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Old 12-10-2012, 01:00 PM   #1
iSouLeZz
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Does this make sense?

Alright say.. You're playing this progression..

Cm - Dm7b5 - Fm - G7..

I get the basic idea of following chords using arpeggios and different embellishments and such.. Creating a melody.. But I want to be able to use the theory to its full potential..

So..

If I follow the Cm chord by playing a Cm arpeggio kind of lick/idea/phrase..
It's hard for me to explain this.. But if a Cm arpeggio comes up, you can play an Eb Major arpeggio idea/phrase?

For the G7, would it be best to follow it using the harmonic minor..
I could also use the relative minor, right? Which would be Em..

But besides the relative major and minor..

For example..
Could I take another tone from the G7 chord, for example, the B note, and build an arpeggio off of that and follow the chord that way?

I would imagine it would create more tension with some of the notes, and they would have to be used as passing tones..

I've been following chords strictly to the chord itself.. I haven't explored too much of the relative major/minor.. But I understand the concepts, that they relative has the same exact notes, it just sounds a bit different, maybe sweeter or darker..

So can this same concept be extended to each note in the chord?

It's hard for me to explain this very simply..

In the progression above

Cm - Dm7b5 - Fm- G7

I could follow all of the chords playing Cm natural/harmonic..

But now if I took it a step further and followed each chord exactly as I could..
For the Fm I could play Fm natural?
For the G7 I could play a G major scale idea?

I know it all just goes down to what my ears like and what sounds right, but.. The more I look at the theory.. Man I was looking at things so miniscule..

I'm barely scratching the surface following the chords.. I would be completely shocked and out of my zone if the song was to change Keys entirely.. I want to be the best I can be, and learning everything about music is part of it.. It's just..

I feel like there a million ways to follow one chord..
One door opened up and now there are a thousand other doors to choose from..

If it makes sense..
I'm looking for that gypsy jazz kind of sound..
I'm looking to create music that reminds me of my home country (India), but with the rock and blues influence..
I look to players like Django and Marty Friedman for inspiration.. But I don't know how they compose their solos but I can tell they follow chords so precisely..

It's really confusing for me to understand..

How do I word this properly LOL..

I want to continue playing the chord-tone approach to building solos and music in general..
But I want to begin substituting the arpeggios and note choices I play..

There are 4 different chords in the progression, I believe there's a way I can use all 12 notes to their fullest without discriminating just because they don't fit in the key of Cm..

I want to be completely free on my fretboard..
I don't want to be limited to set ideas.. I just don't know if I'm going about this the right way.. I want to be able to achieve the musical ideas I have in my head.. But.. SHIT.. I don't feel like I have all the knowledge..


And please..

I'm having so much trouble following the Dm7b5 chord.. I've been using the flattened fifth and focusing on the harmonic minor to produce interesting results.. But how many times can you do the same thing before it gets old? I could use the Minor pentatonic but come on? I'm not the greatest improvisor or composer..

I had some advice before on following the chords and building my own melodies..
But I have to continue progressing..
I feel like following the chord exactly how the chord is, kind of leaves it very safe, without much tension..

I'd like to finally be able to understand what my favorite players are doing..

Last edited by iSouLeZz : 12-11-2012 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:43 PM   #2
Fourfourforever
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holy crap man just play in C minor and train your ear calm down. Sing your intervals, use the functional ear training program work on technique experiment man you're over thinking the music man experiment with the 7 notes in C minor and the other 5 notes that are not in C minor and see what you like over the progression holy smokes.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:06 PM   #3
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Ts, you need to develop vocabulary. You'll get that by listening and copying what you hear. That's how music students learn Indian music, to an extent.

The master plays, the student listens, absorbs, copies.

It's the same with jazz. You have enough theory already from what I've read.

You'll get a more accurate idea of what those guys are doing by transcribing, than if it was possible to travel back in time and ask them yourself. Because frankly, they probably couldn't answer that question, as it's something that comes from deep within them.

