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Old 12-09-2012, 05:39 PM   #21
eddiehimself
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddhm
Ps. If what you are saying was true, a single speaker (like a 1x 18) would not have that problem.


What I am saying IS true. If you played a bass amp with one speaker, you wouldn't have any problems with that type of interference. It's only the addition of extra speakers that give you that sort of problem. In this case, the issue is caused by the fact that you've got the combination of a 1x15 and a 4x10 cab. 4x10s are not great because you get this sort of interference in both the horizontal and vertical directions.
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Last edited by eddiehimself : 12-09-2012 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 12-09-2012, 06:34 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by eddiehimself
There's no partially correct about it. You either hear a sound wave, or you don't. Accuracy doesn't come into it. To be honest, I think the sound would end up being made worse by standing far away from it in most rooms because of the added influence of the reflections from the rest of the room.



wouldnt that insinuate that no matter what you do the audience would never hear a good signal?
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Old 12-09-2012, 10:32 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by .30over
wouldnt that insinuate that no matter what you do the audience would never hear a good signal?

No, it means that short of putting speakers directly next to each person's ears AND isolating everyone so there is no bleed, no-one will ever hear a perfect replication of what is coming from the speakers.

What people perceive as 'more accurate bass' is actually reverb from the room.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by chatterbox272
No, it means that short of putting speakers directly next to each person's ears AND isolating everyone so there is no bleed, no-one will ever hear a perfect replication of what is coming from the speakers.

What people perceive as 'more accurate bass' is actually reverb from the room.


But if the sound is effected by things such as room size reverb, crowd noise and the such. Wouldn't the only way to make a correct assertion about the sound and its quality in each environment be from a distance. If you were listening to it next to the speaker making assumptions about how it sounds to the crowd you will most likely be way off. Either that or legions of sound techs have had it wrong this whole time and their sound tables should be on stage with the rest of the band. Doesn't matter what the sound is when is right in your ear it can easily mask the sounds around it giving you a false impression of its volume or even quality. And whether being at a distance "technically" makes a sound wave more defined or not, that is how the human ear perceives it.

Take the damn rap blasters in their shaky clown cars.....up close it sounds like garbage rattling around in a trash can...from a block away it is usually clearly defined, punchy....still sounds like garbage rolling around a trash can but maybe not so much of it. But inside that car there is no way one could accurately say that they are hearing the same thing as what the people down the street are? Yes they hear it...but it is usually a ridiculous mess of bass. The ones further down hear tones.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:59 PM   #25
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But if the sound is effected by things such as room size reverb, crowd noise and the such. Wouldn't the only way to make a correct assertion about the sound and its quality in each environment be from a distance. If you were listening to it next to the speaker making assumptions about how it sounds to the crowd you will most likely be way off. Either that or legions of sound techs have had it wrong this whole time and their sound tables should be on stage with the rest of the band. Doesn't matter what the sound is when is right in your ear it can easily mask the sounds around it giving you a false impression of its volume or even quality. And whether being at a distance "technically" makes a sound wave more defined or not, that is how the human ear perceives it.


No, no, no. If what you are saying was correct then when the sound guys wanted to mic the guitars they would put it at the front of the stage and point it at the amp. But we all know that's not what they do, they stick it a few inches from the cab.

The sound techs are out in the crowd because they know that the crowd does affect the sound (crowds are massive treble cuts) and needs to take that into account when manipulating the 'correct' sound you have on stage, so as to best reproduce it through the PA for the crowd. If you don't have it right to begin with, the sound guy can't fix it for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by .30over
Take the damn rap blasters in their shaky clown cars.....up close it sounds like garbage rattling around in a trash can...from a block away it is usually clearly defined, punchy....still sounds like garbage rolling around a trash can but maybe not so much of it. But inside that car there is no way one could accurately say that they are hearing the same thing as what the people down the street are? Yes they hear it...but it is usually a ridiculous mess of bass. The ones further down hear tones.


That's a bad example, the car is likely being shaken by the speakers, producing lots of unwanted high end. On top of that, the higher frequency waves will be reflecting off objects, whilst the lower ones will just diffract around them. So when we're nearby we get a mess of treble and mids from all the reflections and other interference. Further away you lose a fair amount of those high frequencies because they don't diffract well, so you get a more even balance.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:14 PM   #26
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Wow, okay Eddie. First, I can't help but notice that you disregarded my point that negated your opinion on this matter concerning multiple drivers being the real problem. That in and of itself negates your argument. You still hear more low end further away from a single speaker enclosure.

