Go Back   UG Community @ Ultimate-Guitar.Com > UG Community > The Pit
User Name  
Password
Search:

Reply
Old 06-28-2015, 09:50 AM   #5321
BrainDamage
Knirps for moisture
 
BrainDamage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
Because that proves nothing. We already knew he bet on baseball games, he admitted it. An investigation claiming that Pete Rose bet on Reds games while a member of the organization is just an investigation confirming what we already know. It was an exercise in futility if all anyone was trying to do was prove he bet on baseball games, because that's already an accepted fact. The purpose of this investigation was to find out the extent of those bets, and more specific details regarding them to provide context, such as whether or not he bet while he was playing, or whether or not he bet against his own teams.
You realize the Dowd report I'm referencing was the result of the original investigation in 1989, correct? My point (and it's backed up by what Dowd said in that article) is that when they first investigated him for gambling they had enough evidence to prove he gambled regardless if it was for or against the Reds. That's enough for permanent ineligibility, so they didn't need to extend the investigation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
But the way I've always felt about it is that, unless he bet against the Reds and intentionally failed at his job in order to win money, then his gambling was inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, at least as far as whether or not it's a big enough issue to warrant the lifetime ban and being exempt from Cooperstown. And considering the big difference in the implications of bets against the Reds and bets for them, I find it beyond reasonable doubt that they didn't just extend their deadline two or three days if they were that close to something that damning.
Again, it's possible that betting for your team can alter your strategy and tarnish the integrity of the game. I think that's the bigger point here, betting opens up the possibility of fixing/throwing games, point shaving, etc., so I'm OK with a no tolerance policy in terms of declaring players ineligible for betting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
I disagree. I'm less firm on this than the above, but I have a hard time believing as fierce a competitor as Rose would be willing to jeopardize his season to win some under-the-table bets. He knows baseball better than almost anyone, he's not dumb enough to do something that would jeopardize his chance to get a fourth ring for $200. Between that and the discrepancy between what the bets likely were and the performance bonus in most managerial and coaching contracts for a playoff berth/world series berth/world series win/etc, it doesn't make sense to me that, if he only bet on the Reds, that he would've altered his strategy because of it.
Fierce competitor, sure, but debt and a gambling addiction might enough to get him to change his strategy to win games he bet on. Also, Dowd thought (don't know if it was in the report and I'm not going to read through it again to find out) that the betting was connected to the mob, which could have had an influence as well. I'm not necessarily saying I believe that these things are true, but the fact that they're possible is enough to justify banishment knowing that he bet on baseball games he took part in in any way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
Again, this is confirming what we already know. The only new information in this is the "from 1984 to 1986" part, which is important, but does nothing to prove he altered his performance for the sake of his bets.

I'm well aware of the rule, but considering I've been in support of Rose's reinstatement, I don't need to explain that I'm not in total agreement with it.
My point in both quotes you responded to here was to point out that during the initial investigation in '89 there was no reason to extend it to determine if he bet against the Reds.

Nice to see some good discussion in this thread again
__________________
How to achieve Frank Zappa's guitar tone:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefallofman
Step 1: Buy a Gibson SG
Step 2: Insert Green Ringer, EQ, 3 dead squirrels and a microwave into said SG
Step 3: Plug in and freak the **** out.
BrainDamage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-28-2015, 06:12 PM   #5322
TheChaz
UG Newbie
 
TheChaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Matt Duffy was a triple short of the cycle yesterday. Today he's a single short with at least one more PA.

edit: damn. grounded out in the 8th.

Last edited by TheChaz : 06-28-2015 at 06:41 PM.
TheChaz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-30-2015, 06:46 PM   #5323
necrosis1193
UG Nerd
 
necrosis1193's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Moon
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainDamage at #33474404
You realize the Dowd report I'm referencing was the result of the original investigation in 1989, correct? My point (and it's backed up by what Dowd said in that article) is that when they first investigated him for gambling they had enough evidence to prove he gambled regardless if it was for or against the Reds. That's enough for permanent ineligibility, so they didn't need to extend the investigation.


I was not aware of that, I assumed this was a new piece of investigation

Quote:
Again, it's possible that betting for your team can alter your strategy and tarnish the integrity of the game. I think that's the bigger point here, betting opens up the possibility of fixing/throwing games, point shaving, etc., so I'm OK with a no tolerance policy in terms of declaring players ineligible for betting.


