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Old 01-05-2013, 04:55 AM   #141
ccannon1
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sorry for the necrobump, but I tried my hand at these species tonight (it's 2:52 AM as I finish the 3rd species), and hope you guys don't mind checking them over.

1st - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0877ffcdec7923b

2nd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...d1fbcad4f0b73b9

3rd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...feea32a009d5abc

note that I was too tired to be able to really count without confusing myself throughout the 3rd species haha
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Old 01-05-2013, 09:10 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by ccannon1
sorry for the necrobump, but I tried my hand at these species tonight (it's 2:52 AM as I finish the 3rd species), and hope you guys don't mind checking them over.

1st - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0877ffcdec7923b

2nd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...d1fbcad4f0b73b9

3rd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...feea32a009d5abc

note that I was too tired to be able to really count without confusing myself throughout the 3rd species haha


1st species:

Hidden 5th in bars 4 to 5, avoid this in 2-part exercises and between the outer voices when dealing with more voices. Bar 9, P5 is actually tritone - I'd suggest writing in G-clef and bass clef if you're unused to the other clefs, no point in making it harder for yourself at this stage. The bass, while having a clear low-point, is somewhat lacking in contour.

2nd species:

Very "skippy" counterpoint, try to use more stepwise motion, even in half notes. Bars 4-6, very clearly outlined tritones (F-A-B, B-E-F). Bar 7, forbidden dissonances - anticipations are not allowed in 2nd species, and to my memory very rare overall in renaissance polyphony. Also, while most textbooks allow passing tone dissonances in 2nd species, keep in mind that this is a practice to make you familiar with the dissonances, and dissonances in half notes is very uncommon in the actual music. Bar 9-10, chromatic motion, forbidden.

3rd species:

Bit of a mess. You skip into a dissonance in bar 2, the E in the bass, out of a dissonance in bars 5-6 (the D in the bass is dissonant and should move stepwise up). Bar 7 you kinda messed up, you missed a number (13 12 11 10, not 13, 11, 10, 9), so the E is actually dissonant. In bar 8, the 3rd interval is a 4th, dissonant. Bar 9, both a very outline tritone (F-D-B), and actual tritone between the voices (F-B), also, anticipation (the C). Bar 10, the C-A-B-C# feels very untypical of Palestrina-style vocal music, also the B is dissonant. Overall, the skips in the counterpoint feel rather unnatural - try to have stepwise motion over the barlines.

Hope that helps somewhat, mostly just had time to find the errors and gotta go now, ask away if you have questions.
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Old 01-05-2013, 07:14 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by ccannon1
sorry for the necrobump, but I tried my hand at these species tonight (it's 2:52 AM as I finish the 3rd species), and hope you guys don't mind checking them over.

1st - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0877ffcdec7923b

2nd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...d1fbcad4f0b73b9

3rd - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...feea32a009d5abc

note that I was too tired to be able to really count without confusing myself throughout the 3rd species haha


1st - As the guy above mentioned, there's a tritone and a hidden fifth. Beyond that your melody in measure 6-8 outlines a seventh, which is poor. Other than that, everything is fine technically speaking as far as I can tell. Your melody kind of sucks though and I'll tell you why. First off, you have two points where you leap and then continue in the same direction and that's a weaker gesture than coming back into the leap by step. Also, if you take out measures 6 and 7, look at your melody... It's just kind of meandering inside of that third or fourth interval and doesn't go anywhere. Think horizontally, think about direction.

2nd - Descara nailed it, you have way too many leaps. Again, think melodically and about direction, sing your lines. Leaps are fine as long as they're within reason (remember, it's always stronger to reverse direction in stepwise motion after a leap).

3rd - I'd just try that one again with what you've now (hopefully) learnt about first and second. 3rd species is the hardest, so I don't blame you, I blame Fux.
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:08 PM   #144
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Hooray for continuing valid and studious necrobumps!


