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Old 01-23-2014, 12:04 AM   #361
caeser1156
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Originally Posted by StewieSwan
No because the principle is crime prevention through your own actions. Yeah, nobody should break into your car and steal your shit, but they do, and a certain amount of responsibility falls on you to take certain steps to prevent such things, like locking the door on your car. If you're going to say "Don't tell me to avoid getting raped. Tell your kid not to rape me" is the same logic of saying "Don't tell me to lock my doors. Tell your kid not to break into my house/car". So like I said, if east locks his doors, he's not being consistent with his own anti-victim-blaming viewpoint.

What preparation and caution are you even suggesting though?
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:04 AM   #362
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This thread is so rank with #rapeapology
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:05 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by caeser1156
What preparation and caution are you even suggesting though?



It really doesn't matter. What he was responding to didn't specify, so he obviously takes issue with the viewpoint and not just the specifics.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:08 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by StewieSwan
It really doesn't matter. What he was responding to didn't specify, so he obviously takes issue with the viewpoint and not just the specifics.

He's probably so against it because "rape prevention" doesn't really work. Rape prevention is based on this idea that rape is normally some sketchy guy grabbing the girl whose dressed slutty out of the back alley. Rape doesn't happen like that. But that's what rape prevention is almost always geared towards.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:08 AM   #365
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easty just doesn't want all the young girls warned about him


It's because he doesn't use turn signals when he drives.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:11 AM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caeser1156
He's probably so against it because "rape prevention" doesn't really work. Rape prevention is based on this idea that rape is normally some sketchy guy grabbing the girl whose dressed slutty out of the back alley. Rape doesn't happen like that. But that's what rape prevention is almost always geared towards.



Sure it does.


>Girl gets invited to frat party full of college football players. Massive amounts of alcohol will be consumed

>Girl doesn't have any friends there to be with her

>Girl thinks "hmmm…might be smarter not to go."

And voila.

Don't just assume that I believe in the 'grabbed off the street' type of rape. Any idiot knows that tons of rapes happen between acquaintances in casual settings.

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It's because he doesn't use turn signals when he drives.


Don't tell me to use my turn signal. Tell your kids not to drive behind me.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:17 AM   #367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StewieSwan
No because the principle is crime prevention through your own actions. Yeah, nobody should break into your car and steal your shit, but they do, and a certain amount of responsibility falls on you to take certain steps to prevent such things, like locking the door on your car. If you're going to say "Don't tell me to avoid getting raped. Tell your kid not to rape me" is the same logic of saying "Don't tell me to lock my doors. Tell your kid not to break into my house/car". So like I said, if east locks his doors, he's not being consistent with his own anti-victim-blaming viewpoint.

What actions could one do to avoid getting raped?

EDIT already asked

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Old 01-23-2014, 12:22 AM   #368
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Originally Posted by macashmack
What actions could one do to avoid getting raped?



Probably the biggest one is to not consume too much alcohol at house-parties with people you barely know, as a ton of rapes happen at parties with girls who had too much to drink and are unable to consent to sex. Probably avoid sending mixed body language signals to inebriated guys. It ain't got nothin' to do with how you're dressed or anything, though. I don't think these are incredibly unfair or unreasonable precautions.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:40 AM   #369
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let me humor you for a minute and state that the motivations behind theft and rape are mostly different. people steal to make a living or out of necessity, which doesn't apply to rape. people do steal opportunistically though, and people do rape opportunistically, so there's some common ground where your analogy has traction. however i'd like to point out that locking my car takes all but 300 ms and does not inconvenience me in any way. it's not the idea of precautions i criticize, it's the nature of them. here's another thing: we accept the idea that theft is always the fault of the thief. when focusing on how to prevent left, we start with the thieves, not the victims. what do we do to stop thieves? we set up cameras as deterrents, we have neighborhood watch programs, we light up streets at night, we invest in education, we spend half of kindergarten telling kids that sharing is good, stealing is bad, and the police patrol the streets looking for them. and THEN we focus on victims with the simple, convenient, and sensible advice to probably lock your doors.

it's suspiciously a different story with rape. it's not as simple as locking your vagina. sure, maybe getting drunk around a bunch of guys you don't know is a bad idea (for numerous reasons actually), but if you were on a gov't task force asked how to prevent rape, would you start with "well, we should stop girls from getting so drunk at parties." no, you would focus on the rapists! that's the logical thing to do! it's our rape culture that paradoxically diminished the role of the rapist in rape. we learn that rape is something that happens to you, not something that someone does. it goes just the same for the rape of men. consider prison rape. why is there a joke in Office Space recommending you kick someone's ass the first day in order to avoid it? love that movie, but it's a perfect example. why do we accept prison rape as an inevitability when it should be cut out altogether?

in short, it's not that precaution is a problem. it's that our culture will only acknowledge precaution by to-be victims as the solution to rape. the original post i made mocks that aspect of our culture by exaggerating it. to be frank, i don't think anyone should go to a party and get smashed without a semi-sober friend around. accidents happen and there are bad apples we will never catch.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:44 AM   #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eastwinn
yes, the best way to prevent rape is preparation and caution. those damn women haven't been cautious enough and are getting themselves raped everywhere. if only we could prevent people from raping! nope, it's in their nature.