It opens up the possibility, but I've never been a fan of action taken on possibilities. There needs to be evidence that it was done maliciously to me to justify a lifetime ban. Banning for a few years I'm completely okay with, but permanent doesn't fit to me without concrete evidence they acted insincerely.

Quote:
Fierce competitor, sure, but debt and a gambling addiction might enough to get him to change his strategy to win games he bet on. Also, Dowd thought (don't know if it was in the report and I'm not going to read through it again to find out) that the betting was connected to the mob, which could have had an influence as well. I'm not necessarily saying I believe that these things are true, but the fact that they're possible is enough to justify banishment knowing that he bet on baseball games he took part in in any way.


And again, I disagree as far as his current ban. Five, ten years? Sure. Permanently banned? That to me is hard to justify when we're going on possibilities rather than certainties.

Quote:
My point in both quotes you responded to here was to point out that during the initial investigation in '89 there was no reason to extend it to determine if he bet against the Reds.


And that point makes infinitely more sense to me now that I know that the Dowd investigation is the original 1989 investigation

Quote:
Nice to see some good discussion in this thread again


I always hate it when the sports threads are devoid of actual debate. Discussion is for the sake of debate and learning, not just relaying facts.

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/book--...-212239227.html

Quote:
Inside the Los Angeles Dodgers' clubhouse, the contempt some teammates hold for outfielder Yasiel Puig is no longer a secret limited to whispers. They discuss it openly, resigned to the fact that the Dodgers don't plan to trade their mega-talented right fielder no matter how deep the animus runs.

"We've talked about this," one Dodgers player told Yahoo Sports. "At this point, it would be addition by subtraction."


This could get interesting.
__________________
Hey you! Yes, you! Buy my music! It's cool and stuff!

Baltimore Orioles: 2014 AL Eastern division champions, 2015: 27-31
York Capitals: 10-0, 2015 AIF champions
Baltimore Ravens: 2012 world champions, 2014: 10-6
2014 Pick 'Em: 173-79-3
necrosis1193 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2015, 12:39 AM   #5324
TSmitty6
In the traphouse
 
TSmitty6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: L-o-c-a-t-o-i-n. Location. *ding*
1 hitter by Mike Montgomery. 2nd complete game shutout in a row.


Noice.
__________________
58-32 NFL Thread Pick Em.
TSmitty6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2015, 01:01 AM   #5325
soundgarden1986
winning love by daylight~
 
soundgarden1986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
i desperately hope the phillies go on to have the worst mlb record in the modern era
soundgarden1986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2015, 01:37 AM   #5326
SaintsofNowhere
Mostly landscapes
 
SaintsofNowhere's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
swing the bats for canada tomorrow toronto
__________________
Phase I: Electric Velvet CottonCandy

-_‽GOOZE.‽_-

Last edited by SaintsofNowhere : 07-01-2015 at 01:38 AM.
SaintsofNowhere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-01-2015, 11:28 PM   #5327
necrosis1193
UG Nerd
 
necrosis1193's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: The Moon
http://m.mlb.com/video/v217514783/t...?game_pk=414833

http://m.mlb.com/video/v217448683/t...?game_pk=414833

http://m.mlb.com/video/v217517883/t...?game_pk=414833

Donaldson: .302/19HR/51RBI/95H/20 2B/68SO/3SB/3.3OWAR/0.8DWAR
Machado: .303/16HR/44RBI/92H/ 18 2B/54SO/11SB/3.3OWAR/1.1DWAR

Can someone please explain to me why Josh Donaldson has almost 10,000,000 more votes for AL 3B than Manny? I can understand him going instead, even if I disagree with it I understand the argument, but how on earth is it that big a margin?
__________________
Hey you! Yes, you! Buy my music! It's cool and stuff!

Baltimore Orioles: 2014 AL Eastern division champions, 2015: 27-31
York Capitals: 10-0, 2015 AIF champions
Baltimore Ravens: 2012 world champions, 2014: 10-6
2014 Pick 'Em: 173-79-3
necrosis1193 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2015, 03:18 AM   #5328
TheChaz
UG Newbie
 
TheChaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
http://m.mlb.com/video/v217514783/t...?game_pk=414833

http://m.mlb.com/video/v217448683/t...?game_pk=414833

http://m.mlb.com/video/v217517883/t...?game_pk=414833

Donaldson: .302/19HR/51RBI/95H/20 2B/68SO/3SB/3.3OWAR/0.8DWAR
Machado: .303/16HR/44RBI/92H/ 18 2B/54SO/11SB/3.3OWAR/1.1DWAR

Can someone please explain to me why Josh Donaldson has almost 10,000,000 more votes for AL 3B than Manny? I can understand him going instead, even if I disagree with it I understand the argument, but how on earth is it that big a margin?