As a matter of policy, if we are looking for critique/response on contrapuntal work that isn't species (read: inventions, fugues, canons, otherwise contrapuntally-concerned materials), should that go in the composition feedback and criticism sticky or somewhere else?
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Old 01-05-2013, 11:55 PM   #145
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just post a question you pussy

we need more non-modes non-adbot threads
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Old 01-06-2013, 01:12 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by AETHERA
inventions, fugues, canons, otherwise contrapuntally-concerned materials

now that's way more interesting. post em here

if you wanna get really indepth make a separate thread
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Old 01-06-2013, 02:15 AM   #147
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I'm really struggling with the direction of melody, what is the correct ideal shape for species? also, I redid my first species in C major http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0877ffcdec7923b
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:46 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by ccannon1
I'm really struggling with the direction of melody, what is the correct ideal shape for species? also, I redid my first species in C major http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0877ffcdec7923b


A relatively smooth curve, with a high or low point at about 2/3 of the curves length (like the CF you used) - though having a too early high or low point is more of a problem than a late. Anyway, like this, more or less (high/low point respectively):



As for the one you posted, there's a hidden octave bars 4-5, the repeated notes make the counterpoint stagnate, and of course the curve is way off, no hard feelings. Also, expanding on what jazz rock said about leaps, most of the time you want downward movement preceeding an upward leap (in regards to bars 8-9), as upwards leaps take a lot of energy. Though this is no absolute rule, but it's a good way to build up energy before leaping.

Anyway, I'm not actually a hughe fan of species counterpoint, but we have to do a 3-part Kyrie Eleison for school, anyone care to take a look?
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0Bx...OWlxejBlZDZCQ2s

Aware of the tritone in bar 14, wanted to affirm G as the tonal center before starting to move back to D and didn't find any other solution. Plus, Palestrina does that once in a while.

edit: discovered the parallel 5th bar 7-8. Played around changing the bass far too many times
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:00 PM   #149
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http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0877ffcdec7923b

I read somewhere that you can have two leaps going in the same direction as long as they outline a triad, is that true? In that case, would my movement in bars 7-9 be correct?
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:13 PM   #150
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A-D and G-C are 4ths, not 3rds.
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Old 01-06-2013, 06:49 PM   #151
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A-D and G-C are 4ths, not 3rds.


god damn am I making myself look stupid
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:44 AM   #152
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god damn am I making myself look stupid

Don't feel bad about it. You're not the first one in this thread. I beat you to that a few months back.


Just for the hell of it, 1st species. Maybe I've gotten better.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:28 AM   #153
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Don't feel bad about it. You're not the first one in this thread. I beat you to that a few months back.


Just for the hell of it, 1st species. Maybe I've gotten better.


First off - pertaining to the discussion above, your counterpoint has an extremely early high point, which makes the start the most interesting place. This in makes the rest rather boring, as the whole counterpoint is pretty much a de-escalation. Further, a fifth is an extremely large skip to start off with, you usually want to start with stepwise motion (which of course isn't possible with that CF) or smaller skips. Also, bar 9, tritone.
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:20 AM   #154
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First off - pertaining to the discussion above, your counterpoint has an extremely early high point, which makes the start the most interesting place. This in makes the rest rather boring, as the whole counterpoint is pretty much a de-escalation. Further, a fifth is an extremely large skip to start off with, you usually want to start with stepwise motion (which of course isn't possible with that CF) or smaller skips. Also, bar 9, tritone.

And I still look like an idiot. Not much changes in a month or two for me. :P
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Old 02-04-2013, 01:11 AM   #155
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Necrobump pt 2! I'm really determined to learn this.

I made my own cantus firmus in the bass clef.
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...1b31c808f4a7bae
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:14 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by ccannon1
Necrobump pt 2! I'm really determined to learn this.

I made my own cantus firmus in the bass clef.
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...1b31c808f4a7bae


first things first -- use the cantus firmus that's been provided. the one in the alto clef. there are rules governing not only the composition of counterpoint, but the composition of cantus firmi. it should also be in the alto clef, which will fix your range problem -- first species counterpoint should be thought of as composition for two voices, and your range even hits two octaves apart at one point, and spends most of its time in 13ths. far too much space between the two voices.

you have a leap of a downward minor sixth in the bass between measures 3 and 4, which is forbidden.

the counterpoint to the cantus firmus should be a good melody in its own right, even if the cantus firmus were to be removed.

if you're really determined to learn this stuff, use the cantus firmus and regulations i provided in the first post of the thread and try again.
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:17 PM   #157
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Old 02-04-2013, 10:27 PM   #158
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tried it again - http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vi...0877ffcdec7923b

advanced rudiments classes begin for me in the next week or so, so after completing the course I'll hopefully have a better grasp of this!
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