support me in my learning process:

If I'm going in D minor and I have an Ab6(or +5, or whatever) chord, am I correct to label it Vb6? Also, would an E major be just II, or do I have to do something special to indicate that it's not the normal ii dim chord expected in the scale?

I've googled around for this, and have not found a clear answer.

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Old 02-15-2013, 06:44 PM   #30
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In D minor, an E major chord would not be labeled as II. In roman numeral analysis, that does not exist. It would be analyzed as a secondary dominant chord, this it would be labeled as a V/V or "Five of five" since an E major is the V or A, which is the dominant in D minor.

As for the first question, I'm assuming you mean an A major chord with an altered degree (A, C#, E#). If you are referring to it as a +5, or augmented chord, it would be labeled as simply V+. The chord A, C#, E, F would be not be a b6, but a F major 7 augmented, but that's up for debate.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:02 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Angusman60
In D minor, an E major chord would not be labeled as II. In roman numeral analysis, that does not exist. It would be analyzed as a secondary dominant chord, this it would be labeled as a V/V or "Five of five" since an E major is the V or A, which is the dominant in D minor.

How do I know when to look for (=even consider the possibility) of a secondary dominant?

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Old 02-15-2013, 07:07 PM   #32
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Ah, I just realized one mistake of mine:

The progression in question is F-Dm-F-Dm-F-Em-A7 (after which it heads back to a part starting with Dm, which is the key of the song).

So it's an E minor, not a major. Would that be a ii, then?

(I'm still also interested in an answer to my previous question about the secondary dominant
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:21 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Aukikco
Ah, I just realized one mistake of mine:

The progression in question is F-Dm-F-Dm-F-Em-A7 (after which it heads back to a part starting with Dm, which is the key of the song).

So it's an E minor, not a major. Would that be a ii, then?

(I'm still also interested in an answer to my previous question about the secondary dominant

Ok man, sorry about before. You explained your reasonings.

This here (the highlighted) is a ii-V movement. Very common in jazz to "ii-V your way in to" a chord.

Ex. Em - A7 is a ii-V preparation for the Dm. It would be more theoretically correct to label the Em as Em7b5 but it's no big deal. This can work in so many areas.

Last edited by mdc : 02-15-2013 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:43 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mdc
Ok man, sorry about before. You explained your reasonings.

Glad to know it came through

Quote:
Ex. Em - A7 is a ii-V preparation for the Dm. It would be more theoretically correct to label the Em as Em7b5 but it's no big deal. This can work in so many areas.

Even if it's actually not an Edim chord but just an Em? Do explain!
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Old 02-15-2013, 07:55 PM   #35
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Take that progression F-Dm.....

Instead of going F - Dm - F... you can "ii-V'' your way back into the F, like this

F - Dm - Gm7 - C9 - F

In that example, all chords belong to the key, but it can get more interesting...

Last edited by mdc : 02-15-2013 at 07:56 PM.
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:24 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Aukikco


Even if it's actually not an Edim chord but just an Em? Do explain!



The reason it is correctly labeled a Emin7b5 (half diminished) is because, in minor, the triad built off of the 2nd scale degree is diminished. If you think of minor as a "mode" of the major scale, then, the first note is vi, likewise, the 2nd note is vii. It can still be a regular E minor, it would just involve an accidental. So, technically, you would be utilizing the melodic minor scale (with Em) instead of the natural minor scale (Edim). This is because changing the Edim (E, G, Bb) to Em (E,G,B) raises the 6th degree of the scale (Bb to B). This is a primary give away for melodic minor.

Secondary dominants can be identified by a two criteria. 1) Major chord where it doesn't belong, in this instance an E major. 2) It must be used to "tonicize" (or temporary modulate) a chord that is not the tonic of the stated key.

So, "E" major will tonicize "A" major which then resolves to it's tonic "D" minor (in this case). Hence the term "secondary dominant", or, "V of V".
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