Secondly,you are dead wrong about accuracy. Sometimes you don't hear enough of a sound wave. Sometimes a speaker reproduces too much of it. You can still hear 50 hz coming from a 3 inch speaker... that doesn't mean that it's the right amount of it. If accuracy isn't important why do we have all this stuff to adjust our systems to make them accurate? What are system EQs for? Why does it matter to us what speaker our stuff is coming out of? I mean, do you play your bass through a bunch of 6x9 car speakers? Probably not. Would you? Again, probably not. Why? Because they wouldn't accurately reproduce the sound.

I suppose that you'll tell me that there is also no such thing as proximity effect as well? It's not exactly a part of this discussion but you get where I'm headed (if you know your stuff anyways).

Last but not least: Son, I've been an audio professional longer than you've been alive (according to your profile). Currently I'm the mix engineer for the Memphis Symphony Orchestra, an audio visual system installer and designer, have been the front of house engineer, monitor engineer or system engineer in countless venues for countless bands on countless tours (the Barkays, Ray Charles, Chely Wright, Manhattan Transfer, Booker T and the MGs, Les Claypool, Clutch, Alex Scolnick, Hawthrone Heights, P Funk, and yes... Iron Maiden just to name a few). What are your credentials?

I'm glad that you have opinions...however my opinions are rooted in 20+ years as an audio professional sitting at front of house hearing bad sounding bass rigs, science, fact and my R.T.A. Oh yeah, and playing bass longer than you've been breathing. What are yours based on?

To the O.P. I'm sorry to be hijaking your thread with this banter between Eddie and I. Won't happen again.

Last edited by ddhm : 12-10-2012 at 01:33 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by chatterbox272

The sound techs are out in the crowd because they know that the crowd does affect the sound (crowds are massive treble cuts) and needs to take that into account when manipulating the 'correct' sound you have on stage, so as to best reproduce it through the PA for the crowd. If you don't have it right to begin with, the sound guy can't fix it for you.


The Front of House position is in the crowd because that is what you are covering with the PA. IN other words, the engineer is with the crowd so that he or she can hear the same thing as the audience. A good engineer walks the room throughout his gig to check the entirety of a room. Under the balcony sounds WAY different then on the floor, etc.

It is true, there are several factors that go to tuning a PA . Crowd is indeed one. Just the people breathing has a tendency to raise the air temperature which makes high end frequencies act different than at sound check. We could also mention the air density because of the humidity. Arses in the seats make the room change.

There is even more to the story than you guys are mentioning here is really what I'm getting at.

The reality is that it's never right coming off the stage lol. It's the engineer's job to make it right. We play a game of trades most nights. It's never right everywhere in a room (almost). If a guitar is too loud on the stage, we don't put it in the PA. Then the folks on the balcony can't hear the guitar because it's not in the PA. The guitar is on the stage shooting the engineer in the face so he hears enough of it. BUT, but but, the balcony? See, trades.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by chatterbox272
No, no, no. If what you are saying was correct then when the sound guys wanted to mic the guitars they would put it at the front of the stage and point it at the amp. But we all know that's not what they do, they stick it a few inches from the cab.

The sound techs are out in the crowd because they know that the crowd does affect the sound (crowds are massive treble cuts) and needs to take that into account when manipulating the 'correct' sound you have on stage, so as to best reproduce it through the PA for the crowd. If you don't have it right to begin with, the sound guy can't fix it for you.



That's a bad example, the car is likely being shaken by the speakers, producing lots of unwanted high end. On top of that, the higher frequency waves will be reflecting off objects, whilst the lower ones will just diffract around them. So when we're nearby we get a mess of treble and mids from all the reflections and other interference. Further away you lose a fair amount of those high frequencies because they don't diffract well, so you get a more even balance.


you just proved mine and coincidentally ddhm's point that you only hear a clear "more even" sound from a distance................the intricacies of the why and hows are not what ddhm got into "he simply said that the only way to get a clear image of what your bass is doing is from a distance....which Eddie said was wrong. By what you two have said alone about interference insinuates that "yes" the only way to get a decent image of what it is actually doing is from a distance. He never stated that you could not hear a sound unless you were a wavelength away. Just stated the notion that low frequencies waves take longer to move than highs.