Crime cannot be prevented in a "free" society. You can't stop people from committing rapes any more than you can prevent them from committing any other crime. To an extent it is in human nature, as much as any other behavior. Specific circumstances and environments lead to certain behaviors.

You cannot control other people's choices.

Quite literally, in the case Stewie brought up, the victim wasn't cautious enough. Granted she was young and probably very naive. An adult has a responsibility to defend themselves. We all have this responsibility. We have responsibility for our own protection and our own well-being, in all situations.

Let me be clear I'm not saying anything to the effect of 'they deserve it' or 'it's their "fault"'. All I'm saying is that the world isn't fair. We aren't as evolved a species as we'd like to believe, and if you give people a chance to take advantage of you, they will.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:46 AM   #371
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That's a bullshit false dichotomy and you know it.

@east
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:49 AM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealUnrealRob
In response to..




East saying that we educate would-be rapists or caution would-be victims. We can and do both at the same time.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:51 AM   #373
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You're a fucking idiot.

You're still wrong about it. You're drawing connections where there are none. If you graphed the sentence it would be pretty obvious.


Dude you literally refuted nothing of what I said. You said "there are no connections" and to see that there are none we should 'graph the sentence'. You're the ****ing idiot, buddy.
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Old 01-23-2014, 12:53 AM   #374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StewieSwan
East saying that we educate would-be rapists or caution would-be victims. We can and do both at the same time.

Yes.

And to be more clear, I'm not saying we shouldn't teach our kids rape is bad. Of course we should. And we should be publicly and loudly disgusted by people who say that rape victims asked for it. And we should prosecute people who try to hide crimes like this, like the rape involving the football team.

But we should also tell people to protect themselves. As much as we'd all like to live in an ideal world, and should try to work toward that, you can't act like you do.

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Old 01-23-2014, 12:58 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by RealUnrealRob
Yes.

And to be more clear, I'm not saying we shouldn't teach our kids rape is bad. Of course we should. And we should be publicly and loudly disgusted by people who say that rape victims asked for it. And we should prosecute people who try to hide crimes like this, like the rape involving the football team.

But we should also tell people to protect themselves. As much as we'd all like to live in an ideal world, and should try to work toward that, you can't act like you do.

Carnivean is 10/10 successful troll.



Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

I don't know where this 'nobody takes rape seriously' fantasy came from. My best friend in high school got accused of rape by his vicious ex-gf and the first thing that happened to him was to be thrown in jail overnight. Regardless of whether or not he did it (he didn't btw. Case was thrown out) it's obvious that it was taken incredibly seriously.
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Old 01-23-2014, 01:00 AM   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealUnrealRob
Crime cannot be prevented in a "free" society. You can't stop people from committing rapes any more than you can prevent them from committing any other crime. To an extent it is in human nature, as much as any other behavior. Specific circumstances and environments lead to certain behaviors.

You cannot control other people's choices.

Quite literally, in the case Stewie brought up, the victim wasn't cautious enough. Granted she was young and probably very naive. An adult has a responsibility to defend themselves. We all have this responsibility. We have responsibility for our own protection and our own well-being, in all situations.

Let me be clear I'm not saying anything to the effect of 'they deserve it' or 'it's their "fault"'. All I'm saying is that the world isn't fair. We aren't as evolved a species as we'd like to believe, and if you give people a chance to take advantage of you, they will.
The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.

You can't prevent it all but rape is different than things like murder for some people.

Look at times where prominent American football players were found guilty of rape. Quite a few people lamented their ruined career and ignored the fact that they gang raped someone. As mentioned, prison rape is the butt of many jokes. Murder and other violence is also used in a lot of humor. We, meaning the US, have a problem with trivializing violence. We also have a problem with confronting sexuality. We're pretty prude at times. So instead of deal with problems, we'd rather sweep them under the rug.

There are precautions that everyone should take. Don't flash a bunch of money in shady neighborhood when you're alone, lock your car and house, don't drink much around strangers (goes for everyone), etc. I think we should focus more on cultural reform regarding rape since there is a lot of victim blaming. Shit happens to good people sometimes but you don't often hear about murder victims being at fault for their murder because they provoked their murderer or looked too vulnerable. Same with physical assault in many cases. I think we're too afraid to confront the sexual aspect of rape. It's entirely subjective but I've encountered quite a few men who honestly seem to enjoy the idea of rape or see nothing wrong with it. I see that as a failure of social conditioning. We're too worried about being explicit to really address rape except in vague or hushed tones.

That's how I see it. I see it as heavily connected with our teen pregnancy and STD problems.
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