Transcribing will get you as close as you can possibly get. Yes it's hard. Yes it's painstakingly slow at times.

You get back what you put in.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:33 PM   #4
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i study music at UWO in london ontario. calm down haha youre overthinking alot, if you want your music to sound "indian with rock/blues" i would suggest you make harmonic progressions that develop slowly, allowing you to focus on modal melody over top of the "tonic" or "fundamental pitch". dont worry too much about the chords and how they fit together, fast chord changes are more for western music systems. Marty Friedman is more about modes than he is chords, he says in interviews to even make up your own scales.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:34 PM   #5
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And why do you not have a sitar in honor of your motherland. Solution get a sitar play in Cm
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:37 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac71
i study music at UWO in london ontario. calm down haha youre overthinking alot, if you want your music to sound "indian with rock/blues" i would suggest you make harmonic progressions that develop slowly, allowing you to focus on modal melody over top of the "tonic" or "fundamental pitch". dont worry too much about the chords and how they fit together, fast chord changes are more for western music systems. Marty Friedman is more about modes than he is chords, he says in interviews to even make up your own scales.

Hey I live in London too! And I agree with the overthinking part.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:42 PM   #7
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Marty Friedman is about following chord tones and having a good ear and natural longevity of being around music and having his hands on the instrument other then that he know not what he says about thy modes father.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:48 PM   #8
iSouLeZz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourfourforever
Marty Friedman is about following chord tones and having a good ear and natural longevity of being around music and having his hands on the instrument other then that he know not what he says about thy modes father.



Part of that is what makes it so confusing..
Someone says it's modes.. One person says it's chord-tones.. One person is this, and than one person says..

"Follow your ears"..

Music theory isn't a definite answer.. But it can begin to explain some of the mysteries..

I really have no grasp on modal theory.. I don't know if it's even similar to chord-tone soloing.. I kind of pushed that to the side as many people told me it's too confusing and yields the same result as chord-tone soloing..

It's kind of.. Damn..

Phrygian Dominant.. Harmonic Minor.. All of these terms..
I feel like none of them are really producing the results I want.. Maybe I've been looking at this the wrong way.. :/..
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSouLeZz
I feel like none of them are really producing the results I want.. Maybe I've been looking at this the wrong way.. :/..

Theory isn't a tool for writing music, it's a tool for figuring out why good music sounds good. Use your ears, play what sounds good, and THEN use theory to analyze what it is that sounds good so you can expand upon it.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:56 PM   #10
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"descriptive, not prescriptive"

i haven't read the rest of the thread but i pull that quote a lot when dumbass guitarists who use all-guitar-chords.com to find mode shapes for their "prog deathcore" solo bedroom project tell me that music theory's for chumps

not referring to TS there, but most of my posts are either bashing some random stereotype that annoys me or paraphrasing what other people said so i figured i'd go for a toofer and call it a day. three if you count me not actually reading the OP lol

Last edited by Hail : 12-10-2012 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 10:34 PM   #11
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Refer to my sig.

That said, a solo isn't really much of a solo if you don't play a single note.

Practicing scales is useful, not because it tells you what to play over a certain chord, but because it develops your ears and fingers to really feel the music. It helps you get that instinct that all the masters seem to have. Of course, it's not just scales, but I'm just trying to making a point here.