Last edited by .30over : 12-10-2012 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:24 PM   #29
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no prob......would still like an idea as to why my active bass seems to sound better when I turn all 6 frequencies down on my amp head. I know active provides a boost but is it so much that adding EQ just muddies everything up. Is it that Diamond series pickups and electronics from Schecter are finicky items more suited to menstrual women who understand their feelings. Are acoustic amps geared towards simple power with an Eq centered on all the wrong frequencies. Is the supposed "built in tube-like compression) touted by Acoustic just monkeyin with my sound or what?

Or maybe I truly dont like the sound and its me. But pinpointing all variables will hopefully stop me from purchasing yet another thing that doesn't hit the spot. Whether its new pick ups or a better amp head.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:27 PM   #30
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and I would like to thank all who replied anyways.


I posted the same exact thread on Talkbass before I did this one and as of yet have no replies whatsoever.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:36 AM   #31
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Yeah Talkbass is funny like that, sometimes you'll post a thread and get lots of opinions from different people including the odd argument and you come off knowing a lot more about the topic than you did when you posted it. Other times your thread will just die without a single response.
That's why I usually post here if I think people will know what I need to know, it's more likely that you'll get an actual response.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:45 PM   #32
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I looked at the bass you mentioned. If it's put together correctly, the woods denote that it should be a fairly bright sounding bass. Is that true when you play it unplugged? You'd probably have to stick your ear up to it and see. Again, if the bass isn't making the tones you want, no amount of "fixing" with EQ or whatever is gonna make it sound the way you want.

Without knowing the actual model on the cabs, I can't say that they are being really driven properly and might not act properly either. From what I saw, the Acoustic 4x10 is about 600 watts and only being driven with (at max) 200 by the head. Not sure the required OHM load.

I'm not really of the belief that 200 solid state watts for bass is really enough for anything other than a medium practice amp (unless you are lucky enough to play with reasonable people).

Silly question, is your battery in the bass good? Another silly question: Are you plugging into the "active" jack on the amp? One last silly question: how old are your strings and what strings are they?

All of that being said, I have to wonder if your amp is functioning properly. You might try to borrow another amp and check the cabs. It could also be that the tones you hear from your practice amp are colored by smaller speakers and not allowing you to hear the mud. You are in troubleshooting mode now my friend and everything is suspect. Plug in another bass to the amp as it exists and see if the problem persists. In other words, change one element at a time and see when the problem goes away.

Also, are you talking about a SansAmp or the Digitech Bass Driver? I can't find any acoustic setting on either of those pedals. Either way, I'd get that out of line while I was troubleshooting because that "acoustic" setting you are talking about could produce the tone you speak of. During your troubleshooting, I suggest that you set all your EQs to flat. On the bass, the amp, everything. You need to get rid of all the coloring that you can before you start.

It's obvious that your practice amp and big rig are different creatures. The EQ on your bass while playing through your practice amp might need to change when you get to the big rig. Did I mention that you should start with all the EQs flat?

One last thing and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned (in the 1st answer to your post): The electronics in instruments in that price range can be really dodgy. After verifying that all the components are functioning properly the electronics would probably be my first thing to replace.

Jeez, there are actually a lot more things to think about as well. Is the guitarist super loud or mid heavy? It could be something like the guitar is dominating in the frequency range of the things that you want to hear. The best way to find out is to play without the guitarist for a bit. If the tones you want are there while he isn't playing, there's your problem. You'd have to boost all those frequencies or he would have to cut them. It might not be the guitarist at all.

Perhaps I'm taking this too far lol.

Ps. I can't be sure that I mentioned starting with all EQ flat.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:59 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddhm
I looked at the bass you mentioned. If it's put together correctly, the woods denote that it should be a fairly bright sounding bass. Is that true when you play it unplugged? You'd probably have to stick your ear up to it and see. Again, if the bass isn't making the tones you want, no amount of "fixing" with EQ or whatever is gonna make it sound the way you want.

Without knowing the actual model on the cabs, I can't say that they are being really driven properly and might not act properly either. From what I saw, the Acoustic 4x10 is about 600 watts and only being driven with (at max) 200 by the head. Not sure the required OHM load.

