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Old 12-13-2012, 05:31 PM   #1
smit0910
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Chinese 12 string Rickenbacker Copy?

Hi there, first post.

<-DISCLAIMER->
<I am looking at this DHgate site, it is a chinese ebay-like site and I know guitar aficionados like to bash chinese-made guitars, but let's set that aside for a moment. And let's face it, the chinese work twice as hard and can do twice a better job at a lot of things than North Americans do for a quarter of the price and they're half as fat as we are as well, but they may also be twice as tricky and crafty, so you do the math. Do not give me a "If it seems to good to be true, it probably is" answer, those are no help and everyone hates moot points.
I know most people aren't like this, but a lot of snobs with unlimited disposable guitar income are>

I'm in the market for a 12 string electric guitar, particularly a Rickenbacker-style one. When I searched this site, I was surprised to see that they have many 330/12 copies in all different colours. These guitars range from 250 to 350 with a hard-shell case and it's free shipping AND they claim it as a 40 dollar gift so even if you have to pay customs, it will be at a very minimal cost.

In no way do they pretend or claim that these are authentic Rickenbackers, they just make them look similar. As far as I'm concerned, Rickenbacker should stop being dicks about people who try and copy the style of their guitars as there are many people who would LOVE one, but they make their price-points too high and there aren't any sub-level similar guitars (other than the Italia Rimini 12 which isn't modestly-priced either!). They should take an example from Fender who knows they make a good product and don't care that people are making copies of their guitars. Not to mention Fender also has about four different levels of guitars at higher and low prices.

I am well aware of the Danelectros, Deans and what-not that offer 12 string electrics, however, I'm simply not interested in those.

Where I am, If I was to ebay or buy online, it could even ended costing me like 600 bucks for one of the Danelectro 12 strings (even though there are 300 bones).

So- to my question- Has anyone had any experience with no-name chinese guitars? Things like pickups do not bother me, because i can easily change pickups. Basically, I want to know if the things stay in tune okay, and if they're decent for the price. The guitars look beautiful, amazing, immaculate.

I've read reviews from different sites and on the Dhgate itself and people seem very pleased with what they got. Now I'm here grabbing opinions from you guys! Thanks in advance!

Last edited by smit0910 : 12-13-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:54 PM   #2
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The big problem with sites like that is that you have no idea what you're getting. There's no company, no brand, no accountability. We can't tell you what the quality is like because there's a hundred different factories cranking these things out, with a wide range of results. There's no way of knowing until it's too late whether you got a competent instrument or something unusable long-term (most of them will 'work' out of the box). Unfortunately from what I've seen the odds are stacked heavily towards "unusable." Most of these instruments have serious structural or playability issues. Bad frets, frozen truss rods, warped necks, hardware that can't be intonated, etc.

As to Rickenbacker defending their trademarks and Fender allegedly not, as you claim - Fender aggressively defends their trademarked outlines. Notice that no US or European company makes a strat or tele style guitar with a headstock like a Fender? That's because Fender lost their legal right to claim the strat body shape, but retained the right to the headstocks. They're not "being dicks," they're defending their copyright and the livelihood of their business.

About your offensive little tirade - no, I don't think 'Aficionados' like to bash Chinese-made guitars. Sure, they tend to fall into a certain price bracket, but Fender is making some decent China products. Vox and Celestion and a ton of other companies are making great products out of China. What people have a problem with is a nameless entity making counterfeit products of dubious quality.


Anyway, you seem to have already convinced yourself that the only people who are going to tell you this is a bad idea are moneybags, snobs, and 'aficionados', so suit yourself. For the record, though:
This is probably a bad idea.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:37 PM   #3
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Besides your insult to American and European factory workers, realize that those Chinese factories often operate under much more relaxed enforcement of regulations regarding IP theft, worker safety, worker compensation, environmental pollution controls, and protecting endangered flora and fauna, which is a significant factor in keeping their costs down.

It's not an accident that down here in Texas, we had a bunch of people wind up hospitalized due to Chinese manufactured drywall emitting hazardous chemicals, or that a couple years ago, a lot of people lost pets to contaminated pet food, and loved ones to other contaminated foodstuffs.

Lets not even get into how they still use ridiculously high levels of lead in paints in general and in products aimed at kids in particular.

I'm not denigrating all Chinese goods in general. I have purchased things made in China as recently as this week.

I'm just giving some of the details behind the typical "caveat emptor" aimed at Chinese goods.
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Old 12-13-2012, 07:46 PM   #4
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There is no problem with Chinese made guitars for me...

there is a huge problem with FAKES.....

this site is well known for selling counterfeit products
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:39 PM   #5
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Don't buy cheap knock-offs, you will be disappointed.

Once I got my kids some KO Transformers toys and they were made of such crappy plastic that the figures broke while transforming them!
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:44 PM   #6
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I honestly wouldn't go for it. I had considered doing this a while back and a couple of things struck me. First, the accountability factor, as mentioned, simply does not exist. If the guitars are built below decent standards, the thing could arrive at your house in pieces, and you won't be getting your money back. Second, a lot of the time the pictures posted on those websites don't represent the instrument you're getting. Just like any guitar retailer, they use stock pictures and sometimes pictures of the real guitars that they are copying. If you're wanting something similar to a Rick, there are plenty of alternatives, such as the Agile Harm, the Indie version, hell, just search the forum and you'll find the posts about this subject.
Anyway, this is just my thought.

