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Old Yesterday, 11:36 AM   #23201
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For what it's worth, the high end vehicles are also the ones that get returned to the dealer because "the leather is too wrinkly" (not an exaggeration - I see similar messages at work constantly). Every miniscule detail gets reported, which makes the chance of actual defects going unreported a bit lower.

This in addition to the already mentioned increased complexity of the cars, of course.

Edit: on second thought, my point is less relevant when it comes to objective/independent studies and comparisons
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Old Yesterday, 12:09 PM   #23202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ultimate-slash
For what it's worth, the high end vehicles are also the ones that get returned to the dealer because "the leather is too wrinkly" (not an exaggeration - I see similar messages at work constantly). Every miniscule detail gets reported, which makes the chance of actual defects going unreported a bit lower.

This in addition to the already mentioned increased complexity of the cars, of course.

Edit: on second thought, my point is less relevant when it comes to objective/independent studies and comparisons


That only happens when they get old...
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Old Yesterday, 12:45 PM   #23203
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Originally Posted by JackalUK
So in a true real life reliability test where do would you expect to find things like Ferraris, Lambos etc. More leaning on the side of engine failure and such as opposed to smaller cosmetic or unimportant issues. Do they have stats like that?


I dont think so. They historically have not really kept stats like that below a certain sales volume threshold, which Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc don't go over
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Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM   #23204
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Originally Posted by Blayney
And a recent what car/warranty direct analysis ranked the most reliable manufacturers as...

source?

http://www.jdpower.com/press-releas...ndability-study



notice how most makes are fairly clustered together in the same range, and then at the very bottom there's a huge jump for LR and Fiat.
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Old Yesterday, 01:01 PM   #23205
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Originally Posted by JackalUK
Guess I should never get a Cayman or F-type then.

Porsche's build quality is actually very high these days. They really buckled down on reliability after the IMS/RMS fiasco.
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Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM   #23206
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Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
Porsche's build quality is actually very high these days. They really buckled down on reliability after Volkswagen purchased them.





Why does BMW, a premium brand, have such average dependability numbers?
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Old Yesterday, 01:10 PM   #23207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arby911


Why does BMW, a premium brand, have such average dependability numbers?


some might say they are overengineered. Volkswagen and Benz, too. It's a german thing.
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Old Yesterday, 01:12 PM   #23208
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Originally Posted by Arby911


Why does BMW, a premium brand, have such average dependability numbers?

Premium does not equate to reliability.

You answered your question a few posts ago... more complex electronics and drivetrain.

I kept my electronic options pretty tame for this reason. Hell...I wish manual seats were an option. As for drivetrain, my specific engine (N55) was made at the end of its production life and has proven to be a very dependable engine. I wish I could say the same for the former 328i which had a newer N20, which I often see people with similar "drivetrain malfunction" errors in the BMW forums.

I think a lot of people have the misconception that more expensive = better reliability. These same people treat their E class like a Camry and see oil changes as an optional thing to do whenever.
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Old Yesterday, 01:17 PM   #23209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
Premium does not equate to reliability.

You answered your question a few posts ago... more complex electronics and drivetrain.

I kept my electronic options pretty tame for this reason. Hell...I wish manual seats were an option. As for drivetrain, my specific engine (N55) was made at the end of its production life and has proven to be a very dependable engine. I wish I could say the same for the former 328i which had a newer N20, which I often see people with similar "drivetrain malfunction" errors in the BMW forums.

I think a lot of people have the misconception that more expensive = better reliability. These same people treat their E class like a Camry and see oil changes as an optional thing to do whenever.


Yes, but some of the Luxury brands seem to manage it? Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of BMW (and Mercedes...) but I'm disappointed that the Germans can't meet or exceed the Japanese standards, especially with the Japanese building so much in the US...
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Old Yesterday, 01:21 PM   #23210
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Originally Posted by Acϵ♠
some might say they are overengineered. Volkswagen and Benz, too. It's a german thing.


I'm not sure I follow? Consider the "overengineering" in the Mercedes W123 sedans. Damn things were near-bulletproof and good for 300,000 to 400,000 miles. (This is not to say they didn't ever have electrical issues etc. of course, but still.)

As much as I dislike the term "programmed obsolescence" I do believe there's a level of quality that manufacturers are unwilling to exceed, even though they have the capability.
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Old Yesterday, 01:22 PM   #23211
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Originally Posted by Arby911
Yes, but some of the Luxury brands seem to manage it? Don't get me wrong, I've always been a fan of BMW (and Mercedes...) but I'm disappointed that the Germans can't meet or exceed the Japanese standards, especially with the Japanese building so much in the US...

That's at least partially because Japanese cars are not performance oriented and have tamer / simpler engines. Notice the ones that ARE more performance oriented, Mazda, Infinity, Subaru, etc are clustered around the Germans in the middle.

The RX-8's rotary engine was almost guaranteed to die around 100k....

Anyways, I wasn't complaining about reliability. But LR is so unreliable while having no distinguishing perk as a "premium" brand, that it's just perplexing how they're still around.
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Old Yesterday, 01:28 PM   #23212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
That's at least partially because Japanese cars are not performance oriented and have tamer / simpler engines. Notice the ones that ARE more performance oriented, Mazda, Infinity, Subaru, etc are clustered around the Germans in the middle.

