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Old Yesterday, 10:48 AM   #65001
Neo Evil11
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Well the UK is a very rigid class society.
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Old Yesterday, 10:50 AM   #65002
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Well the UK is a very rigid class society.

Only at the very extremes. It's difficult to not succeed if your parents are rich and influential, and it's difficult to succeed if your parents are jakey bastards. For everyone else, it's a reasonably even playing field.
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Old Yesterday, 12:14 PM   #65003
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Libertarianism is the answer
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Old Yesterday, 01:34 PM   #65004
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If it involves capitalism, it ain't right.

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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Only at the very extremes. It's difficult to not succeed if your parents are rich and influential, and it's difficult to succeed if your parents are jakey bastards. For everyone else, it's a reasonably even playing field.

A society built around a hierarchy is not an even playing field. Especially not when the the lower rungs of the ladder are both pushed to stay there and are on the lowest pay levels.
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Old Yesterday, 01:37 PM   #65005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banjocal
If it involves capitalism, it ain't right.


A society built around a hierarchy is not an even playing field. Especially not when the the lower rungs of the ladder are both pushed to stay there and are on the lowest pay levels.

Well, if you're worried that you're not enough of a **** to be an investment banker or a duke, then that's your problem.

Pretty much any actual job is open to anyone with ability.
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Old Yesterday, 01:38 PM   #65006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Well, if you're worried that you're not enough of a **** to be an investment banker or a duke, then that's your problem.

Pretty much any actual job is open to anyone with ability.
Not as much when stereotypes and classism exist. Theory is all very nice up until praxis comes in and social structures come into play.

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Old Yesterday, 01:38 PM   #65007
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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Only at the very extremes. It's difficult to not succeed if your parents are rich and influential, and it's difficult to succeed if your parents are jakey bastards. For everyone else, it's a reasonably even playing field.

lol
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Old Yesterday, 01:40 PM   #65008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banjocal
Not as much when stereotypes and classism exist.

They'll always exist. They might change a little from time to time, but they'll always be there.
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Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM   #65009
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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
They'll always exist. They might change a little from time to time, but they'll always be there.
Nice dodging of the point there. They suppress and make it harder for those on the lower socioeconomic rungs to get higher jobs.
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Old Yesterday, 01:44 PM   #65010
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I thought judges could overrule the jury? or am I getting confused with the yoo kay?

Where I'm at, judges can only overrule on points of law -- not the decision itself.
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Old Yesterday, 01:45 PM   #65011
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Originally Posted by Banjocal
Nice dodging of the point there. They suppress and make it harder for those on the lower socioeconomic rungs to get higher jobs.
See, by caring so much about people's backgrounds,you're endorsing classism.

Well done that man.
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Old Yesterday, 01:48 PM   #65012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
See, by caring so much about people's backgrounds,you're endorsing classism.

Well done that man.
No, I'm saying those in power support and perpetuate classism, and that is a social issue which should be addressed. Denial of classism would be to support it through inaction in the face of injustice. Power dynamics, learn them.
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Old Yesterday, 02:07 PM   #65013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banjocal
No, I'm saying those in power support and perpetuate classism, and that is a social issue which should be addressed. Denial of classism would be to support it through inaction in the face of injustice. Power dynamics, learn them.

I'm not denying classism. It's just something that you can't get rid of. You'd have classism in a pure meritocracy, and people saying "it should be addressed" and doing **** all about it.
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM   #65014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
I'm not denying classism. It's just something that you can't get rid of. You'd have classism in a pure meritocracy, and people saying "it should be addressed" and doing **** all about it.


You'd have classism because some people are better than others. Bell curves and shit yo
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Old Yesterday, 02:10 PM   #65015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
I'm not denying classism. It's just something that you can't get rid of. You'd have classism in a pure meritocracy, and people saying "it should be addressed" and doing **** all about it.
Well, that's why I support the destruction of class structures perpetuated by greed and prejudice pertaining to that, but that's another discussion.

The actions of many amount to a lot in the long run. Simply educating people about social issues does a lot due to the potential influence it can have on themselves and others.

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Old Yesterday, 04:01 PM   #65016
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Originally Posted by slapsymcdougal
Being flippant aside, the point of a jury is that people aren't being judged solely by a privileged elite.
The judge is there to help the jurors decide which arguments are valid, and which are merely lawyers attemtpting to muddy the waters, on behalf of their client or in order to secure a conviction.


Why not make judgement come from an online website where everybody in the country can vote "Guilty" or "Not Guilty", and they can see Youtube videos with the statements of the lawyers and judge (and maybe some ads)? Your biggest fear of being judged by a "privileged elite" will disappear completely!


But yeah, don't give the power to uphold the law to some random dudes who may have never been in contact with the law, or may not have any sort of competence when it comes down to serving justice (e.g wanting to make any random judgement just to get away from jury duty as soon as possible and not prolong it).
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Old Yesterday, 04:24 PM   #65017
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Banjocal
liberalism favours a free market (sometimes a private free market) with greater open-mindedness and freedom of will and belief. Leftism opposes the market much much more and can from there move towards authoritarianism and nationalism or towards anarchism (or stay in-between).


anarchism is pretty close to the freedom that you're talking about with liberalism- there are left-libertarians, for example.

also right-wing thought tends to lend itself quite easily to nationalism as well. fascism and all that.
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Old Yesterday, 05:24 PM   #65018
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anarchism is pretty close to the freedom that you're talking about with liberalism- there are left-libertarians, for example.

also right-wing thought tends to lend itself quite easily to nationalism as well. fascism and all that.
Of course, but liberalism in general is not synonymous with leftism and leftism implies a greater distaste for the market, whereas liberalism attempts to make the market a fairer one (somehow) and introduces want for greater individual freedom. Ultimately leftism primarily refers to socialist economics rather than acceptance and welcoming of capitalism while believing in the coexistence of individual capital freedom and equality (something almost as contradictory as anarco-capitalism though on a lesser basis).

For these reasons, I consider a comparison between the two to be idiotic because they disagree on the matter of economic system, which is the defining factor as to how the agreeing points work out. imo.

Yeah the right wing are very prone to it and America's actions in destabilising democratically voted socialist nations are evidence enough for this (they not liking to think about the /other/ 9/11). As it is, I don't consider 90% of past attempts at communism to be communism because an autocrat speaks for himself and the class system was still present. It's a quick way of implementing a faux-socialism but it is most certainly not actual communism. Unfortunately the propaganda of a dictator is far more powerful when applied on top of an already capitalist system under change. Cuba seems to be doing well, though, from what I've been told. A couple of Eastern communist countries are thriving in an embarrassing way and Canada has twice attempted at implementing UBI with universal success both times.

I'm very worried about Europe (and surrounding countries) though, Germany are doing better but France and Sweden and the like seem to be implementing some more leftist policies while going really hard on the nationalism. You'd think they'd have learned.
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Old Yesterday, 05:44 PM   #65019
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So, what do you guys think about populism?
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Old Yesterday, 11:18 PM   #65020
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Originally Posted by Banjocal
I'm very worried about Europe (and surrounding countries) though, Germany are doing better but France and Sweden and the like seem to be implementing some more leftist policies while going really hard on the nationalism. You'd think they'd have learned.
I think this is an inevitable course for countries with large welfare states. In the presence of competing political economies socialist states will have to close ranks to stop from bleeding money to new entitlement recipients that haven't paid in for very long, and to stop the diluting of their values that happens when a nation diversifies with new immigrants.
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