Last edited by SteveHOC : 12-13-2012 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:05 PM   #7
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Dillion USA makes one.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:13 PM   #8
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Also, while you call the folks at Rickenbacker "dicks", you should consider the fact that they are a family company who specializes in quality instruments. You may not like that they hold proprietary rights closely, but ultimately it's their original design, and their source of income, so I totally see why they keep a close eye on cheaper copies. A cheap copy can also wreck the good name of Rickenbacker if it claims to have the same specs or technology. Just something to consider, though your whole rant makes you sound pretty close-minded when it comes to respecting other people. I guess the glory of the Internet is that you don't have to say these things to people on person, no real accountability. Actually, in that case, go for it. Enjoy your long-awaited junker, just don't be surprised if the thing breaks when you restring it.

Last edited by SteveHOC : 12-14-2012 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:36 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHOC
Also, while you call the folks at Rickenbacker "dicks", you should consider the fact that they are a family company who specializes in quality instruments. You may not like that they hold proprietary rights closely, but ultimately it's their original design, and their source of income, so I totally see why they keep a close eye on cheaper copies. A cheap copy can also wreck the good name of Rickenbacker if it claims to have the same specs or technology. Just something to consider, though your whole rant makes you sound pretty close-minded when it comes to respecting other people. I guess the glory of the Internet is that you don't have to say these things to people on person, no real accountability. Actually, in that case, go for it. Enjoy your long-awaited junker, just don't be surprised if the thing breaks when you restring it.


Intellectual property rights only matter when one's own intellectual property at stake
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Old 12-14-2012, 08:53 AM   #10
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If you want an inexpensive yet solid Rick copy, look at RondoMusic.com. If you read this forum, you will find their guitars get good reviews, and their customer service is excellent.
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Old 12-14-2012, 09:35 AM   #11
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While it's not counterfeit (because no-one is claiming it's a real Rickenbacker) I still wouldn't trust it. With hollowbodies, cheaping out is a terrible idea.
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Old 12-14-2012, 10:59 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunshine86
Intellectual property rights only matter when one's own intellectual property at stake


I'm not seeing your point. The family owns the rights to their own design.
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Old 12-14-2012, 02:46 PM   #13
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Wow, SteveHOC, I specifically said no moot points. You just had to go a put that second post eh? My points were all valid and I wasn't being offensive at all. I merely wanted to discourage people like you from trying to insult others' (or my) intelligence. I am entitled to my opinion just like anyone else and yes, I would say this face to face, I'm no internet coward. I had a question so I went on the forum here to find answers, big deal!

I don't mean to be a cockhead here, but I am allowed to have a complaint about what I feel is ridiculous pricing and am also allowed to pursue other options, I didn't come here to ask a question about a chinese guitar and buy it anyways, I asked so that I could get some input and hopefully make more of an informed decision. Isn't that what people use forums for in the first place?

And to you dannyalcatraz, if we're going to go all Al Gore here, are you aware that the US is second in the world for emissions and also that they have a MUCH higher EPP than China? Are you also aware that your precious 'green' US of A has plans to cut emissions by a measly 15% whereas China is on a plan to cut them by 40%? While this drywall scandal sucks and all that, I'm not buying drywall, I'm asking about buying a $300 guitar. If I buy a guitar for 300 bucks, I expect 300 dollars of quality. So if anyone has experience or heard of it being not worth the money, I'd like to hear those horror stories.

Just for reference, this website (dhgate) has escrow protection, meaning you pay the website and they don't give the seller the money until you receive your order and are happy with it, so as a result, they have motivation to make sure the product is good. To those who didn't get all defensive and/or claimed I went on a 'little tirade', thank you for your input I am currently still toying with the idea, so any other input would be appreciated! I'll let you know what I end up doing as the days go on.
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Old 12-14-2012, 03:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
And to you dannyalcatraz, if we're going to go all Al Gore here, are you aware that the US is second in the world for emissions and also that they have a MUCH higher EPP than China? Are you also aware that your precious 'green' US of A has plans to cut emissions by a measly 15% whereas China is on a plan to cut them by 40%? While this drywall scandal sucks and all that, I'm not buying drywall, I'm asking about buying a $300 guitar. If I buy a guitar for 300 bucks, I expect 300 dollars of quality. So if anyone has experience or heard of it being not worth the money, I'd like to hear those horror stories.


What do you mean by EPP? (That acronym has about 40 definitions.)

As for American pollution, yes, I'm aware of our flaws. I live in Texas, where the petrochemical and paper industries have enough pull with the locals to run roughshod over EPA regs, at least in the short term.

But understand this: one of the reasons China can cut 40% vs the USA's 15% is that their industrial processes and vehicle emissions are about as dirty as ours were back in the 1960s. They can cut more because they have more to cut. (I have friends who live in Hong Kong who won't go to the mainland because of the pollution, and who look forwards to the "breath of fresh air" when visiting the US.)

The fact is that that Chinese knockoffs (less so the MiC stuff by legit manufacturers) tend to be made with inferior and even dangerous materials in terrible conditions, both for the workers in particular and the environment in general.

As for horror stories, have you read this forum's sticky?
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/foru...d.php?t=1382694
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Last edited by dannyalcatraz : 12-14-2012 at 03:34 PM.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by SteveHOC
I'm not seeing your point. The family owns the rights to their own design.


I was making a sarcastic observation on how people perceive stealing versus being stolen from.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:15 PM   #16
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i'd say you'd probably get exactly 300 dollars of quality.
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Old 12-14-2012, 04:26 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smit0910
I didn't come here to ask a question about a chinese guitar and buy it anyways, I asked so that I could get some input and hopefully make more of an informed decision.

Actually it seems like you kind of did. You don't get to have an opinion and then get mad when other people have other opinions. Declaring an opposing viewpoint "moot" is a weak play.

Anyway, this thread is going nowhere fast and it's pretty clear this thread was just fishing for approval.
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