It depends on the numbers you're using. If you go by FG, Donaldson's got half a win on Machado. Anyway, I'd imagine that the huge gap may be partly due to Manny being pretty widely disliked. On top of that, looking at his splits, it looks like he had pretty uninspiring April and May, while Donaldson was a monster for those first two months. All those early votes went Donaldson's way, even if they've had roughly comparable seasons at this point.
TheChaz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2015, 03:42 PM   #5329
soundgarden1986
winning love by daylight~
 
soundgarden1986's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
****ing Jose Fernandez man first start since like last may and he homers wtf
soundgarden1986 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-02-2015, 03:50 PM   #5330
TheChaz
UG Newbie
 
TheChaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Swept by the Marlins wtf. The Giants are so beat up right now. Aoki has a broken leg, Pence has wrist tendinitis, Posey left the game yesterday with a foul ball off the mask, Lincecum is on the DL with a contusion on his right arm, Affeldt is on the DL from a sore shoulder, Hudson is about to hit the DL tomorrow. Thank the baseball gods for the All star break.
TheChaz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2015, 12:04 AM   #5331
gratefulduck
Lies Beautiful Lies
 
gratefulduck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
any Mariners fans around? Its so lonely over here in the north east.
gratefulduck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2015, 11:21 AM   #5332
BrainDamage
Knirps for moisture
 
BrainDamage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
I was not aware of that, I assumed this was a new piece of investigation

...

And that point makes infinitely more sense to me now that I know that the Dowd investigation is the original 1989 investigation
I figured

Quote:
Originally Posted by necrosis1193
It opens up the possibility, but I've never been a fan of action taken on possibilities. There needs to be evidence that it was done maliciously to me to justify a lifetime ban. Banning for a few years I'm completely okay with, but permanent doesn't fit to me without concrete evidence they acted insincerely.

...

And again, I disagree as far as his current ban. Five, ten years? Sure. Permanently banned? That to me is hard to justify when we're going on possibilities rather than certainties.
Whatever the case, the guy should be in the Hall of Fame. That's the biggest thing here that I don't understand, and the same goes for Bonds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheChaz
It depends on the numbers you're using. If you go by FG, Donaldson's got half a win on Machado. Anyway, I'd imagine that the huge gap may be partly due to Manny being pretty widely disliked. On top of that, looking at his splits, it looks like he had pretty uninspiring April and May, while Donaldson was a monster for those first two months. All those early votes went Donaldson's way, even if they've had roughly comparable seasons at this point.
Was about to say half a win might not be enough to confidently say Donaldson's been better, but it's actually closer to a full win (4.4 to 3.6). It's pretty much a toss up though.
__________________
How to achieve Frank Zappa's guitar tone:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefallofman
Step 1: Buy a Gibson SG
Step 2: Insert Green Ringer, EQ, 3 dead squirrels and a microwave into said SG
Step 3: Plug in and freak the **** out.
BrainDamage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2015, 02:44 PM   #5333
TheChaz
UG Newbie
 
TheChaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrainDamage

Whatever the case, the guy should be in the Hall of Fame. That's the biggest thing here that I don't understand, and the same goes for Bonds.

I can understand the argument for Rose not being in the HoF. I don't agree with it, but I can understand it. I really don't understand Bonds and Clemens not being in the HoF. The same sportswriters that refuse to vote them in were giving them MVPs and CYAs knowing full well that they were using PEDs. It's just hypocrisy on the part of the writers. When juiced athletes are selling, they'll hype them up. When MLB changed its attitude about PEDs, they demonize them.
TheChaz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2015, 11:22 PM   #5334
DukeDeRox
I draw STUFF
 
DukeDeRox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: IL/CA
Quote:
Originally Posted by gratefulduck
any Mariners fans around? Its so lonely over here in the north east.

I was when you had Ichiro for all dem years You and the Bucs were my mistress teams. Now it's just been the Pirates as my back up cause my pops grew up it Pitt watching them in the 60s/70s.
DukeDeRox is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:29 AM.

Forum Archives / About / TOS / Advertise with us / Customer Support / Ultimate-Guitar.Com © 2015
Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.