I'm not really of the belief that 200 solid state watts for bass is really enough for anything other than a medium practice amp (unless you are lucky enough to play with reasonable people).

Silly question, is your battery in the bass good? Another silly question: Are you plugging into the "active" jack on the amp? One last silly question: how old are your strings and what strings are they?

All of that being said, I have to wonder if your amp is functioning properly. You might try to borrow another amp and check the cabs. It could also be that the tones you hear from your practice amp are colored by smaller speakers and not allowing you to hear the mud. You are in troubleshooting mode now my friend and everything is suspect. Plug in another bass to the amp as it exists and see if the problem persists. In other words, change one element at a time and see when the problem goes away.

Also, are you talking about a SansAmp or the Digitech Bass Driver? I can't find any acoustic setting on either of those pedals. Either way, I'd get that out of line while I was troubleshooting because that "acoustic" setting you are talking about could produce the tone you speak of. During your troubleshooting, I suggest that you set all your EQs to flat. On the bass, the amp, everything. You need to get rid of all the coloring that you can before you start.

It's obvious that your practice amp and big rig are different creatures. The EQ on your bass while playing through your practice amp might need to change when you get to the big rig. Did I mention that you should start with all the EQs flat?

One last thing and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned (in the 1st answer to your post): The electronics in instruments in that price range can be really dodgy. After verifying that all the components are functioning properly the electronics would probably be my first thing to replace.

Jeez, there are actually a lot more things to think about as well. Is the guitarist super loud or mid heavy? It could be something like the guitar is dominating in the frequency range of the things that you want to hear. The best way to find out is to play without the guitarist for a bit. If the tones you want are there while he isn't playing, there's your problem. You'd have to boost all those frequencies or he would have to cut them. It might not be the guitarist at all.

Perhaps I'm taking this too far lol.

Ps. I can't be sure that I mentioned starting with all EQ flat.


I cant be sure, but there is a tiny possibility that in that thesis you sent me, a thought concerning flat eq's was expressed.

Sans Amp. the acoustic setting is a suggested setting in the manual that came with it. Except I add a tiny bit of low and some blend to warm it up a bit.
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Old 12-15-2012, 03:55 AM   #34
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OK debaters, in the words of Zappa. Shut up and Play yer Guitar.

OK OP.

Bass is fine in Practice Amp, but crud in big rig.

Cabinets and amp are cearly different, killing the EQ made a difference. Getting distance between yourself and the amp was a great move.

I say pull the 15 out of the rig and the Sans Amp. start limitig your variables. I do not play 15's unless they are Full Range types like JBL or Meyers.

See what that does for you at 20 feet or so.

After that reduce Bass to 2/3's, mids to 3/4 and highs to 3/4's and listen. No Joy? Invert the Bass and Treb Settings. This should familiarize youself with the natural frequency response /shape of the amp with th 10's. Want more bass? Then add the 15 back into it.

With a passive amp I start with Vol at 2 and the TMB as above then listen for the runble. I am after that which is not mud that 15's seem to be to me. Then I go for the Bite of Geddt Lee on the Treble, and fill gringing with mids.

If you have a pre Volume and a Master Vol, I run master full out and pre at 2 and touch lightly to test what the thing actually has to offer. This strangely eliminates electronic choke points while limiting the potential for muddy dirty signal which makes things fart out.

You have to do this some time before you trash the amp, so just get it overwith.

Bass should naturally do BASS, but the last couple of designs I have owned in the active worldhavebeen very different. I am doing +7.5 db onBass, +2 on mids, and -7.6 on Treble and it still shrieks like old Geddy and twangs like Entwistle. The Warriror I had made of mostly Maple, well the treble was cut out completely and was still too bright.

I am not impressed wih Schecs, They do not tonally move me, nor do I find them visually of any interest. But it is makng the el cheapo practice amp dance, so it must have something to give you.

If I read your OP correctly, I think this is either a 15 isue or too much crud, and it is time to return to the fundamentals of the amp as to what it was designe to do. It had t be good for something to be made.

Also, take the Sans Amp to the Practice Amp and seewhat it dies to that operation. Then set it ina manner that makes it give ou something you like. Then move it over to the Big Rig.