The RX-8's rotary engine was almost guaranteed to die around 100k....


I'm hard pressed to not consider the Lexus RC F performance oriented...

I fully agree that LR is a "Marquee" brand with no redeemable features.
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Old Yesterday, 01:29 PM   #23213
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Originally Posted by Arby911
I'm hard pressed to not consider the Lexus RC F performance oriented...

Except hardly anyone buys an RC-F or LFA. For every RC-F there's probably 10 M3s, 3 C63 AMGs, 5 S4s, etc...you get the idea.

The overwhelming majority of Lexus cars are premium Camrys and RAV4s...
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Old Yesterday, 01:59 PM   #23214
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Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
The overwhelming majority of Lexus cars are premium Camrys and RAV4s...


This is funny because it's so true!!
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Old Yesterday, 02:46 PM   #23215
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...so.... no one's gonna comment on Hyundai's N?!?! It could be pretty sweet...
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Old Yesterday, 02:58 PM   #23216
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Catch can goes on the Fusion today. Wish me luck.
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Old Yesterday, 03:10 PM   #23217
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Originally Posted by Xiaoxi
...so.... no one's gonna comment on Hyundai's N?!?! It could be pretty sweet...


Nothing really to comment on yet, a fancy shadowed front shot of something that will never be a production model and nothing at all on the horizon for the consumer.

I will say the base model Genesis is certainly in the hunt for best economical performance luxo-coupe. 6 speed MT or 8 speed AT, RWD (Limited Slip), 348 HP. and a ~3,500# curb weight so it's not like they don't have a clue. Now if only they would put the V8 in it...at 420 HP I'd buy one...
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Old Yesterday, 05:58 PM   #23218
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Originally Posted by Arby911
I'm not sure I follow? Consider the "overengineering" in the Mercedes W123 sedans. Damn things were near-bulletproof and good for 300,000 to 400,000 miles. (This is not to say they didn't ever have electrical issues etc. of course, but still.)

As much as I dislike the term "programmed obsolescence" I do believe there's a level of quality that manufacturers are unwilling to exceed, even though they have the capability.


those W123 sedans were from a completely different engineering era, where the only things relied upon were pretty much all mechanical in some way or another (and the things that weren't, like windows, lights, etc, all crapped out at some point or another anyways). And typically the only ones going that high on the odometer were the diesels, which is natural given the design.

All the newfangled technological hocus pocus (variable suspensions, electronically controlled throttles, drive/steer/brake-by-wire, blah blah blah) are cool and awesome and work real well when new but they are not the sort of things that will last much further than 150k miles. All it takes is one frayed wire somewhere and your super premium Mercedes is on the verge of blowing itself up. Not that it's likely, but as previously mentioned it's just one more thing to go wrong.

That's not necessarily the overengineering im talking about either. There's a reason your average mechanic doesn't/won't work on German cars, and it's because the simplest of tasks, like taking the door panel off to replace a speaker for example, takes about 8 extra steps because of how it's designed. Changing the oil is a major pain in the ass because you have to remove a bunch of parts just to get to the damn oil filter. That's overengineering. Then you put it back on and now there's a creak somewhere.

We're entering a new time period in automotive history where pretty much every car that rolls off the assembly line has a shelf life of 10 years or 150-200k miles or so before owning it and maintaining it becomes prohibitively expensive. Like all these nav systems and computer touch screens basically that most cars have now--you think that shit is gonna still be 100% A-OK in 10 years? Lol no. The advancement in technology is nice for a while, but the days of cars going 300k+ miles are long gone. And it's not like this was an accident, either--i firmly believe it's all planned to keep the cycle of consumerism going. Why would car companies keep making bulletproof cars that last 30 years when they know they can essentially have you back in 5-10 years to buy another?
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What does a girl have to do to get it in the butt thats all I ever wanted from you. Why, Ace? Why? I clean my asshole every night hoping and wishing and it never happens.
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Old Yesterday, 06:01 PM   #23219
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Originally Posted by Arby911
Nothing really to comment on yet, a fancy shadowed front shot of something that will never be a production model and nothing at all on the horizon for the consumer.

I will say the base model Genesis is certainly in the hunt for best economical performance luxo-coupe. 6 speed MT or 8 speed AT, RWD (Limited Slip), 348 HP. and a ~3,500# curb weight so it's not like they don't have a clue. Now if only they would put the V8 in it...at 420 HP I'd buy one...


I have a bad feeling the N division is smoke and mirrors. Convenient that one of BMWs M division bosses leaves to Hyundai, then they come out with the N performance division. All they have so far is a hopped up Veloster (puke) and an add-in for a video game. I'll believe it when i see it, and they can start with a turbo V6 Genesis coupe in the 450hp range. Hyundai's engineering has come so far in such a short time but they need to take their time with this N thing if they want to do it right and not embarrass themselves.
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Old Yesterday, 06:11 PM   #23220
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Every time I see a Veloster my initial reaction is fairly positive...until I get to the rear. At that point I scratch my head and wonder wtf happened.
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