As for directly answering your questions, here goes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSouLeZz
If I follow the Cm chord by playing a Cm arpeggio kind of lick/idea/phrase..
It's hard for me to explain this.. But if a Cm arpeggio comes up, you can play an Eb Major arpeggio idea/phrase?
Playing an Eb major arpeggio over a C minor chord would be the same as playing the top three notes of a Cm7 arpeggio. Don't think of it as Eb major.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSouLeZz
For the G7, would it be best to follow it using the harmonic minor..
I could also use the relative minor, right? Which would be Em..
Don't use E minor. Next question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSouLeZz
Could I take another tone from the G7 chord, for example, the B note, and build an arpeggio off of that and follow the chord that way?
I don't understand what you're trying to do here. You can start an arpeggio on whatever note you want. But still think of it as the same arpeggio. If you play B D F over a G7 chord, you're not playing a Bdim arpeggio. You're still playing a G7 arpeggio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSouLeZz
I would imagine it would create more tension with some of the notes, and they would have to be used as passing tones..
Well, if you played tension notes on the chord then they would just be tension notes. You're over-complicating it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSouLeZz
I've been following chords strictly to the chord itself.. I haven't explored too much of the relative major/minor.. But I understand the concepts, that they relative has the same exact notes, it just sounds a bit different, maybe sweeter or darker..
You don't change anything by just playing the relative scale over the same chord. You're just playing the same scale, but you're fooling yourself by calling it something else.

What the **** do you mean by the second chord? Is it really a major third and a diminished fifth? Or do you mean Dm7b5?

And as for the rest of your post, it just takes time man. Listen to your favorite players. Learn all of their material (preferably by ear as much as you can). You seem to know the fundamental theory, but you don't understand the context. Quite honestly, it helps to forget all about scales and arpeggios. Once you have them under your fingers, you need to break out of that. Once you develop your ear, you need to just think in notes and phrases. And like I said, it's not easy by any stretch of the imagination. But the more transcription and ear training stuff you do, the better you'll get at it.
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Last edited by food1010 : 12-10-2012 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 05:00 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iSouLeZz
Alright say.. You're playing this progression..

Cm - D7b5 - Fm - G7..

I get the basic idea of following chords using arpeggios and different embellishments and such.. Creating a melody.. But I want to be able to use the theory to its full potential..

So..
[long post]
I'd like to finally be able to understand what my favorite players are doing..

Think in terms of meldoy as much as chord tones and arpeggios. It's not all arpeggios but your chord tones will feature and arpeggios are a great tool. The idea however is to also target tones and use stepwise motion into and out of them to create smooth flowing melody lines as opposed to a series of broken chords.

You can use chord substitutions and arpeggiate a different chord or use tones that are not present in the chord. If for example you use an EbM arpeggio over the Cm chord you will be effectively giving that Cm a Cm7 sonority.

As for the G7 you would most likely use the C MELODIC minor scale as that is exactly the purpose fo the C melodic minor. It has the leading tone (B) that is present in the G7 chord and keeps a smooth stepwise motion up to the C tonic with a P5 M6 M7 P8 ascending note choice.

Hopefully this wasn't completely over your head.
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Old 12-11-2012, 11:49 AM   #13
iSouLeZz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20Tigers
Think in terms of meldoy as much as chord tones and arpeggios. It's not all arpeggios but your chord tones will feature and arpeggios are a great tool. The idea however is to also target tones and use stepwise motion into and out of them to create smooth flowing melody lines as opposed to a series of broken chords.

You can use chord substitutions and arpeggiate a different chord or use tones that are not present in the chord. If for example you use an EbM arpeggio over the Cm chord you will be effectively giving that Cm a Cm7 sonority.

As for the G7 you would most likely use the C MELODIC minor scale as that is exactly the purpose fo the C melodic minor. It has the leading tone (B) that is present in the G7 chord and keeps a smooth stepwise motion up to the C tonic with a P5 M6 M7 P8 ascending note choice.

Hopefully this wasn't completely over your head.


Yeah that cleared it up for me. I didn't see it like that. It's not a different arpeggio, it just makes it an extension. Got it. I was really over thinking that.

I guess when you explain it like that it makes a lot of sense.

I like the theory aspect of it all but I think it's not as important as I was thinking it was. It helps to understand all of it but, wow, it really becomes a distraction sometimes from the music itself.

Thanks for the help, I don't have a teacher so sometimes these concepts are a little confusing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by food1010

And as for the rest of your post, it just takes time man. Listen to your favorite players. Learn all of their material (preferably by ear as much as you can). You seem to know the fundamental theory, but you don't understand the context. Quite honestly, it helps to forget all about scales and arpeggios. Once you have them under your fingers, you need to break out of that. Once you develop your ear, you need to just think in notes and phrases. And like I said, it's not easy by any stretch of the imagination. But the more transcription and ear training stuff you do, the better you'll get at it.