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Old 12-15-2012, 11:28 AM   #35
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OK debaters, in the words of Zappa. Shut up and Play yer Guitar.

OK OP.

Bass is fine in Practice Amp, but crud in big rig.

Cabinets and amp are cearly different, killing the EQ made a difference. Getting distance between yourself and the amp was a great move.

I say pull the 15 out of the rig and the Sans Amp. start limitig your variables. I do not play 15's unless they are Full Range types like JBL or Meyers.

See what that does for you at 20 feet or so.

After that reduce Bass to 2/3's, mids to 3/4 and highs to 3/4's and listen. No Joy? Invert the Bass and Treb Settings. This should familiarize youself with the natural frequency response /shape of the amp with th 10's. Want more bass? Then add the 15 back into it.

With a passive amp I start with Vol at 2 and the TMB as above then listen for the runble. I am after that which is not mud that 15's seem to be to me. Then I go for the Bite of Geddt Lee on the Treble, and fill gringing with mids.

If you have a pre Volume and a Master Vol, I run master full out and pre at 2 and touch lightly to test what the thing actually has to offer. This strangely eliminates electronic choke points while limiting the potential for muddy dirty signal which makes things fart out.

You have to do this some time before you trash the amp, so just get it overwith.

Bass should naturally do BASS, but the last couple of designs I have owned in the active worldhavebeen very different. I am doing +7.5 db onBass, +2 on mids, and -7.6 on Treble and it still shrieks like old Geddy and twangs like Entwistle. The Warriror I had made of mostly Maple, well the treble was cut out completely and was still too bright.

I am not impressed wih Schecs, They do not tonally move me, nor do I find them visually of any interest. But it is makng the el cheapo practice amp dance, so it must have something to give you.

If I read your OP correctly, I think this is either a 15 isue or too much crud, and it is time to return to the fundamentals of the amp as to what it was designe to do. It had t be good for something to be made.

Also, take the Sans Amp to the Practice Amp and seewhat it dies to that operation. Then set it ina manner that makes it give ou something you like. Then move it over to the Big Rig.

(Banned from TalkBass in all foms)


My amp, and all Acoustic amps I believe, have a gain and volume knob. I am usually at 12 oclock on both controlling volume from bass. But will be playing some form of party tonight. Can try this and check it out. Planning on getting rid of the 15. Always practice with the Sansamp on the practice amp. To be honest Ive been considering trading in the schecter for something else, but being left handed limits my choices, or I end up having to pay more for a bass. It is hell trying to find a good left handed bass in a world designed for righties.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:25 PM   #36
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It is not your bass. But you should play every Lefty you ever see, just to see what is out there.

12/12 Not usually a great setting, espeially when the power gets flowing. I would call this Pre Gain issues.

This is prob why things started to get better when the EQ was cut out of the equaton.Do you have an effects loop that you can pop the Sans Amp in and out of to give that a try?

It is beginning to sound as if thePower section does need to be unleashed and the Sans and pre sections backed off.

This is how I used to run my Yammie PB-1,Vol at 2 and the Bass was at say 6, the mids at 7,and treble at 8 (Some call it a" Fender Tone Stack") the Pre just naurally made Bass which was just mud by the time you hit 7 or 8. The Crown MT-1000 was running flat out.

I Did this for the Bassist for Gerry Autry in Fort Worth, he had a new GK 212x115 Rig and he was hating the tone farting out on him, so we cranked the Master and backed the Pre, I told him to play light with this Right Hand, and he seemed to love it.

If this buys you time to find a more powerful Amp that sounds good with your Bass, well that will be good. I am not an Acoustic believer, I had a 1x15 w/o EQ long long ago. Went to 2x15 Fender Bassman, then I started reading about Entwistle.

If you were in dallas i would get you to rent a Power amp of 400 wats and bring my PB-1 over so you could see what the cabs sounded like when the frequencies were split between the cabinets and sent 200 watts each cab.

I suspect the Cabs are salvageable, but the Wattage limitations of the Amp itself are going to hold you back.

It is either time to Biamp with a PB-1 or sell the rig in to buy a (full range) Genz Benz in the 400Watt or up range, I am at 425 and get fired by guitarists for being louder than their 3 stacks.

I would tell you to not stop your search until yu say "WOW", better is OK, but WOW means you have found inspiration.
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