Yeah man your post really helped clear that up.. Haha yeah, I guess I wrote it quickly and didn't notice I wrote the name of the chord wrong.

I'm going to start working on transcribing by ear because I feel like I have the theory under my belt. I was really over thinking things, but it's actually pretty simple after all. I've been using this functional ear trainer for a week, and I've been getting better at it.. but I think it's going to take a lot more time than that to see progress..

Thanks again dude
Helps to have you guys clear this up for me

Last edited by iSouLeZz : 12-11-2012 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 12-11-2012, 12:47 PM   #14
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Yeah that simplifies it a lot. Play in C minor, adjust for accidentals (i.e. Bb becomes B natural over the G7).

Notice, I didn't say play the C minor scale. I said play in C minor. There's a difference.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:32 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by food1010
Yeah that simplifies it a lot. Play in C minor, adjust for accidentals (i.e. Bb becomes B natural over the G7).

Notice, I didn't say play the C minor scale. I said play in C minor. There's a difference.



Haha yeah man that makes life a lot easier.
Yup I got that idea down! The key isn't the same as the scale!
Thanks again.

For the lulz,
Here was the idea I was working on for this progression.. I'm kind of done with this progression and trying to solo the way I have been.. I'm just going to focus on ear training..
Since I teach myself.. I just write a progression, and work on soloing over it for a couple of days.. I haven't been playing for too long but haha, youll get a good laugh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Qvw...eature=youtu.be
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Old 12-12-2012, 01:57 AM   #16
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Hey man, melodically it sounds pretty decent. It just needs some phrasing. At times it just seems like a scattered stream of notes, like a long run-on sentence with no punctuation. It didn't sound too scalar or anything.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:11 AM   #17
iSouLeZz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by food1010
Hey man, melodically it sounds pretty decent. It just needs some phrasing. At times it just seems like a scattered stream of notes, like a long run-on sentence with no punctuation. It didn't sound too scalar or anything.




Man it's cause when I sit there I'm literally like Ok..
Here we go

Cm ? Let's put this lick here.
Oh you have a Dm7b5 coming up? Write a lick wherever you are on the fretboard
Fm? Keep going

And I just kept repeating that cycle until I actually HEARD an idea in my head..


I know when people write solos they only use a couple of licks, and use repetition a lot..
But I have so much trouble defining the melody of the song, and keeping it interesting while only using like 6-7 licks.

I can keep the melodic content somewhat ok, but I just have trouble grasping the whole, following the chord thing.. Like, I get it, but, you see that it sounds good but it doesn't make sense..

Looking at the bottom of your sig really clears it up for me..
Those are ideas I just forced out using theory and from just knowing how to play guitar..

I've only been playing for a year and some change..
I just have to keep pushing.. cause right now.. I am nowhere near the level of skill or understanding my heroes have



You know what did this to me? lol I don't blame the guy
there's this thing called
iguitarmagazine

I saw a guy named Michael Casswell giving a lesson on building melodic solos.. I followed his method and it's producing these results.. Which is a huge step for me but.. The melodic content and message of the solo is alright, nothing spectacular

Last edited by iSouLeZz : 12-12-2012 at 10:18 AM.
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Old 12-12-2012, 12:58 PM   #18
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Honestly, you need to worry a lot less about following the chords. Music isn't chord-to-chord or scale-to-scale. A song is a whole story. The words are the notes. The sentences are the phrases. Paragraphs are song sections. Chapters are album tracks.

The metaphor of music as language/literature is practically perfect. It's not about stringing together words that fit grammatically. A sentence like that could be "I walked on the car in the grocery store." It follows all grammatical conventions, but just doesn't have any meaning. This is the same idea as simply "following the chord/scale." You're just stringing together notes that "work." You're not telling a story.
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